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Getting across the trench in big moguls - Page 6

post #151 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2010 View Post

cvj, you didn't respond to Liam's post above, and I'm not sure if your post disagrees with him. When you say "tips first," do you feel the tips must be flat (so the base of the ski hits the mogul) or should you already be on edge (so the edge of the tip hits the mogul, as Liam suggested)?

 

 

 


As laim says tips 1st on edge. If a skier pressures their skis 1st then edges the skis will make a skidding turn. Skis need be on big edge angles to make tight turns, when the mid point of the ski hits the snow or the whole edge of the ski is on the snow the ski will not load up into reverse camber. Big edging is key to making tight turns.

 

post #152 of 168

WC bump skiers work on having a flat back. For me this hurts my back. QCT uses a slightly rounded back.

 

Would like some thoughts on flat back vs slightly rounded back?

post #153 of 168

I prefer the slightly rounded back.  I also don't like the description of the back pedaling move, but recognize that it exists.  To me it is easier to think of moving the body forward down the hill which is functionally the same as moving the feet back.  It's all a matter of perspective.  Some really key into the pedal description, I don't so much although i can see it.

post #154 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I prefer the slightly rounded back.  I also don't like the description of the back pedaling move, but recognize that it exists.  To me it is easier to think of moving the body forward down the hill which is functionally the same as moving the feet back.  It's all a matter of perspective.  Some really key into the pedal description, I don't so much although i can see it.

Common ground. Agree totally.

 

post #155 of 168

Here is some cross rutting, banking off the sides and zipper lining from last season. Forgot about this video shows it. No back pedaling.

 

 

 

post #156 of 168
CVJ--as it has been repeatedly described and defined here, you most certainly do demonstrate "backpedaling" in that clip, whether you like it or not. To say otherwise is to either fail to grasp the description or to be simply trying to redefine it for some reason.

Good demo!

Best regards,
Bob
post #157 of 168

I'm sure he's demonstrating the movement although I have trouble seeing it in this particular clip.  The camera work is very shaky and it is shot from above and below, rather from the side which is the easiest angle to view it from.  I wouldn't even use footage as shaky as this, I'd just scrap it and re-shoot.  In general, I've seen less backpedaling in CVJs skiing than in some of the other SVMM guys.  Shane? really demonstrates back-pedaling very well from the side in a video that was posted earlier.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

CVJ--as it has been repeatedly described and defined here, you most certainly do demonstrate "backpedaling" in that clip, whether you like it or not. To say otherwise is to either fail to grasp the description or to be simply trying to redefine it for some reason.
Good demo!
Best regards,
Bob


 

post #158 of 168

not not not. Bronco is a trick that use to be called a 180 spread 180. New name same trick. The same goes for back pedal is some new name for putting your skis on the snow. Avalement is what we do swallow the bump from the 60's. I like it when people see what they want to see. What I see is the skier pushing straight down at the crest of the mogul  to get there skis back on the snow as the pitch of the mogul changes so dramatically and skiers confuse this movement with what you call back pedal. @ 3:49 in the shaky video I cross rutted the biggest part of the mogul and got air for the Bushwacker. If I was back pedaling you would see some reaching back but you only see the skier reaching down to the snow straight down with the tips of the ski hitting the snow 1st.

 

Also have repeated over and over.

 

 

 

 


Edited by cvj - 11/29/11 at 8:12am
post #159 of 168

So, are you backpedaling but you want us to call it Avalement?

 

Or, are you not doing it?

 

Besides the heads on view as opposed to side view, these bumps arent that big,

so less absorption is required.

 

Even with that, i would like to see more of the knees rising up and less breaking at the waist.hinge.png

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post

not not not. Bronco is a trick that use to be called a 180 spread 180. New name same trick. The same goes for back pedal is some new name for putting your skis on the snow. Avalement is what we do swallow the bump from the 60's. I like it when people see what they want to see. What I see is the skier pushing straight down at the crest of the mogul  to get there skis back on the snow as the pitch of the mogul changes so dramatically and skiers confuse this movement with what you call back pedal. @ 3:49 in the shaky video I cross rutted the biggest part of the mogul and got air for the Bushwacker. If I was back pedaling you would see some reaching back but you only see the skier reaching down to the snow straight down with the tips of the ski hitting the snow 1st.

 

Also have repeated over and over.

 

 

 

 



 

post #160 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

In general, I've seen less backpedaling in CVJs skiing than in some of the other SVMM guys.  Shane? really demonstrates back-pedaling very well from the side in a video that was posted earlier.

