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Ski manufactuers production "tune"

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

I have purchased a fair number of new skis in the past few years and I am constantly amazed at the base/edge prep that they are sold with. Now these are high end skis from a number of different manufacturers. They range from fair to truly awful. Not even a pair that was good, not one.

 

Now if I was looking to sell high end skis, I would want to make a great first impression on the snow. If you leave the shop where you bought the skis and they didn't tune them, you will be disappointed with their performance. Ad depending on where you buy, they might not even be able to tune them properly. Same holds true when you demo. You are at the mercy of the rep and how he treats the skis. It can be the difference between "I love them" and "I just ain't feeling it"

 

If a ski retails for say over $700, why can't it come ready to ski? It's not that I mind doing the tunes, I don't. And you would have to do it down the road anyway to maintain the skis performance. How is it that the skis makers ignore this very important detail???  nonono2.gif  th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

Thoughts?

post #2 of 26

Abolutely IMHO unacceptable. The ski should ski great right out of the wrapper. You shouldn't be expected to pay another $50 or more at a shop for the ski to ski well.

post #3 of 26

I have skied about 5 or 6 pairs of skis in the last 5 seasons or so and they have all been perfect. Noteworthy were the Rossignol B-Squad's in a 166 and 176 (mine and my son's). 

 

The Stockli Stormrder XL, The Legend Pro Rider, the Volkl Explosiv, exemplary, at least for the conditions I ski.

 

You know what I think about outsourcing; how about a clue as to who specifically doesn't prep their bases and edges very well? It would help a buyer who could pull out his truing bar and say: yeah, I want them, after you correct the tune and base grind (if that is what's bad and they are un-acceptable.) The problem with this however is obvious: 1) they have to true them before I'd give them any money 2) only a small percentage of shops can do a decent base grind and edge tune. Up here there were shops with lousy equipment that could only ruin your skis, on your dollar.

post #4 of 26

It is a very rare ski that is perfect out of the wrapper.  In general, some companies are better than others, but overall any new ski should be tuned before skiing it. 

 

I think that most skis are probably tuned/finished at the factory while they are "green".  These skis change as they cure - on the way across the pond in the container. 

 

Personally, I don't believe that a purely machined tuned ski is "finished" and ready to ski.  The machine is a tool that saves time, and roughs things out, but a good hand tune is neccesary for a truly finished product. 

 

This is why world cupper's have personal tuners to prepare their skis.

post #5 of 26

not that many world cup racers out skiing variable coverage on perfect skis in the West and Rockies though. do their needs on course really have anything to do with normal off piste skiing? I'm not being sarcastic, it's a real question, given the cost of about 180 per pair of skis per season for two grind and tune jobs. Compared to how skis get in a big hurry out here, the brand new ski with a decent machine tune is more than adequate. If it doesn't have a flat base and flush edges, that's a different matter. If you don't beat up your skis, that's also a different situation.

post #6 of 26

did you ever think to ski them before checking the base/side edge angles?

 

sometime absurd angles work better than you think

post #7 of 26

that's a bit of a miss kind of observation. I don't follow what you're saying. and I'm interested in the subject.

 

One thing likely, in 56 years of skiing, most after the experience of junior racing for 6 years, I have thought of most things at some point.

Immediately eliminated was a preoccupation with the fine points of tuning on off piste skis that rattle off rocks almost every day. Just a practical thing. Love the new ski, the buzz sound of a new edge, but it's short lived.

 

Do any all mountain, wide skis, come with an exotic tune, as in acute edge angles, extreme bevel on the base edge?

post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 

Disclaimer.....

 

I am in New England, so think firm snow as often as not (last year was a great exception). I also like to ski on snow, not rocks (so no Magic).

 

I'm simply saying that at best the factory "prep" is nothing but a rough ground shaping, not even consistant angles for the most part. Crude is the word that comes to mind.

You could certainly slide them down the mountain and maybe off-piste you wouldn't even care. But if you're new 40k car wouldn't track down the road off the dealer's floor I'll bet you'd want to know why......


