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Skidding Sucks. Rant: Physics, Rockers, and Hard Snow (Ice). - Page 7

post #181 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bond View Post

I didn't say or imply that they reward "bad" technique.  They allow and respond more favorably to different skill blends than than cambered skis.  The post to which I was originally responding implied that rockered ski design made it easier to carve.  At least if you are talking about the traditional skiing concept of carving, that is simply not true.

 

I wasn't making any assertions as to whether carving, whatever you want to call what you can do on ice skates and possibly on sufficiently rockered skis, or turns that cause noticable skidding on cambered skis were better than the others or that any of them are bad.  They are all approriate and effective and can be a heck of a lot of fun in certain circustances.  They are different from each other and the mechanics of them are different.

 

What I did say is that you are unlikely to learn effective carving skills and skill blends on wide, rockered skis and you are unlikely to learn how to effectively use the skills and skill blends you can use with wide-rockered skis in 3d snow on a carving ski on 2d snow.  Not that it can't be done, just that it is unlikely.

 

I don't think it makes any more sense to become highly skilled at the edging skills necessary to carve effectively and not care at all about rotary skills any more than vice versa.



icon14.gificon14.gif

 

post #182 of 187
Quote:Originally Posted by David Bond View Post

I don't think it makes any more sense to become highly skilled at the edging skills necessary to carve effectively and not care at all about rotary skills any more than vice versa.

hehe... depends if your religion only accepts the former and denies the usefulness of the later.
 we've had many a flame up on that one.

 

post #183 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Nice post. Sorry you had to explain in your third post as to why ice skates are in fact not skis.

Maybe someone will try playing hockey with rockered skis?


Somebody (maybe you) once posted a video on here of some J4s skating on a hockey rink with their SL skis. I can't find it, but maybe someone else can.

post #184 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post


Somebody (maybe you) once posted a video on here of some J4s skating on a hockey rink with their SL skis. I can't find it, but maybe someone else can.


<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFBE4-a8YfI?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFBE4-a8YfI?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object><object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFBE4-a8YfI?version=3&feature=player_detailpage"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rFBE4-a8YfI?version=3&feature=player_detailpage" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></object>

 

kinda the less-grippy end of the spectrum from race skis here.  Seeing the J4 video if someone can drag it up would be cool.

 

Here's another fun one involving hard and slick surfaces.  It actually does show use of sidecut as well as use of non-carving skills, but fair warning is mainly street rails and all snowboarding.  Gratuitous but fun, for those into these things, linkage:  http://video.mpora.com/watch/0IWhjnbld/
 

 

post #185 of 187

   I think you have brought up some interesting points. If you are a person like me who loves to carve turns and do a lot of them, then it seems to me that understanding at least something about how you really carve turns is important as well as picking the skis which match your skiing preferences. In the old days I had a pair of 210cm. Kastle slalom skis. They pretty much have delaminated now but I measured the radius of them and estimated about 55 meters using my 3D CAD system. If you wanted to make short carved turns with these skis, you had to skid the tails. If you kept the tips tangent to the generated turn, the physics indicate that the skid occurs gradually from the tip to the tail if you are making turns less than 55 meters. In those days, the tips did not skid but the rest of the ski did. This was called a carved turn, and the same is true today. What was not a carved turn was when the tips skidded as well as the rest of the ski. This is the turn of many beginners or poor intermediates.

   A lot of things have changed since those days, all to the good. I now ski on a pair of 165cm. Fischer RX8s and love them. They are 66mm. under foot and have a radius of 13 meters. And of course they have all those wonderful technical improvements we all rely on. I suspect that merely putting the ski on edge will allow me to make a carved turn of 13 meters radius with no skidding of any part of the ski. Hence a better carved turn than with the old Kastles. If you do make turns of less than 13 meters radius, then as in the old days, the rear part of the ski skids though still a carved turn for sure.

  Like most of you, I hate ice and hard pack, where it is difficult to get an edge in, isn't much better. If you are a racer, you handle this well but are doing very different things than I am. Being an old guy, I don't have the strength, skill, or want to put in the effort to do things racers do. I do work on better edging technique and this is important for skiing harder snow and for making better turns. The beauty of the short radius skis is that you can make more carved turns of short radius to hold back your speed on steep slopes. Having a great edge as the RX8s do, makes skiing these more difficult and steeper slopes even easier. My greatest thrills though are skiing in powder and assuming it is not really deep, the RX8s handle this well. I am sure, that the new fatter skis with Rocker handle the powder (and especially the really deep powder) better than my skis. And for that one fact, I would consider different skis for off piste. When I ask other skiers who use these fatter skis, how they do on regular groomed slopes (where I meet them) all say they do just fine. But I bet they are not as fun as the RX8s or turn as fast. Last year I tried a pair of Volkl Kendos (I believe 90mm. under foot) and on regular groomed slopes, they were more difficult to turn, not as stable, and less fun. I'm sure they would be better on 15" of powder, but I don't run into that as much as yesteryear.

