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Painfully Beautiful Skiing ( Warning: Old School ) - Page 3

post #61 of 89
Thread Starter 

I posted this in another thread, but think it deserves to be here as well - some really smooth and elegant skiing!

 

 

 

I've attempted to auto-start the vid at about the 4 minute mark, but the whole thing is definitely worth watching.

post #62 of 89
Nice! What year is he coaching the kids?
post #63 of 89

Stenmark was the greatest racer of his day in technical events.  He was both efficient and powerful and had remarkable athletic ability.  Killy was so quick and seemed to have the ability to do whatever he wanted...."skimming" the snow.  Not too much edge, unweighting or pressure.  He was a delight to watch free skiing.  Both had remarkable skill and athletic ability but Killy seemed to really enjoy skiing but not sure about Stenmark.

 

Even today you can learn from both about skiing even though today's equipment makes skiing so much easier and effortless.  As a super senior I would not want to go back to those days (too much work) but I appreciate their skiing for what it was....skillful and athletic. The best in their eras. 

 

Bill

post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsimeral View Post
 

Stenmark was the greatest racer of his day in technical events.  He was both efficient and powerful and had remarkable athletic ability.  Killy was so quick and seemed to have the ability to do whatever he wanted...."skimming" the snow.  Not too much edge, unweighting or pressure.  He was a delight to watch free skiing.  Both had remarkable skill and athletic ability but Killy seemed to really enjoy skiing but not sure about Stenmark.

 

Even today you can learn from both about skiing even though today's equipment makes skiing so much easier and effortless.  As a super senior I would not want to go back to those days (too much work) but I appreciate their skiing for what it was....skillful and athletic. The best in their eras. 

 

Bill


Racers circa 76-84 worshipped the ground Stenmark skied on.  By the late 80s, anybody with any race training was using the step turn, and like any "technique" many overdid it, sometimes in ugly ways.  Mainly, it was over-emphasized vertically (as in lifting the step high).  I thought there was a limit to how overt the technique should be -- really the point was to minimize the vertical motion and maximize the horizontal step when running gates.   But the step was absolutely critical to achieving the correct line between gates using the skis with impossible sidecut.

post #65 of 89

That's correct.  I was coaching in that era and stepping was more efficient with long, straight skis.  As you point out it could be overdone causing other problems.  The advent of shorter shaped skis was timely for me and has made old age skiing much more enjoyable.  I no longer race or even run gates due to avoid falling with my unusual disability. 

 

Bill

post #66 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Nice! What year is he coaching the kids?

 

I believe that film was produced in 1974. There's a copyright notice near the beginning, but it's a little hard to read.

 

Found this related info from Ski Magazine January 1977.

post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by parabolic View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsimeral View Post

 
Stenmark was the greatest racer of his day in technical events.  He was both efficient and powerful and had remarkable athletic ability.  Killy was so quick and seemed to have the ability to do whatever he wanted...."skimming" the snow.  Not too much edge, unweighting or pressure.  He was a delight to watch free skiing.  Both had remarkable skill and athletic ability but Killy seemed to really enjoy skiing but not sure about Stenmark.

Even today you can learn from both about skiing even though today's equipment makes skiing so much easier and effortless.  As a super senior I would not want to go back to those days (too much work) but I appreciate their skiing for what it was....skillful and athletic. The best in their eras. 

Bill


Racers circa 76-84 worshipped the ground Stenmark skied on.  By the late 80s, anybody with any race training was using the step turn, and like any "technique" many overdid it, sometimes in ugly ways.  Mainly, it was over-emphasized vertically (as in lifting the step high).  I thought there was a limit to how overt the technique should be -- really the point was to minimize the vertical motion and maximize the horizontal step when running gates.   But the step was absolutely critical to achieving the correct line between gates using the skis with impossible sidecut.

If one is stepping close to the fall line it would seem to add speed or not detract. If you step uphill more across the fall line it would seemingly add time.
In one of the Travis Ganong vids he talks about in speed skiing trying to release in the fall line if possible. (he says "down the hill") Seems similar to the step in fall line.

Here's Ganong. About 50 sec he talks about it.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ib99OFhDibI


Edited by Tog - 1/5/16 at 2:30pm
post #68 of 89

See 1:15 for an example of a well-executed step, showing why it was critical for getting the correct line between tightly-spaced gates.  See the final second for an illustration of how the step turn became exaggerated in free skiing.

 

post #69 of 89
Thread Starter 

Posted this vid in the thread opener back when...