Agreed, TPJ--along with the rest of your post. CVJ does clearly show the movement I describe as backpedaling, although it is of course more difficult to see it from a head-on or back-to camera angle. (It would be hard to see bicyclist's circular pedaling stroke from the front or back too, although with a good enough eye and understanding of biomechanics, most people could still pick it out, don't you think?)

And you are right--CVJ does not backpedal as much as some other good skiers. It's not that he uses some alternative absorbing technique--it's more because he rarely glides. His tactics are closer to a repeated tail slap-pivot-tail slap, so he tends more toward keeping his feet in front of him between "hits," always prepared to absorb the next impact. However, to the extent that CVJ does glide and press his tips down the backside (downhill side) of the bumps, he does show the appropriate range, intensity, and timing of the backpedal motion, in my opinion.

---

If anyone is still having difficulty visualizing or understanding the so-called "backpedaling" motion, here are a few more images and analogies that may help. For The fore-aft component of the backpedal motion is identical to the fore-aft movements that a unicyclist would need to make to maintain balance if he were riding over a series of moguls. It's all about balance--essentially about keeping the line between the feet (or the contact point of the unicyclist's wheel on the ground) and the center of mass more-or-less perpendicular to the angle of the slope--which changes every instant. Although it' been posted a few times before, I'll repost this image here, of Keystone instructor and freestyle trainer Ben Atkinson negotiating a park feature that is basically a very exaggerated mogul (it's a large, steep mound of snow with a steel rail across the top). Note the fore-aft relationship of his feet and his center of mass. And notice his balance! (And if he were to ride a unicycle over this same feature, he would need to move fore-aft in a very similar way.)

287

In threads past, I"ve also described moguls--or the trough between two moguls, as simply a very small half pipe. Here's an image of former Keystone instructor Doug Benson gliding through some basic half pipe maneuvers, once again showing the obvious need to have your feet in front of you when you glide up the wall (or mogul), and to have them behind you when you glide back down. Whether you think of your body (cm) moving forward above your feet, or your feet moving back relative to your body, it is pretty much the same thing--again, simply described from different frames of reference. Here's Doug:

295

And finally, a little animation that I've also posted before, illustrating the basic movements a skier would need to make to ski from one halfpipe to another while maintaining balance in between--again, an exaggeration of the basic movements we need to ski in balance over bumps and through their troughs. It's "that" movement, once again!

201

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #161 of 168

Bob, that animation on backpedaling is special. Simplicity is it's elegance.  I  might as well chime in here because last weekend, due to high skier traffic, our deep troughs looked like canyons.  I've worked on skiing these for many years and here's what works for me. First, if you don't see it, you can't be ready for it so looking ahead is key. When I see it coming I head right down the spine toward the canyon. I make sure I get an extra turn in to slow down. On the last turn before dropping into the abyss, I compress as far as I can. You must stay balanced while compressing. If you end up on your heel you're dog meat. Once compressed, and almost stopped, my next move is to move my COM in the direction of the next turn. By moving forward, down into the canyon, I try to keep my skis on the wall of the cliff. As I'm going down I let my legs lengthen out of the compressed stance. The result is soft  contact with the bottom of the trough. With the legs being lengthened there is plenty of room for absorption if needed. At the end of the spine my direction is usually 45 degrees to the fall line. This is a relatively slow move. You can practice on the steep flats by making turns with exaggerated absorption.  Work on staying balanced the further you compress, staying perpendicular to the pitch. Your stance is so important. The angle of your back should match the angle of your shin. Like in real estate, location, location, location. In skiing, stance, stance, stance.

post #162 of 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

And finally, a little animation that I've also posted before, illustrating the basic movements a skier would need to make to ski from one halfpipe to another while maintaining balance in between--again, an exaggeration of the basic movements we need to ski in balance over bumps and through their troughs. It's "that" movement, once again!


I know there are more than a few Bears who are also mountain bikers. An analogy that helps me in this regard is to think about how I have to allow my bike to "float" loosely under me as I coast over an obstacle like a rounded boulder, or a mound on a pump track, or a teeter-totter, all the while adjusting to the pitch of the obstacle in order to keep my weight centered "between the wheels." The bike travels more vertical distance than my torso does, and its pitch changes a lot more than my torso's does. (The one place this analogy falls apart a bit is that on the bike you will find yourself letting the bike roll over the lip first and allowing your body to catch up in the "trench." In my experience that does not translate to skiing, because letting the skis go over first means you never catch up! I don't totally understand why this is, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that I'm attached to the front of the bike at the hands as well to its midpoint at the feet, so it's a lot harder to end up in the back seat.)

