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Strength vs. Endurance vs. Plyometrics: What is the optimum blend for skiing? - Page 2

post #31 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


As regards crosstraining, one general principle to remember is that if it's not very sports-specific, it doesn't cross over much. 

 

 

 


Sport specific training is mostly useful for people who compete at a high level.  For your typical middle-aged office prisoner weekend warrior, the most important training, by far, is whatever it takes to maintain reasonable weight, adequate cardio endurance and a healthy back.  You can't really learn to ski better in th gym, but you can protect yourself from injuries by building core strength, balance and flexibility, none of which is particularly sport specific.

 

BK

 

post #32 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




 

it can be anything although MTBing(XC,DH,pumptrack just plain trail riding)  is arguelby the best form of cross training out there.

 

 

 


I don't do much mountain biking, but I've raced road bikes.  Road cycling is pretty poor cross training for skiing.  Road cyclists are at risk for weak upper bodies, stiff backs, leg strength imbalance that increases ACL injury risk, and maybe loss of bone density.  All cyclists should spend some time doing strength training and load bearing exercises.

 

BK

 

post #33 of 210



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




 

it can be anything although MTBing(XC,DH,pumptrack just plain trail riding)  is arguelby the best form of cross training out there.

 

 


BWPA, that's not cross-training.  It is too limited in nature.  It's all good stuff, but all of those activities are too one dimensional.
 

 

post #34 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


I don't do much mountain biking, but I've raced road bikes.  Road cycling is pretty poor cross training for skiing.  Road cyclists are at risk for weak upper bodies, stiff backs, leg strength imbalance that increases ACL injury risk, and maybe loss of bone density.  All cyclists should spend some time doing strength training and load bearing exercises.

 

BK

 



Good point. I've never raced, but I hop back and forth between road and mountain biking periodically. The road biking posture simply isn't as comfortable and natural, and I don't feel as rejuvenated after a road ride. The exercise itself is a lot more (how to put it?) static. You pedal forward at varying speeds and don't move around much. 

 

I can imagine that such repetitive movement with little variation would cause issues if not balanced out with some variety. Road riding is good cardio, but while mountain biking, you have to concentrate on balance, pull yourself up and over obstacles, absord shock with your legs, lean forward, lean back, sprint up a hill, coast awhile, grind out a long ascent, etc. Great translation to skiing.

post #35 of 210


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post




Sport specific training is mostly useful for people who compete at a high level.  For your typical middle-aged office prisoner weekend warrior, the most important training, by far, is whatever it takes to maintain reasonable weight, adequate cardio endurance and a healthy back.  You can't really learn to ski better in th gym, but you can protect yourself from injuries by building core strength, balance and flexibility, none of which is particularly sport specific.

 

BK

 


I agree that nothing in a standard gym will help you ski better, though it can help with injury prevention (hamstrings, e.g.,) and less fatigue.  Many middle-aged weekend warriors who do things like ride a pumptrack regularly do find it actually helps their skiing or riding technically...but that's a very small sample of weekend warriors overall, I agree.  I also think some of the specialized skates designed to mimic skiing can be very helpful, IF people will use them.

 

For the vast majority of people out there who like or love to ski but struggle to get 20 or even 10 days in, the good news is that, if they like things like MTB and/or are disciplined enough to do things like skating drills that are ski-specific, they really can plateau much later and at a higher level as skiers or riders, if they get out enough with those other activities as well.

 

post #36 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

 

Here's an example of endurance training that most people don't often think of.  It's a type of circuit training - one minuet at each station, AMRAP, - wall ball, sumo dead lift high pull, box jumps, push press and calorie row.  Rest one minuet.  Three sets.  This is high intensity training.  It is often criticized by trainers because form sometimes goes out the window.  But this type of training really works.  For what?:  General fitness.

 

It's called Fight Gone Bad.  This video shows only one set, the last.  It's a benchmark.


while I would not classify this as endurace training, more balistic strength (fwiw, yet immatereal)... this sort of high intensity, training to fatique is really what will take an athlete to the next level.  I do tons of kettlebell/plyo/olympic lift work outs to maximize my efforts in 5k, trail running & slalom
 

 

post #37 of 210

Hello,

 

I have some really specific experience with this subject, and also some specific evidence of what does (or doesn't) matter to share. 

