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Skidding Sucks. Rant: Physics, Rockers, and Hard Snow (Ice). - Page 4

post #91 of 187

Some of us can actually carve on the fat f-ers. Years of racing on icy slopes came in handy I guess. Sorry you can't.

 

It's an awesome feeling putting in fast GS turns on a powder day or even mashing through push piles without a pause. Watching the stoic, a-hole Austrian ski team flying down the hill on fatties a couple summers ago in Chile and actually hearing them laugh was amazing (they still cut in line and, I believe, ate babies for dinner).

 

Here's a pic of some guy finishing a carve, but to each his/her own. I'll continue to make slopes icy.

 

carving.jpg

post #92 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

There is a sad irony about rockered skis that mirrors the situation on beginner slopes, the more you slide, skid, slarve your turns, the icier it makes the snow, which encourages more sliding of your turns, which leads to an icier slope, which . . .

 

Perhaps the future will be created by skidders like nogophers who will eventually make the slopes so hard and icy that carving on narrow skis will return as the preferred way to ski.  Now that would be ironic.



You probably still get mad when you see a snowboarder.

post #93 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by nogophers View Post

Some of us can actually carve on the fat f-ers. Years of racing on icy slopes came in handy I guess. Sorry you can't.

 

It's an awesome feeling putting in fast GS turns on a powder day or even mashing through push piles without a pause. Watching the stoic, a-hole Austrian ski team flying down the hill on fatties a couple summers ago in Chile and actually hearing them laugh was amazing (they still cut in line and, I believe, ate babies for dinner).

 

Here's a pic of some guy finishing a carve, but to each his/her own. I'll continue to make slopes icy.

 


Let me know when the Austrian Ski Team starts racing on 110 mm waisted skis.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

You probably still get mad when you see a snowboarder.

 

 

Yes, but only at the 90% of snowboarders that skid 100% of their turns.

post #94 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post

Let me know when the Austrian Ski Team starts racing on 110 mm waisted skis. 

 

 

Yes, but only at the 90% of snowboarders that skid 100% of their turns.



Maybe they were just having fun.....Novel concept.

post #95 of 187

OK, 

 

Skidding sucks, skidding as in a hockey stop action to do anything other than str8line point-em to where yer goin skidding sucks.

 

The only folks I see doing this are park rats headed to their tricks and jumps.

 

As a "skier" who "got down" the blacks for years and years, I found old school skiing boring, and quit altogether to indulge a sick alpine climbing career.

 

The advent of shapes, and the stylistic carving lured me back to the spinning bullwheel.  

 

Even then, I still managed my down the blacks when not carving up the cruisers at warp seven.

 

As a carving purist, the perfect tracks ego boost led to an aversion to skidding. 

 

It took getting in literal touch with my tips, or more accurately the edges of my tips that got me down with phase one of the turn.  Drifting that top noon to ten/three area of the circle led to control at the bottom half, viola! repetitive fall line turns, in control, in the steeps.

 

That and the twisting action of a spine over the pelvis led to a mogul addiction.

 

Toss in some nice rocker and a bit of underfoot support, and you have fun in all terrain, and all conditions.

 

Drifting the carve scrubs speed off when you need, and glides a sweet g force when you don't. the best of both worlds.   

 

Without the newschool funshapes I would not know the sweet creamy feel of smears and slarves. I doubt that I'll ever go back to full camber, at least if I'm parting with my cash for some boards.

 

The new skis do get kids in situations where they do not necessarily belong, but while experience leads to skill, I must suggest that everyone take a lesson or two to really take advantage of the new style boards.

post #96 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

Maybe they were just having fun.....Novel concept.


 

...and fun makes old farts very MAD.

post #97 of 187



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

Maybe they were just having fun.....Novel concept.


 

...and fun makes old farts very MAD.


I thought it was wind storms that made old farts mad?  Not sure what relevance flatulence has to this thread thou.  Seems you guys are ducking and weaving for cover here as fast and as hard as you can.

