What the hell is a "slarvy" turn?

Slide + Carve = Slarve

McConkey Turn

See: Fully rockered ski powder turns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Saunders 

I was watching some freeskiing or freeriding (or whatever) competitions on "on demand" and the announcer kept referring to some of the people's turns as "slarvy" turns.  What does that mean?  I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just my opinion, but I didn't think that the turns he was calling "slarvy" were particularly good turns.  I think the announcer meant it as a compliment though.  I think he was even saying "nice slarvy turns". 

whats a good turn?

Read this: http://unofficialnetworks.com/2009/01/26/brain-floss-by-shane-mcconkey-reverse-camber-powder-skis/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinecure 

Slide + Carve = Slarve

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?  

By "slide", I assume you must mean to slip sideways because the ski is almost always sliding down the running surface, and in a pure "carved" turn, the only sliding that should be going on would be on the base directly tracking with the edge of the ski.

I just don't understand how a ski both slides sideways AND carves at the same time.  In my - perhaps antiquated - definition of carving, there is no sideways sliding.  If there IS any sideways sliding, it's a skidded turn. So does "slarving" require a new and different definition of carving?

It seems to me that sideways sliding and skidding are essentially the same thing.  So is something that would be a skidded turn on a groomer simply a "slarved" turn if you're doing it in powder or soft snow?  

Here we go again.

In a nutshell, 'slarvy' can refer to a turn that might start as a carve, then a controlled slide to adjust one's line or control speed, and then re-engage in a carve or more active arc... of course no one is doing a pure carve in deep powder anyway, but hopefully that explains it a bit. It's a great skill to have when skiing aggressively in steep terrain with obstacles; trees, rocks, a short chute, etc...  When you use the word 'skidding' Blake, it connotes a lack of ability and technique. For big mountain pro free skiers and skilled amateurs, the slide is controlled and very precisely so.  I'm guessing if we saw a current video of Scot Schmit skiing on modern gear, he'd be doing some slarving. It wasn't possible on skinny skis. Watch someone like Jeremy Nobis who has the whole package. His turn type is clearly by choice and not by any lack of technique or physical strength. All that said, I enjoy watching old film of Scot S, Mike Hattrup, and even JC Killy for that matter. Great skiers all. If you could call them up and ask, I'm guessing they think pretty highly of what the youngsters are doing on the mountains these days as well. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Saunders 

 

I like a high energy, athletic, carved turn with minimal sliding.  I don't relate well to some style changes that have come about in recent years in the sport.  To me, a Scot Scmidt or Mike Hattrup turn is more impressive than a new school half-slid turn.  At the time when ski movies showed guys like Hattrup, or Rob Deslauriers, or Kirk Jensen.... there seemed to be a lot more interest in how a person's turn looked.  Nowadays in the movies, it's like if you don't fall between jumps in powder you're doing fine : ) 

 

 

so BTW your video showed some good skiing that is not aft balance in powder its actually pretty forward and central. also Your turns were not Scot Scmith or haltrup or any of the new school type stuff.  They are pretty nice dnyamic carves. Your body follows alittle to much when your not in the bump and in the bumps you rotary separation comes from you spine to your pelvis and not from you femur to you pelvis.

The thing is you can stil do 100 percent carved turns on the new stuff. without sliding much at all, the new stuff just make the possibility of sliding better if you want. There are clear times while skiing woods here at stowe that you would want that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Saunders 

 

I like a high energy, athletic, carved turn with minimal sliding.  I don't relate well to some style changes that have come about in recent years in the sport.  To me, a Scot Scmidt or Mike Hattrup turn is more impressive than a new school half-slid turn.  At the time when ski movies showed guys like Hattrup, or Rob Deslauriers, or Kirk Jensen.... there seemed to be a lot more interest in how a person's turn looked.  Nowadays in the movies, it's like if you don't fall between jumps in powder you're doing fine : ) 

 

 

I don't think you can compare hop turning steeps with the way today's freeski competitors would ski the same lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markojp 

In a nutshell, 'slarvy' can refer to a turn that might start as a carve, then a controlled slide to adjust one's line or control speed, and then re-engage in a carve or more active arc... of course no one is doing a pure carve in deep powder anyway, but hopefully that explains it a bit. It's a great skill to have when skiing aggressively in steep terrain with obstacles; trees, rocks, a short chute, etc...  When you use the word 'skidding' Blake, it connotes a lack of ability and technique. For big mountain pro free skiers and skilled amateurs, the slide is controlled and very precisely so.  

Okay.  I'll buy that to some degree although I'm still not sure there's much carving going on in what I typically see described on the hill as a slarved turn.

So, how is a slarved turn different from a smeared (or buttered) turn?  

As a nit-picky language watchdog, I think smeared describes the turn much better without invoking a somewhat phony carve connotation.

