A ski in need of some R&D..... - Page 2

truth about invention and skis, Jim.

people involved just in the activity of skiing are way arrogant to suppose they have an important  idea for skis that hasn't been examined by the engineers at major companies.

people involved in the manufacturing of skis, and have started producing skis just in the last 10 years, are way arrogant to think they have an important idea that hasn't been examined by the big companies, or that they can even catch up on the basics of construction in that short a time.

nerve and courage is one thing, but to discount the knowledge of generations of ski makers is just blissful, self centered ignorance.

to look at a manufactured item of any kind and underestimate the importance of the steps it took to arrive at that point in design dooms one to repeat those steps and mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SierraJim 

Ya'll can take heart. The ski designs for 2012-13 are 98% done and wrapped and the 13-14's are close behind. Stuff that ya'll are just now thinking of has been in the design mill for 2 - 2.5 years. The folks that make their living designing skis are waaaaayyyyytheheck ahead of ya'll and some of what has been proposed in this this thread is already in pre-production. The stuff mentioned here that is not in the future pipeline by a solid ski maker is probably not worth it.

 

SJ

As an engineer myself, Davluri, let me tell you a bit about invention.  I rarely come up with something original.  My expertise is in making someone's suggestion a reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

 

What I am speaking of is quality, not speed.  I can ski any number of skis that are front side oriented & built to carve.  Yet, watching Stephan Drake ski the cleat... it has made me realize that perhaps there is more than the pure carve.  I actually don't like the pure carve for all terrain & the reason that going 50 mph on boilerplate is kinda a death rattle.  If you watch Drake & Ligety, the both have a speed control slarve move (stivot) going on to check speed & cut off the radius to control the turn.  Is this applicable to the larger audience that for the most port skis groomers.

 

Funny how everyone skis a big mtn ski these days at tiny hills.  I also am coming to realize that there is more than picking up perpetual speed in a run.  Wouldn't it be nice if a ski made the packed feel like the pow?

 

Making groomers ski like pow -- that would be too easy. Its not hard to exploit this renewable resource. Powder is not hard to find, the mountains are literally covered in it. Just invest in a nice touring setup, train up on the BC protocol and safety and go climb some mountains prospecting for pow. Then enjoy the goods on the way down.

If you want to take the slarve to the groomers, I don't see how current gear is limiting that. People skid all the time, I do so myself. It is alot easier to skid on a soft flexing straight sidecut ski like the one I linked above... Just get on a pair of rental skis with round edges. I will say that it is an over rated experience.

Iriponsnow...

It seems as though you are looking for ideas here for a real product.

My two cents is that perhaps some people do indeed have some ideas that might work, but might not want their idea exploited for no recognition or monetary gain, even if-in reality-their idea wouldn't otherwise surface in the form of a product... It's kinda like the squirrel that doesn't want the acorns, but doesn't want any other squirrels to take those acorns.

That may be why this thread is lacking in ingenuity.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" -RFK

If McConkey sat down on his computer in 1998 do you think the internet  could have told him that heliskiing on a pair of off the shelf water skis would be the first step in a revolutionary new ski design that would be as universally successful as shaped skis and  revolutionize ski technique, tactics and change the way that skiers around the world look at the mountains?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

I am finding it rather interesting that for a group so bent on gear, the notion of an innovative methodology to a what the bread & butter population consumes is beyond grasp.

 

I am not talking about a new volkl or nordica here...........

 

The fringes tug on the masses...........and have a responsibility to do such.

Asking questions like: in what respect do you think that groomer oriented skis could be improved? That is a question that is looking for an evolutionary next step. It probably has an answer that a focus group could come up with if we tried really hard.

That's not revolutionary. Maybe you should be asking yourself, what is the next big thing for groomer skiing? How can you change how skiers look at the mountain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

truth about invention and skis, Jim.

people involved just in the activity of skiing are way arrogant to suppose they have an important  idea for skis that hasn't been examined by the engineers at major companies.

 

people involved in the manufacturing of skis, and have started producing skis just in the last 10 years, are way arrogant to think they have an important idea that hasn't been examined by the big companies, or that they can even catch up on the basics of construction in that short a time.

 

nerve and courage is one thing, but to discount the knowledge of generations of ski makers is just blissful, self centered ignorance.

 

to look at a manufactured item of any kind and underestimate the importance of the steps it took to arrive at that point in design dooms one to repeat those steps and mistakes.

 

Are you back to this again? The funny thing is that even you know you are wrong in what you are saying. I am continually dissapointed in the quality of manufacture that most of the ski's at the local shops show.

I'm just waiting for you to stop waffling.

No, I think a pure powder ski is the easiest ski to make. A ski that has to handle mixed conditions on variable terrain is more difficult. thus, appreciation of a simple powder ski, not so much for a complex daily driver. sort of waffling do to what different companies do well or poorly.