 

So lets see: what are your counter arguments so far:

 

Skiing with skills is no fun...(which is ridiculous)

Edit - forgot- you also went with the "we are stubborn" angle too

Then you kinda repeated that for 2 pages

Um, I am "bragging without bragging" cause I explained how fat skis came about, and showed one of the worlds best "extreme skiers" is a former pro ski racer

More of the no fun angle.....

 

What do you bring up next?  Flatulence.

 

Wow, you seriously seem to scrapping the bottom of the barrel here guys.....ski.gif

 

 

 


 

 


Edited by Skidude72 - 10/18/11 at 4:24pm
post #98 of 187



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nogophers View Post

Some of us can actually carve on the fat f-ers. Years of racing on icy slopes came in handy I guess. Sorry you can't.

 

It's an awesome feeling putting in fast GS turns on a powder day or even mashing through push piles without a pause. Watching the stoic, a-hole Austrian ski team flying down the hill on fatties a couple summers ago in Chile and actually hearing them laugh was amazing (they still cut in line and, I believe, ate babies for dinner).

 

Here's a pic of some guy finishing a carve, but to each his/her own. I'll continue to make slopes icy.

 

carving.jpg



I actually couldnt figure your post out.  Ex-racer turned big mountain skier....seems everyone here agrees that is a great combo, (hey its bragging for me to say this apparently) but you would be in good company (Seth, Kaj etc)  if it were true.

 

No way would an ex-racer not recognise a picture of ballet skiing and worse confuse it for carving.  ROTF.gif

 

You know what is really funny and perhaps ironic?  Ballet skiing was part of freestyle back in the day....fat skis are driver behind the new freestyle movement.  Ballet was always seen by many as kinda lame....kinda how many see the low performance fat skiers of today.  Ironicaly it is actually you who is the modern version, of that guy! 

 

I love how you guys keep shooting yourself in the foot.  Hey this wasnt nearly as bad as the Kaj video (still chuckling to myself over that one), but your lack of knowledge and experience of skiing is apparent. 

 

post #99 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toecutter View Post

Holy fuck you're stupid.

 



Maybe, but I am sure people would rather be stuck in the gondola with someone who is stupid rather then someone who is gassy.

 

 

I think this thread is done.

 

post #100 of 187

Good skiing is good skiing.

 

Funshapes make skidding in pow so fun, I even think I would call it good skiing when used appropriately. 


Edited by tromano - 10/18/11 at 7:19pm
post #101 of 187
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

I think this thread is done.

 


Yep.

 

post #102 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

 

Um, I am "bragging without bragging" cause I explained how fat skis came about, and showed one of the worlds best "extreme skiers" is a former pro ski racer

More of the no fun angle.....

 

What do you bring up next?  Flatulence.

 

Wow, you seriously seem to scrapping the bottom of the barrel here guys.....ski.gif

 

 

 

 

 


       Sorry that you interpreted my post that way. We're all anxious to ski as well.

 

post #103 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

       Sorry that you interpreted my post that way. We're all anxious to ski as well.

 



Um, that wasn't referring to you in anyway....someone else actually made the statement.

 

post #104 of 187

There is a misconception that people are saying a race background is not beneficial, or that carving good turns is not a good skill to have, and that is so false. I have said it multiple times. No one ever makes a thread putting down people who focus on having solid fundamentals. But we get tons of threads from people to stuck in their ways to believe that anything other than what they are doing could be considered good or fun skiing.

 

 

post #105 of 187


this quote and comment referred to remind me of sweeping up after an event when everyone's gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Um, that wasn't referring to you in anyway....someone else actually made the statement.

 



 

post #106 of 187
Um... ice skates are ROCKERED. Check out this site: http://noicingsports.com/skate_radius_profiling.html

As far as skiing goes rocker predates camber. The skiers of the altai mountains in china have been using long wide rockered skis with skins (literaly horse skins) for thousands of years. Unlike western ski culture their skis were developed to climb and decend steep, snowy mountains. Ours were designed to travel across flater terain. Still, many of the ancient western designs were rockered also.

