A ski in need of some R&D.....

My $0.02:  they've already perfected this ski.  You say "not talking arcing 70 degree edge angles...." but that's what makes groomers fun for me at least.  Hard-snow, shorter-radius, stiffer skis (read Dynastar Speed Course Ti, for instance) are optimized for these kind of conditions.  They allow high speeds with high g-force carves, and demand a strong measure of skier skill and attention.  I can't think of what else could make groomers or packed powder more fun....unless you want to think that skidding around wildly on heavily-rockered wide skis might provide more excitement --  kinda like slipping downhill on banana peels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

I've had this idea kicking around for a while:  many of us ski groomers or groomers are what we have to ski.  There are plenty of big mtn, powder skis w/ reverse camber that are game changers in pow.  What would a ski look like if it was optimized to ski groomers?  I'm not talking arching on 70 degree edge angles like Bode, I'm thinking a ski that makes groomers fun.....something that makes packed powder more tolerable.

 

Just like watching DPS redefine powder, is it time to redefine the groomer ski?

 

Thoughts? 

my rossi phantoms are incredibly fun on groomed
 

^^^ I agree that the 'modern carving ski' has probably been perfected... but I'm not at all sure that that is the be-all-end-all of firm snow FUN. I think that there is some room for a new school of ski design to bring the surfy feel of modern powder skis to firm snow.

I'm throwing this together really quick with a stream of thought while I type, but here's what I could envision:

low twintip design, about 80-ish mm underfoot, low, rockered tip and tail with taper (similar to a Blizzard Bonafide) blending into a short flat cambered zone with moderate sidecut (say 18-21metr tr)  blending into a short underfoot zone with a lot of sidecut (13-15m tr) say 135cm or so (similar to a rossi S7) with very stiff camber (I'm thinking the ski has a double camber like an XC ski) the stiff camber keeps the deep side cut from engaging unless the ski is driven hard and weighted while on edge, otherwise the longer side cut zone and rockered ends provide a loose playful feel that isn't hooky. The ski can be carved aggressively when desired, can be skied switch, can butter and pivot... the trick would be to get a ski that can absolutely rail turns in a modern two-footed high edge angle turn, but can also provide a loose feel and the ability to feel like you can slash/ power slide a turn like a modern powder ski

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteroom 

............... The ski can be carved aggressively when desired, can be skied switch, can butter and pivot... the trick would be to get a ski that can absolutely rail turns in a modern two-footed high edge angle turn, but can also provide a loose feel and the ability to feel like you can slash/ power slide a turn like a modern powder ski

My Stockli Stormrider XL (previously owned) and XXL (still have after 4 seasons) both do this very well and my Stockli Laser SX (now in its second season) is the best frontside carving ski I've ever been on.  Just a forgotten category, not R & D needed as there are good skis out there.

irip,

Is this just an idle speculation, or do you have an input to any ski company?

I think it's a very interesting idea.  Where I live (SoCal), most of the skiing is on refozen corduroy, which melts to slush in the afternoon.  My daily driver is Volkl Racetiger SL, which is great for the AM freeze, and pretty good for the PM slush.  Where it's not so great is bumps, it's too precise, and too demanding.  I ski it there anyway, because it's too much hassle to switch, but a little bit less of tail rebound could make it a lot more forgiving.  On the other hand, dedicated bumps skis are just that, no fun anywhere else.

So, my idea would be a somewhat detuned SL ski.  The trick would be a perfect balance between being able to lay nice railroad tracks on ice, and gently release the edges in bumps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxman 

My Stockli Stormrider XL (previously owned) and XXL (still have after 4 seasons) both do this very well and my Stockli Laser SX (now in its second season) is the best frontside carving ski I've ever been on.  Just a forgotten category, not R & D needed as there are good skis out there.