 

I have been weightlifting for 12 years, and skiing for longer than that.  I don't have very good talent for weightlifting, so in order to get strong I have to really train hard and correctly.  When I am not putting all of my focus into lifting, my strength quickly vanishes.  This way that my body relates to weightlifting has made for some very wild fluctuations in strength over the years.  Another thing that has contributed to the fluctuations in my strength is the fact that I have worked off and on as a log peeler in the past several years.  When I am log peeling, I burn too many calories and lose strength rapidly because my body is overworked.  Log peeling sessions in my area have usually gone on for a month or two at a time and then stopped for about three months or more at a time, alternating.  Sometimes after a peeling session I have gained my strength back quickly with weightlifting and sometimes, not so much.  My body weight and strength has been quite a rollercoaster.  In the past few years I have fluctuated between weighing about 190 pounds and weighing about 170 pounds.  I never gain much fat and my strength probably fluctuates even more than my body weight.  I have moved in the last couple years which means I switched gyms, and they got rid of and replaced equipment in my current gym.  This makes it a little hard to describe my strength levels exactly, because I use a lot of machines in my workouts and the machines have been switched more than once, but I have done some work with freeweights.  At one high point in the 2009 ski season I could work out with 95 pound dumbells on both bench press and rows and I could also put a 45 on each side of an EZ curl bar and do 10 reps on preacher curls.  At one low point during this ski season (the 2011 season) I believe I had to start with 65 pound dumbells on both bench presses and rows and could only put 30 pounds on each side of the EZ curl. 

 

Anyway, with all that fluctuating, I have never noticed a difference in my skiing. 

Here is a video of me  from 2009... Exhibit A lol:  http://www.vimeo.com/23979895                                                                                 

Here is one of me in 2011... Exhibit B:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMvU_K0oUtY

If anyone has an opinion about which year I was skiing better, I'd be interested to hear it because I am undecided myself. 

 

Cardiovascularly I am probably in better shape now, but have also noticed no difference in my skiing.  As long as I don't hold my breath in the moguls, I do fine. 

 

I think that it's important to lift for skiing if you have knee trouble so that you can support your knees with more muscle.  With that in mind, maybe it gets more important to lift as we get older since many people have more joint trouble with age. 

 

I would never consider doing plyometrics.  If you want more explosive power, get stronger in the gym, it will give you a more measurable kind of progress.  If you want to get faster at a short sprint or whatever, do the sprint and time it, then lift for six months then do the sprint again and see your progress.  To me plyometrics just seems like a waste of energy that wouldn't increase strength or power anyway.  One thing that log peeling has taught me is that there is a lot of value in not overworking your body.  You'll often get stronger with less work and you can also get weaker with too much.  Here is a program based on that idea http://www.mikementzer.com/   Here is another program which makes it possible for me to get stronger every single day, any day I want to http://www.musclenow.com/   There are some similarities between the two programs because they are both designed with the non-steroid user in mind (unlike most programs you read in a magazine or book by someone like Schwarzenegger whose experience and knowledge only comes from lifting with steroids which is very different from lifting without them).  I do a cross between those two programs that works very well. 


Edited by Ronin - 10/10/11 at 7:38pm
post #38 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post




while I would not classify this as endurace training, more balistic strength (fwiw, yet immatereal)... this sort of high intensity, training to fatique is really what will take an athlete to the next level.  I do tons of kettlebell/plyo/olympic lift work outs to maximize my efforts in 5k, trail running & slalom
 

 

A lot of the people who train at my gym are also runners.  They use this type of training for endurance training, there by reducing the pounding of long slow distance.  They do still run, but they use high intensity training with lots of variety to stress the cv.  We have rowers and other athletes too.

 

Today was run 200m then 15 burpees - times 10.  It was tough.  Kicked my ass!
 

 

post #39 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post




while I would not classify this as endurace training, more balistic strength (fwiw, yet immatereal)... this sort of high intensity, training to fatique is really what will take an athlete to the next level.  I do tons of kettlebell/plyo/olympic lift work outs to maximize my efforts in 5k, trail running & slalom
 

 


If you're talking something like 5k, kettlebells or olympic lifts or plyos are highly unusual forms of training.  They would be unusual even for XC skiing for the most part. 

 

As regards skiing, the question again is what is someone trying to achieve?  If they do want to work upper body, something like http://www.jenex.com/rolltips.html roller skis could help work upper body while better simulating some aspects of alpine skiing.  Riding a pump track on a bike again works upper body in a way much more similar to skiing and riding.  Roller skis can involve a learning curve, but after that also have far less injury risk than something like heavy duty plyos. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #40 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post

H


 

  1. Should I develop lower body strength further, and is additional brute leg strength (vs. endurance, agility) even much of an advantage for skiing, if you already have a fairly strong base?
  2. At what point does developing strength become counterproductive in terms of extra body mass, etc.?
  3. Would I be better served by focusing more on plyometrics/agility skills? (And of course I will continue with my normal endurance activities.) 
  4. What do higher-level competitive skiers do? 