Camber was basicaly invented for a beter kick while walking/skating. It puts a spring in your step. Incidentaly, beter camber makes a beter cross country ski. What has been considered proper technique fron the time Howard Head invented the multilaminate ski in 1950 and Bob Lange invented the plastic boot in 1959 until the shaped ski was developed around 1991 was essentialy to make a cross country ski perform on a downhill. The "push the tail/drive the tip" technique was developed in order to 1. Transfer weight from the final contact point at the tail to the initial contact point at the tip in order to not catch an edge and 2. To forceably flex the tip into a turn. On a rockered ski the "hot spots" are moved to the center, thus CLOSER to the foot. A simple roll of the ski from one edge to the other is all it takes to not only initiate, but fully ingage a turn.

So, rockered skis actualy carve MORE like an ice skate. The lack of edge hold that has been a common complaint was not due to a failing of rocker, but the rocker not working in unison with the sidecut radius. If you edge and pressure a shaped ski it bends into an arc. If the rocker exceeds that arc, then you loose edge pressure. Since edge grip wasn't a concern with "powder centeric" skis they were often too straight for the rocker or too rockered for the sidecut, depending on how you look at it.

It has long been known that rocker and zero camber help with quick, precise, catch free turns. Pro only boardercross boards were often built camber free. A local shop had a rockered slalom ski on display from a botique brand back in the days of the volant spatula. If you read up on inventions in ski shape you wil find that rocker pops up often, but untill snowboarding broke the otrhodoxy of the industry it was always a dirty little secret. Finaly ski companies are "comming out of the closet" and they are openly embracing their camber free side, so much so that this year volkl has even fully rockered their all mountain carvers and proper rocker profiles for the frontside are becoming the norm.
post #107 of 187

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Work View Post

I hope you guys don't mind that I'm going to complain about whatever the newest thing out is that threatens my self-percieved superiority.

 

How dare someone come out with something that makes my favorite thing more fun.  That's complete crap, they should be ashamed of themselves. 

 

 

   

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

 But the segment who lives and dies by the carve can't stop shitting on how everyone else has fun. These are the kind of people that needed snowboarding to save the winter sports industry. Luckily people came along and made skiing fun again.

 

I ski with all sorts. We all get down the hill differently, and are all stoked on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

you need less technique sure but its going to make new turn shapes possible in soft snow that were never possible prior or extremely difficult to pull off. drifting in powder is extremely hard on narrower skis.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post

Ecimortal, Finndog, Tromano and others trying to argue with the OP (obvious troll) and SkiDude, I don't think you fully understand the point of this thread.

 

The point is that they want you to acknowledge their superiority. To get you to understand just how much better they are than the rest of the skiing community, they shit on the equipment and technique of those they consider weak skiers and use unrealistic examples to illustrate what they consider to be good skiing (usually, WC racers or other professional skiers). By focusing on an aspect of the former that does not fit their own situation (e.g., equipment they do not use), they exclude themselves from the weak group, thus implying de facto inclusion in the strong group.

 

It's bragging without actually bragging.

 

 

 

 

It would be like if I said modern tennis rackets are for crap players who can't hit properly and that real players still use wood, with my proof being that Roger Federer could beat 99% of all tennis players in the world with a wood frame. By associating rackets I don't like with weaker players, I exclude myself from that group (after all, if I were a weak player, I'd be using the same crutches as all those other hacks). And, by saying a world-class player can beat most people with the rackets I use, I imply that I am a really good player without directly saying it.

 

Bragging without bragging.

 



 

post #108 of 187

and this post too!  Thanks TC.  

 

While driving back to DIA from the boat yesterday coming across the pass with 9" of fresh I was thinking about this thread, it seems like we need to ski....
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post

If I'm understanding this correctly, this thread from 2 years ago had a similar message.

http://www.epicski.com/t/82069/big-skis-cant-ski

 

Reality is, there are some people who like to embrace different ski technologies, from skinnier skis that let you bend 'em, carving it up like turkey at thanksgiving, to fat/rockered/funshaped skis that reward schmeering  and float.

 

I've skied with some bears who prefer fun shapes and don't have a desire to bend a ski or make a real turn.  That's okay.

I've skied with some bears who prefer skis on the narrower side, and shred the crap out of the whole mountain.  That's okay too.