 

 

Stockli makes some of the very best traditional skis made, if not hands down THE best... but that isn't what I'm talking about at all. The Kastle MX line is also about as good as things are going to get with traditional designs, but...

maybe I misread the OP, but I thought the question was "is there a way to re-approach the frontside ski, are there design ideas that haven't been thought of yet?" The new DPS ski design was referenced, so I'm thinking about, well, what could be totally new?

what's new is old. when I started skiing there was a strong emphasis on edge control, including numerous methods of sideslipping.  Learning skiing used to involve many, many lessons focused on sideslipping.  And now, after a period of technical focus on carving, sideslipping is back. and that's awesome for skiing packed snow (groomers for the sake of the OP's proposal).  there are skis with less sidecut in the rear section of the ski, making releasing the edge much more even along the ski. my Stockli XL's, with 43 and 33mm +- sidecut have greater tip and tail pressure than edge hold in the waist of the ski while releasing the skis across the fall line. The Legend Pro, on the other hand, with 30 and 20mm +- sidecut, releases very smoothly and predictably.  If you want to smear the groomers, let your interest in skis with less extreme sidecut be heard. I see the French doing quite a bit in this area already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

Well I may have some leverage in 1 or 2 design shops.... But I have been thinking for so time now that a ski to handle groomers could be possible in a whole new reference. Take carving & toss it. I have fis skis, race carvers & the like, there comes a point where perpetual acceration down the fall line is not what I'm after on the death ice. Plus those skis exist & most skiers really can't handle them.
I want a ski that is fun on crap & puts a smile on my face. My initial thoughts go like this:
Tip/shovel: rocker or uber soft flex to absorb vibration, yet wide to initiate well, fast base material.
Mid to underfoot: smooth, yet progressively stiffer torsially for modern lateral skiing. Right under the boot area- a dimpled base construction. Fast when railing, slower on the bases. Something that promotes re centering between turns.
Tail: cambered, wider- widest part of the ski? Maybe & convex to the snow in a split tail x 5 or 8. Kinda a brushing effect to the end of the turn.
I am thinking ~ 85 underfoot & a low (recessed?) stack ht binding
A ski to turn boilerplate into a surfy experience & easy on the joints.
I am thinking of calling this the octopus design

You may want to start here... It sounds somewhat similar to what you are describing.

http://www.rei.com/product/805042/madshus-annum-mgv-omni-cross-country-skis

I think a ski that smears would be nice for lazy afternoons on steeper terrain for people who are too drained to keep the accelerator pressed... I don't like the feeling on my 15 M cheater skis of not being able to smear very well (or at least how I'd like) on certain hard snow.

But I'm not sure that is very central to making groomers more fun, or at least not all of them.

As has been said here, I think the groomer ski has already been revolutionized.

You know what would be sick?  Mad scientists creating a ski with up-stop technology (like a roller coaster) or just sooooo heavy that you can go over massive humps without catching any air (and thus feel the negative g-forces of a roller coaster).  I'm afraid roller coasters still beat groomers, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Seems like a lot of work to do what you could just do with a file. Why wouldn't 2 or more degree base do what you guys are talking about?

Honestly, I don't see why you'd want to fix what isn't broke, but if everyone thought that way, I'd still be skiing powder on 200cm Snowrangers.

modern firm snow skis, evolved 1960 to 1995 roughly (and exist at a pretty highly developed state for carving or smearing). modern powder skis, evolving 2000 through the present. gross changes in shape have occurred, and more subtle changes in construction are still being tested, and are needed to produce the highest development of the class. development is gradual and incremental, IMO. "if it's not broken" is not part of the driving force for or against change, rather there is a constant refinement and tweaking process going on because, although not broken, it can always be just a little bit better, to a point. so your snow rangers moved things forward one step and were then naturally swept aside when an engineer and pro skier put their heads together on what's next.  

+1 ^^^ a file would change the character of a hard snow ski quite a bit, especially a model with less sidecut.

Whiteroom mentioned the concept of 'double camber' that has been used in the design of diagonal stride cross country skis. Double camber means that when the skiers' weigh is evenly distributed between both skis, an area (pocket)under the feet is left riding above the snow. Only when more than half body weight is applied to a ski does this pocket touch the snow. This is done so that the kick wax does not drag in the snow. Has this concept ever been used in alpine ski design?

because exaggerated edge grip at the tips and tails, called negatively hooking up in some cases, is considered an undesirable condition for a smooth carved or slid turn (except some slalom turns) , I can't see where reducing the drag or contact of the waist of a downhill ski is going to create a fun camber design. clearly I'm classic design oriented, however, so FWIW, my analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

I've had this idea kicking around for a while:  many of us ski groomers or groomers are what we have to ski.  There are plenty of big mtn, powder skis w/ reverse camber that are game changers in pow.  What would a ski look like if it was optimized to ski groomers?  I'm not talking arching on 70 degree edge angles like Bode, I'm thinking a ski that makes groomers fun.....something that makes packed powder more tolerable.