  In the old days there was so little ski traffic, that you could go back day after day and catch that 2 feet of powder over and over again. Nowadays every skier in the state decends on the new snow when the lift opens and by noon there is not much left. So you keep going further away to find something untracked or not packed down to the hard stuff. I usually just get used to the skiing on hard pack but at least the kind where you can get an edge in. If you can't get an edge in, then it's off to the bar for me.  

post #186 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy4g63 View Post


 Totally agree with you.......



But I think the point of the thread was:

Good skier is good everywhere and will do  groomed, bumps, pow, crud on any ski, even a tiny wasted race ski...    ski.gif

 

There is no need for rockered/fatter skis, even though they would make things much easier and no one is denying this fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any day on the mountain is a good day..smile.gif

 

I would prefer nice sunny day with hard groomed, or fresh pow ANYTIME , over sipping cocktails on tropical beach...

 

That  just me thoughroflmao.gif ...

 

 

 

 



skiing at its best ^^^^^^^^ i'll bet these are from a racing back ground

 

post #187 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriklessing View Post

   I think you have brought up some interesting points. If you are a person like me who loves to carve turns and do a lot of them, then it seems to me that understanding at least something about how you really carve turns is important as well as picking the skis which match your skiing preferences. In the old days I had a pair of 210cm. Kastle slalom skis. They pretty much have delaminated now but I measured the radius of them and estimated about 55 meters using my 3D CAD system. If you wanted to make short carved turns with these skis, you had to skid the tails. If you kept the tips tangent to the generated turn, the physics indicate that the skid occurs gradually from the tip to the tail if you are making turns less than 55 meters. In those days, the tips did not skid but the rest of the ski did. This was called a carved turn, and the same is true today. What was not a carved turn was when the tips skidded as well as the rest of the ski. This is the turn of many beginners or poor intermediates.

   A lot of things have changed since those days, all to the good. I now ski on a pair of 165cm. Fischer RX8s and love them. They are 66mm. under foot and have a radius of 13 meters. And of course they have all those wonderful technical improvements we all rely on. I suspect that merely putting the ski on edge will allow me to make a carved turn of 13 meters radius with no skidding of any part of the ski. Hence a better carved turn than with the old Kastles. If you do make turns of less than 13 meters radius, then as in the old days, the rear part of the ski skids though still a carved turn for sure.

  Like most of you, I hate ice and hard pack, where it is difficult to get an edge in, isn't much better. If you are a racer, you handle this well but are doing very different things than I am. Being an old guy, I don't have the strength, skill, or want to put in the effort to do things racers do. I do work on better edging technique and this is important for skiing harder snow and for making better turns. The beauty of the short radius skis is that you can make more carved turns of short radius to hold back your speed on steep slopes. Having a great edge as the RX8s do, makes skiing these more difficult and steeper slopes even easier. My greatest thrills though are skiing in powder and assuming it is not really deep, the RX8s handle this well. I am sure, that the new fatter skis with Rocker handle the powder (and especially the really deep powder) better than my skis. And for that one fact, I would consider different skis for off piste. When I ask other skiers who use these fatter skis, how they do on regular groomed slopes (where I meet them) all say they do just fine. But I bet they are not as fun as the RX8s or turn as fast. Last year I tried a pair of Volkl Kendos (I believe 90mm. under foot) and on regular groomed slopes, they were more difficult to turn, not as stable, and less fun. I'm sure they would be better on 15" of powder, but I don't run into that as much as yesteryear.

  In the old days there was so little ski traffic, that you could go back day after day and catch that 2 feet of powder over and over again. Nowadays every skier in the state decends on the new snow when the lift opens and by noon there is not much left. So you keep going further away to find something untracked or not packed down to the hard stuff. I usually just get used to the skiing on hard pack but at least the kind where you can get an edge in. If you can't get an edge in, then it's off to the bar for me.  

As you seem like the person you claim to be (bolded), then you will no doubt be thrilled to learn that if you lay a 13 m ski flat on a hard surface without tipping it, then the radius matching where the edge meets the snow is 13 m, but the ski won't carve because it isn't tipped, but if you tip that ski to 60 degrees, and load it up so the entire edge touches the flat surface the turn radius will be 6.5 m and it will carve that without any skidding of the tails.
 

 

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