 

All in all, I think the skier who has honed his/her skills on traditionally shaped skis with precision and accuracy is more likely to enjoy the whole mountain, no matter what he/she is on.

 

If the skier who has embraced fun shaped skis at the exclusion of honing his/her skills encounters marginal conditions, he/she's not likely to have much fun.  Just sayin'



 

post #109 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

Not at all. But the segment who lives and dies by the carve can't stop shitting on how everyone else has fun. These are the kind of people that needed snowboarding to save the winter sports industry. Luckily people came along and made skiing fun again.

 

I ski with all sorts. We all get down the hill differently, and are all stoked on it.

 



Again?

 

I've been having fun skiing for 40+ years, sorry to hear you had stopped.......equipment didn't change anything, we were skiing and smiling then and are still skiing and smiling now  biggrin.gif

 

 

post #110 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipunkx View Post


Um... ice skates are ROCKERED. Check out this site: http://noicingsports.com/skate_radius_profiling.html
As far as skiing goes rocker predates camber. The skiers of the altai mountains in china have been using long wide rockered skis with skins (literaly horse skins) for thousands of years. Unlike western ski culture their skis were developed to climb and decend steep, snowy mountains. Ours were designed to travel across flater terain. Still, many of the ancient western designs were rockered also.
Camber was basicaly invented for a beter kick while walking/skating. It puts a spring in your step. Incidentaly, beter camber makes a beter cross country ski. What has been considered proper technique fron the time Howard Head invented the multilaminate ski in 1950 and Bob Lange invented the plastic boot in 1959 until the shaped ski was developed around 1991 was essentialy to make a cross country ski perform on a downhill. The "push the tail/drive the tip" technique was developed in order to 1. Transfer weight from the final contact point at the tail to the initial contact point at the tip in order to not catch an edge and 2. To forceably flex the tip into a turn. On a rockered ski the "hot spots" are moved to the center, thus CLOSER to the foot. A simple roll of the ski from one edge to the other is all it takes to not only initiate, but fully ingage a turn.
So, rockered skis actualy carve MORE like an ice skate. The lack of edge hold that has been a common complaint was not due to a failing of rocker, but the rocker not working in unison with the sidecut radius. If you edge and pressure a shaped ski it bends into an arc. If the rocker exceeds that arc, then you loose edge pressure. Since edge grip wasn't a concern with "powder centeric" skis they were often too straight for the rocker or too rockered for the sidecut, depending on how you look at it.
It has long been known that rocker and zero camber help with quick, precise, catch free turns. Pro only boardercross boards were often built camber free. A local shop had a rockered slalom ski on display from a botique brand back in the days of the volant spatula. If you read up on inventions in ski shape you wil find that rocker pops up often, but untill snowboarding broke the otrhodoxy of the industry it was always a dirty little secret. Finaly ski companies are "comming out of the closet" and they are openly embracing their camber free side, so much so that this year volkl has even fully rockered their all mountain carvers and proper rocker profiles for the frontside are becoming the norm.


Right on.  That was pretty informative.  

 

post #111 of 187

Skimmed a bunch of this.  Not sure if the OP was totally a troll, but some interesting conversation in there.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

There is a misconception that people are saying a race background is not beneficial, or that carving good turns is not a good skill to have, and that is so false.

 


 

That pretty much hits the nail on the head.

 

If you don't want to carve turns -- perhaps because you're lucky enough to ski mostly deep, ungroomed snow -- there's nothing wrong with that.  Those newfangled wide skis will let you get away without doing it (most of the time, at least).  You'll never win in a race course like that, but that's totally irrelevant if you're having fun doing other things.

 

If you can't carve a turn and don't understand why you would want to, to me that's saying "I don't care about getting the most performance out of my skis".  Those same skills work with wide skis and ungroomed snow and will help you in all conditions.  Especially the worst conditions.

post #112 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

Again?