 

Just like watching DPS redefine powder, is it time to redefine the groomer ski?

 

Thoughts? 

I think that's a funny thing to ask.  How about adding rocket propulsion to a pair.  Or cat tracks, with a small engine so you don't need a chair lift.  Hey they could be electric, and recharge as you go downhill!   There are so many killer skis for groomed snow.  Hey let's just re-invent a wheel!

Quote:

Originally Posted by davluri 

what's new is old. when I started skiing there was a strong emphasis on edge control, including numerous methods of sideslipping.  ...........................

 

there are skis with less sidecut in the rear section of the ski, making releasing the edge much more even along the ski..............  If you want to smear the groomers, let your interest in skis with less extreme sidecut be heard. I see the French doing quite a bit in this area already.

This.  And I think this is where Volkl's AC series and Atomic in particular fell down with their front side skis over the past few years; bit sidecut skis, arc and park, but hard to release and slide.

I think where the hard-pack skis need to go is in making better improvements with advances in materials science.  Watch any ski in slow motion, even the race stock models, that's moving fast through rough snow; you'll see the ski constantly losing contact with the snow due to vibration as the ski attempts to "calm down" and maintain edge contact.  I think they have a long way to go in finding a construction that makes even the crappiest snow feel like a walk in the park.

That's at least what I'd like to see.  That's why I gravitate to skis like Stockli, but even those can be rendered useless on some of the nasty stuff.

You said you want the ski to be more fun. Are you talking about improving  the fact that race / hardsnow oriented carving skis skis don't ski nicely and are not fun on real packed powder? Or are you talking about something else?

I think Magne Rocker would be pretty cool.

Have the DPS style cleats but have more of them on a tradional sidecut and with out the convex base. Have the biggest cleats underfoot and have them get small towards the tip and tail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW 

You know what would be sick?  Mad scientists creating a ski with up-stop technology (like a roller coaster) or just sooooo heavy that you can go over massive humps without catching any air (and thus feel the negative g-forces of a roller coaster).  I'm afraid roller coasters still beat groomers, but it doesn't have to be that way.

I don't want to be wearing these when I ride the chairlift.  My knees already hurt at the end of a ski day.

stop by the DPS booth at the 2013 SIA :D

Folks may want to take a close look at the Praxis Concept (and now also BPS) design. Not exactly an ice ski - but it offers some pretty cool turn options, even on groomers... I personally like how yo can let it go "weightless" on groomer turns.

Another interesting ski for groomed firm snow is the Anton Glider (or whatever they are calling it these days). I've read good comments from folks who like that kind of stuff (not a space I am personally chasing after...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriponsnow 

 

What I am speaking of is quality, not speed.  I can ski any number of skis that are front side oriented & built to carve.  Yet, watching Stephan Drake ski the cleat... it has made me realize that perhaps there is more than the pure carve.  I actually don't like the pure carve for all terrain & the reason that going 50 mph on boilerplate is kinda a death rattle.  If you watch Drake & Ligety, the both have a speed control slarve move (stivot) going on to check speed & cut off the radius to control the turn.  Is this applicable to the larger audience that for the most port skis groomers.

 

Funny how everyone skis a big mtn ski these days at tiny hills.  I also am coming to realize that there is more than picking up perpetual speed in a run.  Wouldn't it be nice if a ski made the packed feel like the pow?

 

I hate to be like this.......but maybe it's you.  Many can take a killer ski tuned for carve, and skid it all they want.  No offence, but maybe you should watch Drake, and Ligety some more? 

OK.......pack feel like pow?  Now you are just stiring up a mess.  That's just insane!   Be good now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SierraJim 

Ya'll can take heart. The ski designs for 2012-13 are 98% done and wrapped and the 13-14's are close behind. Stuff that ya'll are just now thinking of has been in the design mill for 2 - 2.5 years. The folks that make their living designing skis are waaaaayyyyytheheck ahead of ya'll and some of what has been proposed in this this thread is already in pre-production. The stuff mentioned here that is not in the future pipeline by a solid ski maker is probably not worth it.

 

SJ

So does this mean I'll have some rockets on some new skis soon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques 

So does this mean I'll have some rockets on some new skis soon?

 

Ehhh, those were tried at Snowy Peaks in 1990... and all they did was cause a runaway hotdog to go down the "Express Route"

(screenshots from 1990 movie "Ski Patrol")