Yeah, I'll go with that. Slarvey (schmerey?) is the word of the day... something new to keep the thesaurus people in business. 

If you are driving the progression of the sport, you can't simply side slip, you have to release the edge in a way that has revolutionary implications.    

I don't deny or object that every generation enjoys the feeling making their own way toward a unique style. It's healthy for skiers and the sport. Heck, at one time we thought lifting the inside ski in the turn was our version of "racy" or "steezy" (may work).

edit:

I'll say that the new powder turn is more flowing, and the shape of the arc is controlled by buttering the edges; unlike the platform turns made in powder 10 years ago.

as EC describes earlier technique, hop turns on steeps, it is a different skiing altogether. those turns were often used in spring corn or packed powder, first of all, and in terrain that was so steep that it had always been considered unskiable. when skiing was advancing in those days, it was happening in France a lot, and the exposure was wicked. A skier making his mark in the area of skiing the impossibly steep had to establish total control with every turn. You would not have the opportunity to correct a false move, a missed turn, a crossed tip, and caught edge, a rotating shoulder. The platform allowed the skier to control the speed with every turn, coming nearly to a stop, or holding 10mph, or whatever choice was made for the terrain. what I'm saying, a different turn for a different goal. These buttered turns are all for fun for most of us, some extreme steep applications in powder as well, but never to replace the technique Bettancourt pioneered in Chamonix.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?  

 

By "slide", I assume you must mean to slip sideways because the ski is almost always sliding down the running surface, and in a pure "carved" turn, the only sliding that should be going on would be on the base directly tracking with the edge of the ski.

 

I just don't understand how a ski both slides sideways AND carves at the same time.  In my - perhaps antiquated - definition of carving, there is no sideways sliding.  If there IS any sideways sliding, it's a skidded turn. So does "slarving" require a new and different definition of carving?

 

It seems to me that sideways sliding and skidding are essentially the same thing.  So is something that would be a skidded turn on a groomer simply a "slarved" turn if you're doing it in powder or soft snow?  

 

Tires can grip, or they can slip. A good driver can control the vehicle when the tires are slipping, as well as gripping. Most of the time it's better to have the tires gripping. But there are times when it's better to have the tires slipping. It's definitely more fun with the tires slipping.

So...

I know you can't SEE the actual turn(s) because it's a POV, but in the video you can sort of feel it.  I know what each one felt like and what the purpose was.  What term would you use to describe the turns that start at 3:04 and 3:10 in this video?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

 

Okay.  I'll buy that to some degree although I'm still not sure there's much carving going on in what I typically see described on the hill as a slarved turn.

So, how is a slarved turn different from a smeared (or buttered) turn?  

 

As a nit-picky language watchdog, I think smeared describes the turn much better without invoking a somewhat phony carve connotation.

 

A pure carve is a fine ideal, in the real world a pure carve is possible when the skier has the ability to hit mach one where mortals will drift their carve a bit to remain amongst the living.

The new funshapes can carve where the ski is meant to carve, the rockered tip/tail will not be engaged in that act, but simultaneously do pickup loose snow adjacent to the carved line, these bits of snow fly off the edge very much like a skid.

Hence, slarving.

This flavor is sweet, and addictive.  More/less edge angle/foot steering leads to a creamier feel, buttery, smeary, and cakefrosting sensations are an accurate description once you take the plunge.

Once you go slarve, you never go back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttinski 

A pure carve is a fine ideal, in the real world a pure carve is possible when the skier has the ability to hit mach one where mortals will drift their carve a bit to remain amongst the living.

 

The new funshapes can carve where the ski is meant to carve, the rockered tip/tail will not be engaged in that act, but simultaneously do pickup loose snow adjacent to the carved line, these bits of snow fly off the edge very much like a skid.

 

Hence, slarving.

 

This flavor is sweet, and addictive.  More/less edge angle/foot steering leads to a creamier feel, buttery, smeary, and cakefrosting sensations are an accurate description once you take the plunge.

 

Once you go slarve, you never go back.

Do I need to point out the obvious that a pure carve can be continued (some would say "completed") across the hill and even UPhill to the point where gravity starts working against you and your speed decreases?  That *is* another way to remain amongst the living.

Not arguing with you about how much fun smearing/buttering turns can be and I'm not arguing that the new ski shapes don't make it easier to accomplish.  I do believe, however, that a good skier can do it with relatively narrow, conventional-cambered skis.  It's NOT a new skill.
 

Pretty sure it can not be done in the same manner on more conventional skis. On a pair of narrower slalomy skis, all of the issues McConkey wrote about come into play.