Edited by Rossi Smash - 9/21/11 at 4:55am
post #9 of 26

I always make sure any new car we get has flat tires and just for fun.... maybe a loose stabilizer.

post #10 of 26

I wonder if new skis will always hold their tune? As they continue to cure before you buy them does the shape of the ski change? If so, is it worth putting a "perfect" tune on them when it will no longer be true by the time you buy it? I can't say I have bought any new skis that had a truly bad tune out of the box. Skis I have bought that had notably good tunes though were Kastle and VIST.

post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

I wonder if new skis will always hold their tune? As they continue to cure before you buy them does the shape of the ski change? If so, is it worth putting a "perfect" tune on them when it will no longer be true by the time you buy it? I can't say I have bought any new skis that had a truly bad tune out of the box. Skis I have bought that had notably good tunes though were Kastle and VIST.



My RX's did not have anything close to a good tune when purchased. Were yours "untouched" at the shop when you got them?

 

 

post #12 of 26

My RXs were demos, but my MX 78s and my wife's MX70s both came out of the plastic with good tunes.

post #13 of 26

I easily agree with Rossi and coolhand that it is rare for a new pair of skis to arrive with a great tune. I change my ski quiver too often and find most new skis to have concave or convex bases with edges (base and side) over/under beveled and not consistent tip to tail. I automatically check the bases with a true bar and check the edge angles. I have found most new skis can really benefit from a light full tune. I really feel the improvement with Mixed Snow/Hard Snow Groomer Skis. 'Powder Only' Skis may differ. JMD

post #14 of 26

I have never seen or skied on a pair of out of the wrapper skis that were perfectly tuned.  I've skied on some that ski just fine, but they are certainly not skiing at maximum performance.  I also find that brand new skis have to be skied in for a few days until all of the parts start to get along with each other.  Nothing can replace hand tuning to get the most out of a pair of skis, new or old.

post #15 of 26

Every new ski I have had required work before they were flat and beveled correctly. No big deal. I believe it is partially due to curing and also a lack of effort/interest by the manufacturers. Seems like those who send them out OK for the masses to save a few bucks do not have the reputation of Stockli and Kastle who ship well tuned. 

post #16 of 26

a factory could look at it like this:

 

masses of intermediate/advanced skiers = don't notice, don't care, put on a 1degree/2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

racers = are going to tune the brand new ski anyway to get specs and close tolerances, put on a 1degree/2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

avid skiers = skiing off piste daily in variable coverage, don't obsess over tune and want to preserve base and edge for future damage repair, put on a 1 degree 2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

maybe there is no reason to put a race tune on a ski at the factory.

 

a flat base may be more of a problem now than it was 10 years ago, because....

 

posting above, it was inaccurate to say the skis I bought were perfect. they were fine for my purposes, incredible compared to a ski that has been out all season, and our rocky conditions are part of that.

post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

a factory could look at it like this:

 

masses of intermediate/advanced skiers = don't notice, don't care, put on a 1degree/2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

racers = are going to tune the brand new ski anyway to get specs and close tolerances, put on a 1degree/2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

avid skiers = skiing off piste daily in variable coverage, don't obsess over tune and want to preserve base and edge for future damage repair, put on a 1 degree 2 degree coarse machine tune and ship it.

 

maybe there is no reason to put a race tune on a ski at the factory.

 

a flat base may be more of a problem now than it was 10 years ago, because....



but that's just it....they are not even close to being that good. Just LOOK at the coarse ground edges (bases are another problem all together) they are not even consistant from tip to tail. If they were simply not "finished to a fine grit" it wouldn't be an issue. But they are so crudely machined it prevents the ski from doing what it should.

 

Why don't they want the ski to work well? Is it a  "take the money and run" philosophy?

 

 

post #18 of 26

I did notice a coarseness. when I skied the Legend Pro's on certain snow, they buzzed or hummed. could have been the serrated effect. love new skis, and then it's over....

 

But what brands are you referring to? can't just paint them all with the same stroke. I know the Stormriders were pretty good, and I think the Legend Pro's (08) also.Didn't notice or care on the Huge.

post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post





My RX's did not have anything close to a good tune when purchased. Were yours "untouched" at the shop when you got them?