 

 

Skiing some rutted/bumpy, deep-ish, semi-heavy fresh snow recently and got to thinking about Killy, couple things in particular...

 

In the video above starting about 3:46 is what I guess you could call Killy's version of a short swing turn, moving up and out of the snow to redirect his skis, and then carving/steering them across the fall line, staying close to it as he moves down the hill in a fairly narrow corridor. Much smoother than the typical frenetic, hop-turny short swing often seen. ( Yes, I know it's slo-mo. Still... ;-)

 

And then at 4:18 he's seen in bumpy, ungroomed snow making a series of round, larger radius turns which are characterized by an erect but extremely relaxed stance, arms held wide and high for balance, strong but loose legs that absorb everything that comes his way, and seemingly effortless yet absolute determination to hold his line.

 

Strong, smooth, determined, relaxed! I love that kind of inner game contrast exemplified by his skiing. And I love holding those images of Killy in my mind as I myself ski in similar conditions, trying to emulate him as best I can. Still an excellent role model, IMHO.

 

Understandable, I guess, but nonetheless sad he gave up skiing completely in 1998.

post #70 of 89
He says in that clip that he last skied in 1988! Just can't go ladi da on the hill.
Skiing History has a good article now on Killy's 1967 Wcup season. Just amazing.
At Kitzbuhel, Wengen, Canon, NH and Vail,CO he won all the races.
post #71 of 89
Thread Starter 
Typo on my part, thx for catching that. Yes, 1988!

What amazing domination during his heyday!
post #72 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Skiing History has a good article now on Killy's 1967 Wcup season. Just amazing.
At Kitzbuhel, Wengen, Canon, NH and Vail,CO he won all the races.

 

https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/killy%E2%80%99s-winter-never-equaled

post #73 of 89
That's not that long after the Sybervision skiing of Killy in that clip. As an aside, @Philpug is friends with Chris Ryman or Jens Husted who ski with Killy in the Sybervision tape.
post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

That's not that long after the Sybervision skiing of Killy in that clip.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.  I bought the Sybervision tapes in 1988 and I thought they had just come out.

post #75 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

He says in that clip that he last skied in 1988! Just can't go ladi da on the hill.
Skiing History has a good article now on Killy's 1967 Wcup season. Just amazing.
At Kitzbuhel, Wengen, Canon, NH and Vail,CO he won all the races.

Sad that.

 

I ski for the pleasure of every moment.  Thrills, spills, chills, and nills.

post #76 of 89
Somewhere I remember seeing a date for that. Might have been on the tape. I belive it was shot at Beaver Creek. 1982 or 83. I think. Pretty sure I posted it on epic.
I've always felt that Killy was dealing with serious back issues in the Sybervision skiing.
post #77 of 89
Thread Starter 

Tog, your memory is good.   ;-)

 

 

http://www.sybervision.com/Skiing

 

What made you think Killy had back problems?

post #78 of 89
Quote:
What made you think Killy had back problems?
On the Sybervisions he skis with a very straight back. It looks a little unnatural.
post #79 of 89

I sincerely believe that those Sybervision videos were a huge part in my growth as a skier.

post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post

Maybe I'll take a crack at the translation for skiers who were born after 1990...

The world of skiing and skiing equipment revolved around ski racing from the 1950's through at least 2000.  Ski racing was the only thing that mattered in terms of equipment and technique through that entire time.

In the Killy/Stenmark/(even Tomba) days, all the equipment out there - even SLALOM racing skis - had design radii (that's the plural of radius) of more than 40 meters.  That meant there was no way (as in zero possibility) of making a pure carved turn that would take the World Cup racer into the proper position for the next gate on a slalom or even giant slalom course.  That's why stepping uphill or lateral projection or skating (or whatever) was required to get the world-class racer into position to make the next gate.  It allowed the racer to carve part of the turn and then physically step uphill to get back high enough to make the next gate.

The first tiny step in the evolution of shaped and fun-shape skis that we're all enjoying today came from the racing world's shift to skis that could actually be tipped over onto their edges and fully CARVED into the next turn.  The Elan SCX started the revolution but Bode Miller put an exclamation point on the division by winning the GS (I think) in the Junior Olympic Nationals in 1996 on K2 Fours, which were the most RADICAL skis on the market at the time.

Bode was inspired by the snowboarding racer carvers who were appearing on the scene at the time.  At the same time, boarders were ripping big-mountain descents that even ski-to-die extreme skiers couldn't imagine because the boards gave turn radius and platform advantages that skis had never offered.