Has anybody tried the new Elans? Those at least seem to be a move in this direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom 

^^^ I agree that the 'modern carving ski' has probably been perfected... but I'm not at all sure that that is the be-all-end-all of firm snow FUN. I think that there is some room for a new school of ski design to bring the surfy feel of modern powder skis to firm snow.

 

I'm throwing this together really quick with a stream of thought while I type, but here's what I could envision:

 

low twintip design, about 80-ish mm underfoot, low, rockered tip and tail with taper (similar to a Blizzard Bonafide) blending into a short flat cambered zone with moderate sidecut (say 18-21metr tr)  blending into a short underfoot zone with a lot of sidecut (13-15m tr) say 135cm or so (similar to a rossi S7) with very stiff camber (I'm thinking the ski has a double camber like an XC ski) the stiff camber keeps the deep side cut from engaging unless the ski is driven hard and weighted while on edge, otherwise the longer side cut zone and rockered ends provide a loose playful feel that isn't hooky. The ski can be carved aggressively when desired, can be skied switch, can butter and pivot... the trick would be to get a ski that can absolutely rail turns in a modern two-footed high edge angle turn, but can also provide a loose feel and the ability to feel like you can slash/ power slide a turn like a modern powder ski

^^^ This. I'm thinking we have to start thinking about groomer skis as having zones, each one could be different design. Logical extension of dual radius, variable tuning, etc. But as W says, unclear it would run faster. Might just be a hoot, though. Maybe it's time to direct RD at intermediates, rather than assume they just will have to learn to wait patiently until they get good. Thus rockered carvers.

Now we need to get to work on Snow Blades...

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

No, I think a pure powder ski is the easiest ski to make. A ski that has to handle mixed conditions on variable terrain is more difficult. thus, appreciation of a simple powder ski, not so much for a complex daily driver. sort of waffling do to what different companies do well or poorly.

I think you really need to learn more about people out there making ski's that aren't Dynastar even your appreciation of Praxis doesn't seem to be up to snuff. Just look at Drew Tabke and Kevin O. Pretty sure not every freeride they kick ass in isn't purely pow. In fact some of those conditions are down right horrible.

Actually I had the pleasure of dropping into Main once with Drew, back when he had Spats and was here for a comp, free skiing before the event. And I have the privilege of skiing kinda' with (more when and where) Kevin a lot. Really cool guys. Thing is, those guys could do exactly what they do on Praxis or DPS or Dynastars or just about any ski they want to or are  paid to ski, and in any conditions. In fact, one year I counted skis at a comp and the Legend Pro and XXL was among about the top 1 or 2 choices for competitors. I keep trying not to single out boutique skis I have ridden and not liked for what specific reasons, and I will continue to not do that, but trust me that I have skied some truly crappy skis made by people "out there making skis", so I have to say they exist, and they must be part of some painful learning curve.

given that my main interest in gear is just using it, what do you suggest I'd accomplish by learning about the  people who make it, aside from enjoying hanging with them?

My appreciation of Praxis is fundamental. They take care of my son. Important stuff.

I ride Stockli also, almost a boutique ski....
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecimmortal 

I think you really need to learn more about people out there making ski's that aren't Dynastar even your appreciation of Praxis doesn't seem to be up to snuff. Just look at Drew Tabke and Kevin O. Pretty sure not every freeride they kick ass in isn't purely pow. In fact some of those conditions are down right horrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

Actually I had the pleasure of dropping into Main once with Drew, back when he had Spats and was here for a comp, free skiing before the event. And I have the privilege of skiing kinda' with (more when and where) Kevin a lot. Really cool guys. Thing is, those guys could do exactly what they do on Praxis or DPS or Dynastars or just about any ski they want to or are  paid to ski, and in any conditions. In fact, one year I counted skis at a comp and the Legend Pro and XXL was among about the top 1 or 2 choices for competitors. I keep trying not to single out boutique skis I have ridden and not liked for what specific reasons, and I will continue to not do that, but trust me that I have skied some truly crappy skis made by people "out there making skis", so I have to say they exist, and they must be part of some painful learning curve.

 

given that my main interest in gear is just using it, what do you suggest I'd accomplish by learning about the  people who make it, aside from enjoying hanging with them?

 

My appreciation of Praxis is fundamental. They take care of my son. Important stuff.

 

I ride Stockli also, almost a boutique ski....

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there are some bad ski's out there. I would attribute most of those to being "boutique" or "core" but in reality they aren't really building their own skis, and some that are just cheap.  At the same time I think you shouldn't deny that there are people out there producing high quality product, and not just pow skis.

I have my own indie appreciation, and it's from being treated well, and handed a good product.

I did veer off my main point a little in that if Praxis just built pow ski's, and not hard charging ski's , then I'm not sure they would be able to go as hard as they do. Them being Kevin and Drew.