 

 

My RXs (RX National Team SGs that is; I'm sure Rossi knows what they are) were just about as perfect as anybody could get them when I peeled the sticky off the bases. They were at 0.5-2 tip to tail and sharp enough to shave with.
 

My Fischer WC SCs had a good true to spec tune (a more forgiving, but still adequate 1-3 that required a little getting used to), but that may have been put on by the shop.

 

My new-old P50F1s were tuned true to their 1-2 specs, perhaps not the easiest tune for carving pure turns on ice (they require a little more firmness and direct application of pressure at initiation than the SC), but more in keeping with their general public appeal and much easier to "scarve" on.

 

However, I do recall skiing a demonstrator pair or two of supposedly high end skis, that were so badly detuned they could have been replaced with cafeteria trays.  I think some demonstrator skis are deliberately detuned so that rich folk who want to buy the very best but can't ski worth a damn will find them to their liking.  It's just a theory.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

My RXs were demos, but my MX 78s and my wife's MX70s both came out of the plastic with good tunes.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by choucas View Post

I have never seen or skied on a pair of out of the wrapper skis that were perfectly tuned.  I've skied on some that ski just fine, but they are certainly not skiing at maximum performance.  I also find that brand new skis have to be skied in for a few days until all of the parts start to get along with each other.  Nothing can replace hand tuning to get the most out of a pair of skis, new or old.



 

post #20 of 26

Sorry to highjack thread, but My Prophets Came with a 1 Degree Base 1.5 Side bevel. Will it be easy for a shop to change the side to a 2 Degree Side Bevel?

post #21 of 26

very easy. you lose a little more steel going the other direction.

post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

I wonder if new skis will always hold their tune? As they continue to cure before you buy them does the shape of the ski change? If so, is it worth putting a "perfect" tune on them when it will no longer be true by the time you buy it? I can't say I have bought any new skis that had a truly bad tune out of the box. Skis I have bought that had notably good tunes though were Kastle and VIST.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMD View Post

I easily agree with Rossi and coolhand that it is rare for a new pair of skis to arrive with a great tune. I change my ski quiver too often and find most new skis to have concave or convex bases with edges (base and side) over/under beveled and not consistent tip to tail. I automatically check the bases with a true bar and check the edge angles. I have found most new skis can really benefit from a light full tune. I really feel the improvement with Mixed Snow/Hard Snow Groomer Skis. 'Powder Only' Skis may differ. JMD


The fact is many fatter skis do not come off the rack with perfectly flat bases so the tunes can't be perfect by definition.  I guess not every manufacturer keeps the skis in the molds long enough for the resin to fully cure. Does this matter when skiing in powder?  No. Will the average skier who slides their turns notice this?  Probably not.   A bad tune will be noticed by a skier who can carve turns on hard pack. 

 

post #23 of 26

I think the companies should be shipping skis prepared to ski as they intended.  However the reality is if you ski five pairs of identical skis from any manufacturer its very likely that they all would ski differently.  Atomic is by far the worst I have seen but its been years since I have been on a pair.  I actually had to send a pair back to them because they were so awful.  I would have destroyed them trying to grind them flat. I was told that its was do to cap construction being faster than traditional laminate construction which led to skis being tuned for all the materials cured.  However the two pairs of Icelantics I bought last season were both concave and needed a fair amount of work despite being of traditional construction.

post #24 of 26

I believe the Atomic Beta series was made concave intentionally. anyone? this I have been told. it would be funny if it isn't true. I asked because I was still used to flat filing bases and it wasn't working on those.

post #25 of 26

I sold and worked on a lot of Beta series skis over the years and the signature problem was always concave spots at the tip and tail.  It was never a matter of if the skis had them but how bad they were.

post #26 of 26

Interesting comments in this thread.  I always look at a new pair of skis bases with a true pair and am yet to see any concave or convex issues.  Perhaps I am not being critical enough??  I guess I will take them all in at the first of the season and see what the pros say.  Normally I use Footloose in Mammoth, any better suggestions?

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