 

I've been having fun skiing for 40+ years, sorry to hear you had stopped.......equipment didn't change anything, we were skiing and smiling then and are still skiing and smiling now  biggrin.gif

 

 



Are you denying there was a long period skiing was in the shithole? Just because YOU have fun doing something does not mean that as a whole it is healthy. You cannot deny that skiing has made a resurgence in the past few years.

post #113 of 187

I can and will. Skiing has always been basically the same, and always will be. the changes are incremental, minor, details, tweaks, evolutionary mutations. the concept of the "progression of the sport" is wildly exaggerated, IMO at least. disagree? good. bring it! or, send it!

 

the basics of skiing that are constant: winter in the mountains; speed, danger, and adrenaline; balance skills; endless challenge and adventure; beautiful women.

 

skiing in doldrum years? don't think so. even if parts of America lagged due to various socio-economic causes, there is still all of Europe, so to say skiing was ever sucking is provincial in the extreme, I mean X-stream.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post

Are you denying there was a long period skiing was in the shithole? Just because YOU have fun doing something does not mean that as a whole it is healthy. You cannot deny that skiing has made a resurgence in the past few years.


 

 

post #114 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

I can and will. Skiing has always been basically the same, and always will be. the changes are incremental, minor, details, tweaks, evolutionary mutations. the concept of the "progression of the sport" is wildly exaggerated, IMO at least. disagree? good. bring it! or, send it!

 

the basics of skiing that are constant: winter in the mountains; speed, danger, and adrenaline; balance skills; endless challenge and adventure; beautiful women.

 

skiing in doldrum years? don't think so. even if parts of America lagged due to various socio-economic causes, there is still all of Europe, so to say skiing was ever sucking is provincial in the extreme, I mean X-stream. 

 

 


It's a statistical fact that the ski industry was FLAT for a long period of time. As the baby boomers started declining skiing was going to as well. Again you cannot deny that snowboarding brought growth the snowsports industry, and that the freeskiing revolution (to include park skiing) has brought a resurgence to the sport. And it wasn't due to economics. Skiing just wasn't cool.

 

post #115 of 187

I don't evaluate skiing by those kinds of numbers, valid though they may be as an indication of popularity.

 

Partly because at one end of the sport, committed, serious skiers don't come and go, they are a constant, they are always out there skiing, every season. They don't have a flat or sucky period about skiing in their life.

 

And like I said, don't think so provincially; did skiing ever go flat in Austria, among teenagers or adults? hardly. So the numbers indicating the health of the sport as you see it, perhaps broad trends, are still only about new young skiers and boarders and the vast numbers of fickle intermediate tourists, people following this and that into and out of the sport.

 

Snowboarding and park have helped many ski areas to survive financially, no doubt, and those businesses are grateful for the shot in the arm.

 

Honestly, I never noticed skiing become unhealthy financially because it didn't concern me or affect me, except perhaps to shorten lines when it has a less popular trend going on.

post #116 of 187

One thing that sucks more than carving obsession is believing that the number of people doing something is what makes it cool.  

post #117 of 187

It's like this:

 

Be an all-roundereek.gif

 

If you can't carve on hardpack..................... Learn!

 

If you can't ski POW............................. ......Learn!

 

If your technique limits the terrian & conditions you can ski well, get your technique together so you can ski it all.

 

Then pick the best tool for the job at hand!

 

On a great Pow day I am out in the steep and deep!

 

On a shitty Pow day I am on race skis carving up the groomed!

 

Any day on skis is better then flying the DESK!ROTF.gif

 

 

post #118 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

It's like this:

 

Be an all-roundereek.gif

 

If you can't carve on hardpack..................... Learn!

 

If you can't ski POW............................. ......Learn!

 

If your technique limits the terrian & conditions you can ski well, get your technique together so you can ski it all.

 

Then pick the best tool for the job at hand!

 

On a great Pow day I am out in the steep and deep!

 

On a shitty Pow day I am on race skis carving up the groomed!

 

Any day on skis is better then flying the DESK!ROTF.gif

 

 

 

Awesome post! icon14.gif
 

 

post #119 of 187


beercheer.gificon14.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

Awesome post! icon14.gif

 



 

post #120 of 187

At least the last few posts make sense! smile.gif  And just as I was about to say, "never have so few cared so much about how so many ski." 

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