 

post #163 of 168

BB, I consider knees that are under extension tension to be extending, whether or not they are visibly observed as closing .  I consider intentionally closing the knees with flexion tension as retraction or flexing the knees.

 

I don't consider the knees closing/flexing under compression forces that are experienced while skiing, when the skier's knees are actually under extension tension, as flexion or retraction or have anything to do with intentionally "backpedaling".  U used to pedal my trike backwards and always had to intentionally pull my feet back by flexing my knees closed, or I stopped.

 

If I understand the concept of pedaling backwards, I so sometimes spin my bikes chain ring backwards just for kicks, in order to "pedal backwards" the knees must be consciously closed or flexed with flexion tension.  I am assuming this is true for your use of the term "backpedaling",  or you wouldn't relate the series of skiing movements to, well, pedaling backwards, or backpedaling.

 

Am I correct that in order to backpedal, the knees must be intentionally flexed with flexion tension or do consider any time the body is traveling faster than the skis, as the feet are returning under the body and knees are closing, to be "backpedaling"?   Is it backpedaling, even though the skier may be consciously exerting extension tension and is attempting to actually extend/open the knees, but the knees are being closed/flexed due to compression forces of some kind?  Compression doesn't have to be caused by a sudden change in terrain pitch, it can be experienced at the bottom of a QCT as the skis are coming back across the fall line, yet the skier's body is still maintaining speed down the fall line.

 

It would really help me to understand what tensions the knees are exerting in relationship to the backpedaling animation you provide.  3:00 o'clock for instance, 1/2 way up the mogul face, or 1/2 the way through a turn.

 

When I ski, I exert knee extension tension until the moment I breach the crest of the mogul, I then use flexion tension to close my knees in order to retract and release the turn and maintain/regain shovel edge contact to initiate the next turn down the backside of a mogul or on the edge of the groomed, it does not matter.

 

You animation has the skier use all of his flexion range before and maximized at the mogul crest and has none left to retract to release and keep the skis on the snow to immediately initiate the next turn.

In relationship to my skiing, you animation is "out of phase", regardless is you consider the skier to be backpedaling, when in reality, they are not pedaling backwards at all, but are experiencing compression forces that are flexing the knees against the resistance of extension tension.

 

I think backpedaling is actually an illusion, or maybe a myth, due to the fact that this skier is actually  not doing anything related to actually pedaling backwards when turning into a mogul face.

 

 

 

post #164 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

BB, I consider knees that are under extension tension to be extending, whether or not they are visibly observed as closing .  I consider intentionally closing the knees with flexion tension as retraction or flexing the knees.

 

I don't consider the knees closing/flexing under compression forces that are experienced while skiing, when the skier's knees are actually under extension tension, as flexion or retraction or have anything to do with intentionally "backpedaling".  U used to pedal my trike backwards and always had to intentionally pull my feet back by flexing my knees closed, or I stopped.

 

If I understand the concept of pedaling backwards, I so sometimes spin my bikes chain ring backwards just for kicks, in order to "pedal backwards" the knees must be consciously closed or flexed with flexion tension.  I am assuming this is true for your use of the term "backpedaling",  or you wouldn't relate the series of skiing movements to, well, pedaling backwards, or backpedaling.

 

Am I correct that in order to backpedal, the knees must be intentionally flexed with flexion tension or do consider any time the body is traveling faster than the skis, as the feet are returning under the body and knees are closing, to be "backpedaling"?   Is it backpedaling, even though the skier may be consciously exerting extension tension and is attempting to actually extend/open the knees, but the knees are being closed/flexed due to compression forces of some kind?  Compression doesn't have to be caused by a sudden change in terrain pitch, it can be experienced at the bottom of a QCT as the skis are coming back across the fall line, yet the skier's body is still maintaining speed down the fall line.

 

It would really help me to understand what tensions the knees are exerting in relationship to the backpedaling animation you provide.  3:00 o'clock for instance, 1/2 way up the mogul face, or 1/2 the way through a turn.

 

When I ski, I exert knee extension tension until the moment I breach the crest of the mogul, I then use flexion tension to close my knees in order to retract and release the turn and maintain/regain shovel edge contact to initiate the next turn down the backside of a mogul or on the edge of the groomed, it does not matter.

 

You animation has the skier use all of his flexion range before and maximized at the mogul crest and has none left to retract to release and keep the skis on the snow to immediately initiate the next turn.