Pretty soon, boarders took off in their own direction while ski racers absolutely ATE UP the shorter turn radii that were being offered by some of the ski companies.  The changes in carving skis revolutionized ski racing to the point that racers became so fast that courses became unsafe and the design parameters of the skis had to be dumbed down to keep the newly-insane racers from maiming and killing themselves.  At the same time, ski companies started going fatter and fatter with recreational skis as they started to mimic the fun shapes that boarders were throwing into the backcountry world (specifically Alaska backcountry heli-access riding). 

All of this led to the current state of free-for-all.  The racing world has gotten faster and faster.  The recreational skiing world has exploded with innumerable shapes for every possible subset of snow and terrain.  And the universe of ski equipment has benefited enormously from all this insane feedback from across the skiing spectrum IN SPITE OF the rantings from dinosaurs like me who used to believe that skiers who have learned how to ski the "right" way should be able to ski any condition and any terrain with any ski.

With all of that as background, it's still really cool to see what Stenmark and Killy were capable of in their day and to marvel at what heights they might have reached if they'd had today's skis to work with.  

Funny finding this. Yes I agree. Interesting though we have ALMOST come full circle and have increased the length and radius near to those old days. I don't think the technique of today (race wise) if the old ski went directly to the current ski design, would be as effective and refined as it is. We needed that radical change and swing back (though not all the way) to reach the best performance.

I'm going to go out a limb and predict we are going to see minor tweaks for several years before any major swing starts again (truely radical concept), at this point we are going to see injuries again.

Next cycle. Equipment chases tachinque, technique chases equipment.
post #81 of 89
Radii are changing for next year down to 30m for men in gs.
The original change was for safety. Allegedly.
Athletes talk about the 35 m the summer before season started:
https://youtu.be/C7HtEUEfzTE
post #82 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lofcaudio View Post
 

I sincerely believe that those Sybervision videos were a huge part in my growth as a skier.

 

If you haven't come across it before you might find this thread interesting.

post #83 of 89
Thread Starter 

I posted this elsewhere on the board years ago, but still find this vid fascinating...

 

 

Love the no poles tip roll at 3:50, and of course the long stylish descent toward the end - Sui Generis!  ;-)

 

Skier's name is Bernard Garcia. Found some more on him here...

 

http://www.mountainlifemedia.ca/2014/12/straight/


Edited by jc-ski - 4/8/17 at 7:05pm
post #84 of 89

Well Bernard is certainly... interesting.

 

Maybe Tonya Harding ruined his skating career too and he had to settle for doing tricks on 205's.

post #85 of 89
Thread Starter 

Those who can do ballet well obviously have tremendous balance and edging skills, plus a joyful, playful creativity that brings the moves to life. All that translates to good skiing, and a love of skiing. I have trouble understanding why it seems to be so reviled. I imagine over time it will be rediscovered and embraced again.

 

Mssr. Garcia, with all the things he shows he can do on skis, I suspect was, (and perhaps still is), one of the best skiers on the mountain.

 

Really, what's not to like?

post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

I posted this elsewhere on the board years ago, but still find this vid fascinating...




Love the no poles tip roll at 3:50, and of course the long stylish descent toward the end - Sui Generis!  ;-)

Skier's name is Bernard Garcia. Found some more on him here...

http://www.mountainlifemedia.ca/2014/12/straight/
We needed that clip when @edgebyter was talking about skiing on the tails and developing a manifesto.
post #87 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

Those who can do ballet well obviously have tremendous balance and edging skills, plus a joyful, playful creativity that brings the moves to life. All that translates to good skiing, and a love of skiing. I have trouble understanding why it seems to be so reviled. I imagine over time it will be rediscovered and embraced again.

 

Mssr. Garcia, with all the things he shows he can do on skis, I suspect was, (and perhaps still is), one of the best skiers on the mountain.

 

Really, what's not to like?


I'm sure he's quite accomplished but it's not a personal criticism. It's just too contrived, like doing yoga on a giant SUP.

post #88 of 89
Thread Starter 

Ha, yea, I guess, but I still think he rules!   ;-)

 

This other vid was buried in the article linked to earlier, for anyone who didn't get to it...

 

 

This is what he was skiing on...

 


 Anyone familiar with that ski? It didn't look very long.

post #89 of 89

It must be something when one has such mastery of the medium that artistic expression becomes unconventional.

 

Does "just skiing" become boring?,,,

 

Sure looks like this guy is having fun!

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