Making a good crud basher daily driver type ski in a small shop. hats off, that's for sure, because that's a tough ski to make.

since the topic of this thread in general is innovation, what is the gain in performance derived from the squared-off tip design.  most I see, the corners of the squared tip are all chewed up; not a good sign. is it possibly a fashion statement? saying: youthful and in. see, this is the kind of thing that seriously causes me to be skeptical. a counter-productive design (my opinion) that makes a ski more popular because it is a fashion statement. ouch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

Making a good crud basher daily driver type ski in a small shop. hats off, that's for sure, because that's a tough ski to make.

 

since the topic of this thread in general is innovation, what is the gain in performance derived from the squared-off tip design.  most I see, the corners of the squared tip are all chewed up; not a good sign. is it possibly a fashion statement? saying: youthful and in. see, this is the kind of thing that seriously causes me to be skeptical. a counter-productive design (my opinion) that makes a ski more popular because it is a fashion statement. ouch.

How is this happening, in your opinion?  Other than banging them into gates, the tips of your average ski don't hit much.  Even tree skiing would involve much contact, I would think.

It's anyone who locks their lower knee behind the upper knee when skiing across the fall line (lots of people) is going to ride the upper ski on the lower tip. usually it would slide and shift smoothly (still grinds the tip)  but with a big angular corner sticking out, they rub pretty hard, IMO. some skiers don't do this and their tips are not chewed up, for example if you ski with your skis hip width apart. then again, in choppy crud, skis probably bang off each other somewhat.

sure hope those corners are not getting worn off on the trunks of trees. like a football helmet covered with opponents paint scuffs. yeah, we bad.

OP:  Maybe what you are really asking is how to make groomers cool again?

I think the "race culture" needs a serious overhaul... A bunch of people wearing skin-tight suits, ugly goggles that make them look like martians, all with a heavy European undertone.

I think just like there are public terrain parks at hills, there need to be gates and race courses that the public can enjoy.  They can be called "race parks."  Can I patent this?  When they feel the thrill of ripping angulated carves around the gates, maybe something would catch on.

And the skis?  Well, instead of French and German names and words on brightly-colored race skis, lets get some clowns, aliens, bulls, dragsters, missiles, bikini models, and monsters on the topsheets of race skis to make sure the pubescent population is turned on by it all.

Lastly, it should be socially appropriate to go freeskiing in race suits.  I do this after my races, but I'm yet to just show up at the hill like this.

you are such a loose cannon. can this man's mind ever be contained by the weak bounds of skiing traditions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW 

Ehhh, those were tried at Snowy Peaks in 1990... and all they did was cause a runaway hotdog to go down the "Express Route"

 

 

 

(screenshots from 1990 movie "Ski Patrol")

 

That's awesome!  Thanks!  Actually is frickin' snawsome!  That's a step above awesome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW 

OP:  Maybe what you are really asking is how to make groomers cool again?

 

I think the "race culture" needs a serious overhaul... A bunch of people wearing skin-tight suits, ugly goggles that make them look like martians, all with a heavy European undertone.

 

I think just like there are public terrain parks at hills, there need to be gates and race courses that the public can enjoy.  They can be called "race parks."  Can I patent this?  When they feel the thrill of ripping angulated carves around the gates, maybe something would catch on.

 

 

And the skis?  Well, instead of French and German names and words on brightly-colored race skis, lets get some clowns, aliens, bulls, dragsters, missiles, bikini models, and monsters on the topsheets of race skis to make sure the pubescent population is turned on by it all.

 

Lastly, it should be socially appropriate to go freeskiing in race suits.  I do this after my races, but I'm yet to just show up at the hill like this.

I'm down!  I ski at least as many days as I can, (warm days!) in a race suit.  I'm I racing...no, but it's way faster!

sounds like a rossy experience 88

Volkl Racetiger RCs. I bought a used second pair in like new condition as backup. 

We need a nice soft flexing recreational SL side cut ski that turns into a stiff SL race ski that turns into a stiffer GS race ski that Turns into a very stiff-tailed SG race ski with somewhat softer tips, that turns into a DH ski.  68 mm is wide enough at the waist.  Oh, and it has to do this all automatically based on speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost 

.  68 mm is wide enough at the waist. 

Nonsense.   Automatic waist adjustments.

^^  All they really need to do is stick a few brushies down here and there.

As to the adjustable waist width, good idea....for an all mountain ski.

Rather than a specific ski improvement isn't this more around defining what a groomer only ski is? Sounds like some people want a no compromise connected Porsche 911 feeling and others want a lazy Cadillac feel. Personally I'd definately want the feeling of high G's, quick strong edges and feedback on piste which granted takes work, not the softer less dramatic weightlessness and floatingness of powder. 

Depends what you want and how you ski when you can feel the ground. Rocker on groomer skis is a good argument here straight away.

One groomer ski fits all is never going to work on that basis, just like a 1 ski quivers compromises. Skiing is too individualized isn't it?