In relationship to my skiing, you animation is "out of phase", regardless is you consider the skier to be backpedaling, when in reality, they are not pedaling backwards at all, but are experiencing compression forces that are flexing the knees against the resistance of extension tension.

 

I think backpedaling is actually an illusion, or maybe a myth, due to the fact that this skier is actually  not doing anything related to actually pedaling backwards when turning into a mogul face.

 

 

 


Nail, your definition does not make sense. If the knees are flexing they are flexing. Don't mix that up with the type of muscle contraction.

What you are missing is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_contraction#Eccentric_contraction

In other words, you are flexing with eccentric muscle contractions when you hit a mogul. Which incidently will cause you to move the feet in a backwards pedaling motion with CoM as a coordinate reference.

 

 

 

post #165 of 168

Jamt,  I don't believe there is anything wrong with my statement:

 

 

Quote:

Nail wrote:

 

I don't consider the knees closing/flexing under compression forces that are experienced while skiing, when the skier's knees are actually under extension tension, as flexion or retraction or have anything to do with intentionally "backpedaling".

 

I prefer to use the #1 definition of "flexion", which I believe is a requirement of backpedaling or pedaling backwards.

 

flex·ion (flebreve.gifkprime.gifshschwa.gifn)n.

1. The act of bending a joint or limb in the body by the action of flexors.
 

 

Quote:
Jamt wrote:
 
In other words, you are flexing with eccentric muscle contractions when you hit a mogul. Which incidently will cause you to move the feet in a backwards pedaling motion with CoM as a coordinate reference.

 

I'm glad you agree with me that BB's "backpedaling" is actually an illusion caused by compression when using advanced skiing techniques and has nothing to  do with actually pedaling backwards.

 

I do believe BB's backpedaling animation does closely simulate the movements and intentions of a skier using the pivot/slip/skid in natural terrain.  They do actually backpedal to absorb the terrain change, lift their feet/skis over the remaining bottom of the rut transition they need to clear as they pivot the skis back across the fall line. 

 

Someone posted this on another thread, it shows what I consider to be "backpedaling/absorption", both the intent and movements.    I don't consider this high level skiing, I consider it to be high level "Twist & Pound" and is dependent on backpedaling/absorption.

 

496x485px-LL-acd1b8cd_Moguls_1-17.gif

 

 

I made this animation in an attempt to properly represent the movements of advanced mogul skiing technique, either deflecting off the mogul sidewall or turning into the mogul face.

 

It seems ironic the only time flexion is used to close the knees is immediately after breaching the crest of the mogul and at this phase, the hips extend and open the most and the body is longest and floating, as a better term eludes me.  At this phase, the knees are actually opening, but are under flexion tension as the skier attempts to keep their feet below them, by pulling back to maintain/regain shovel edge contact.

 

Let's compare....

 

2ndMogulAnimation.gif

 

60a1d66a_0e4e1b2f_md.gif

 

See any differences, besides mine being crude, only having 8 frames, has a skier actually skiing and utilizing a crisp pole flick?

 

 

 

 

 
 
post #166 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

flex·ion (flebreve.gifkprime.gifshschwa.gifn)n.

1. The act of bending a joint or limb in the body by the action of flexors.
 

 


Nail, I don't know where you got your definition, but this is from Wiktionary:

 

Flexion: The act of bending a joint, especially a bone joint. The counteraction of extension

 

Extension: An exercise in which an arm or leg is straightened against resistance.

 

Your definition: knees that are under extension tension are extending, whether or not they are visibly observed as closing.

 

See why the differences in terminology has caused a lot of confusing in a number of bump threads?

 

I think you are right about backpedaling, the backward movement is something that happens becuase of the terrain features, the forward motion is where the focus is. However, it does not change the fact that the feet are moving in a backwards pedaling motion. If you try to accomplish this by actually pedaling backwards you will increase the speed to much though.

 

post #167 of 168

What I love about this animation is that it clearly shows WHY the backpedaling imagery makes sense.  As the skier approaches the front of the bump, the COM moves behind the BOS due to changing forces.  Color the boots red to really see the back pedal motion
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

 
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post #168 of 168

It is about the hands. The skier does not need to think about the back pedal. Just get the skis down on the snow as soon as possible. How else would a skier skiing a pitch that changes so fast stay on the snow?

 

The skier is only matching the pitch of the downside of the mogul. Yes back pedaling sounds really good. Never push back go forward.

 

Good instruction keeps it simple.

 

 

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