A fatter reverse ski is already in its turning shape - or largely so -  & substantial force can be redirected into the turn due to the surface area. A cambered narrow ski can not apply nearly as much force to the snow without pushing through. And much of the force in play is needed to decamber the ski (not even getting into stability issues). Thus a head Supershape can in no way ski soft snow the way any Spatula derived ski can. To claim that it can is the exact equivalent of claiming a Spatula type ski can ski glaze ice as well as a Supershape. And even I won't go there - although I suppose you could try to make a case that a good skier can do it...  

One that gets you where you want to go and the rest is just semantics in my book. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

whats a good turn?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?  

 

By "slide", I assume you must mean to slip sideways because the ski is almost always sliding down the running surface, and in a pure "carved" turn, the only sliding that should be going on would be on the base directly tracking with the edge of the ski.

 

I just don't understand how a ski both slides sideways AND carves at the same time.  In my - perhaps antiquated - definition of carving, there is no sideways sliding.  If there IS any sideways sliding, it's a skidded turn. So does "slarving" require a new and different definition of carving?

 

It seems to me that sideways sliding and skidding are essentially the same thing.  So is something that would be a skidded turn on a groomer simply a "slarved" turn if you're doing it in powder or soft snow?  

 

the term slarve is used only because some people are attached to the connotation of "out of control" they attach to the word skid, because the context in which they have heard skid in their lives is for the most part restricted to "out of control".  A drifted turn would also serve the purpose, and yes, I seam to be able to recall being able to drift turns at will in powder on skinny skis (although it's been a few decades since I tried).  It is easier to drift turns at higher speeds than slower speeds, and easier on hard pack than cut-up heavy wet snow, and obviously easier in deep snow when using shorter fatter skis with tails and tips lifted out of the snow than on long stiff cambered skinny race skis.   However, long and stiff equipment is still very satisfying if you know how to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

So...

 

I know you can't SEE the actual turn(s) because it's a POV, but in the video you can sort of feel it.  I know what each one felt like and what the purpose was.  What term would you use to describe the turns that start at 3:04 and 3:10 in this video?

 

 

Hmmm - how about "smear" or "slide"?  That term would work for me.

The entire video,though, would be described as "great" - a very nice way to ease into fall as we wait for snow.

Watching, it was easy to imagine how we might ski that terrain ourselves - "wait, why didn't he turn there?"

Thanks for posting the video,    rickp
 

This reminds me of the various mogul threads we have had over the summer where people insist they are carving the moguls.

I am with Ghost, Dav and maybe a few other people. If a guy were "slaving" while skiing short slalom skis on hard pack I would call it skidding. The reason I call it slarving in powder is because skidding has a negative connotation and there its alot easier to be understood using the agreed upon vocabulary. This is particularly the case given the persistent illusion that skidding sucks and is poor technique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Saunders 

I was watching some freeskiing or freeriding (or whatever) competitions on "on demand" and the announcer kept referring to some of the people's turns as "slarvy" turns.  What does that mean?  I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just my opinion, but I didn't think that the turns he was calling "slarvy" were particularly good turns.  I think the announcer meant it as a compliment though.  I think he was even saying "nice slarvy turns". 

If you think the freeride skiing seen in the comps is unimpressive and not an example of good turns, then I would suggest your opinion at the very least needs to be recalibrated for the new decade since you seem to have trouble recognising great skiing.

Nice side country video.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Peters 

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?  

 

By "slide", I assume you must mean to slip sideways because the ski is almost always sliding down the running surface, and in a pure "carved" turn, the only sliding that should be going on would be on the base directly tracking with the edge of the ski.

 

I just don't understand how a ski both slides sideways AND carves at the same time.  In my - perhaps antiquated - definition of carving, there is no sideways sliding.  If there IS any sideways sliding, it's a skidded turn. So does "slarving" require a new and different definition of carving?

 

It seems to me that sideways sliding and skidding are essentially the same thing.  So is something that would be a skidded turn on a groomer simply a "slarved" turn if you're doing it in powder or soft snow?  

 

Skidding, slarving, tomatoe, tomato.  The answer to your question is yes.

It;s the most fun turn you can make on a pair of skis :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake Saunders 

I was watching some freeskiing or freeriding (or whatever) competitions on "on demand" and the announcer kept referring to some of the people's turns as "slarvy" turns.  What does that mean?  I'm not sure if this is relevant, or just my opinion, but I didn't think that the turns he was calling "slarvy" were particularly good turns.  I think the announcer meant it as a compliment though.  I think he was even saying "nice slarvy turns". 

Hey Bob Peters,i'm sitting here at my computer with my beer my elbow on the desk and my knuckles buried in my chin thinking you are one lucky dog;best video iv'e seen on epic nice!

this is a slarve....it's the mandatory after-bang gorilla sounds that make it so ..

actually it's the :07 - :08 second mark that makes it so (use the pause button):