 


1: yes,yes

2: do not confuse strength with body mass.getting stronger will help you in everything in your life

3: no,but you still should work on these a bit as well

4: who cares,( if your not a high level comp skier) they are genetic freaks

 

Squat,deadlift ,olympic lft,run row bike fast and hard and eat right,no grains, no sugar,no dairy. Take enough fish oil so you don't get inflamed

 

post #41 of 210


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loboskis View Post




1: yes,yes

2: do not confuse strength with body mass.getting stronger will help you in everything in your life

3: no,but you still should work on these a bit as well

4: who cares,( if your not a high level comp skier) they are genetic freaks

 

Squat,deadlift ,olympic lft,run row bike fast and hard and eat right,no grains, no sugar,no dairy. Take enough fish oil so you don't get inflamed

 


The o.p. is squatting decent 5x5 numbers already and wants to ski.  That actually makes the answers something along the line of: 1.  No, no, 2 It depends, 3,  No to plyometrics, and understand that agility drills get you better at those specific agility drills, not at the demands of a different sport -- you can view agility drills as sport-specific training for the "sport" of agility drills, and 4.  the days of  really heavy weight training peaked in roughly the late 90's, and in general even more subtle forms of "steroid" use like using HGH seem less prevalent in skiing than in many other sports.

 

 

 

post #42 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


 

.  the days of  really heavy weight training peaked in roughly the late 90's, and in general even more subtle forms of "steroid" use like using HGH seem less prevalent in skiing than in many other sports.

 

 

 

When you make a statement like this, do you mean in general or are you referencing highly competitive athletes or even more specifically the US Ski Team or similar.  Strength training is still growing in the fitness industry.  I am not referring to body building.  Strength is a component of fitness and most people who are trying to get in shape for the ski season would benefit from added strength.  In fact, strength is something that can be improved quickly and it can have significant impact on not only skiing but weight loss and health in general.
 

 

post #43 of 210


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post



When you make a statement like this, do you mean in general or are you referencing highly competitive athletes or even more specifically the US Ski Team or similar.  Strength training is still growing in the fitness industry.  I am not referring to body building.  Strength is a component of fitness and most people who are trying to get in shape for the ski season would benefit from added strength.  In fact, strength is something that can be improved quickly and it can have significant impact on not only skiing but weight loss and health in general.
 

 


I was referring to high-level competitive skiers, as the context and reference within the prior post to the o.p.'s question makes clear. 

 

Within the fitness industry, I don't know that "strength training" as most people think of it, meaning either weights or machines, is growing.  There are periodic fads for different things, that have been around for years, actually decades.  In terms of sports-specific training, there's increased awareness that even for, say, a football lineman, their weightroom numbers have a low correlation to their on-field performance. 

 

I think CrossFit is a good workout, and I definitely think the physiques of the average dedicated CrossFitter probably are better than those of the average ski racer or good freeride skier.  I don't think something like CrossFit would "hurt" one's skiing, assuming you don't get injured.  But, in terms of training bang for buck, it trains a different set of systems than more closely related motion sports. 

 

post #44 of 210

you sound like an expert!

 

post #45 of 210
Thread Starter 

Hi all, I'm loving the continued replies. Always good to get a good debate. Regarding strength training, no, I am not talking about size. When doing leg work, I've been do either very low reps (3-5) or, since reading this thread, very high reps (30-50). None of the size building 8-10 range; I don't want that. Hopefully I am on the right track to develop forceful strength and avoid size with that combination. 

 

So, with that in mind, I think "it depends" on #2 is right. Building strength would not become counterproductive assuming you can do it in a way that doesn't increase bulk too much. I hope I am on a path to achieving this. (This is something I strive for with my whole body - I want high functional strength, and have no intention of developing big guns).

 

As such, CTKook, yes, I have been doing some CrossFit type workouts with kettlebells, oly lifts, other moves of that type. I like it. I also take fish oil. icon14.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

A lot of the people who train at my gym are also runners.  They use this type of training for endurance training, there by reducing the pounding of long slow distance.  They do still run, but they use high intensity training with lots of variety to stress the cv.  We have rowers and other athletes too.

 

Today was run 200m then 15 burpees - times 10.  It was tough.  Kicked my ass!
 

 

Yikes!! I do like that idea though. Those intense bursts were a type of cardio training I didn't really get before (ie getting my heart rate up near max). I've been doing 5 sets of 15-20 burpees lately when I don't have time for a proper run, and I'm on the lookout for other high-intensity moves I can work in there.  

 

Regarding my question about pro-level skiers, I know I will never be one, but it's still interesting to see what they do. I obviously wouldn't be able to mimic their workouts exactly, but some of the moves might be good to emulate.

 

Speaking of which, check out Jonny Mosseley agility workout for moguls. I don't have a way to set something exactly like this up, but it sure is cool! (both videos from mogulskiing.org):

 
I also really like the glute and core stability moves here (toward the end), for Patrick Deneen. I am already a big fan of planks, and adding the leg moves while keeping a solid center seems like a good add-on.
post #46 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

As regards crosstraining, one general principle to remember is that if it's not very sports-specific, it doesn't cross over much.  


I will respectfully disagree with this statement. There is huge cross over from training in the gym to sports performance, on skis, the tennis court, the soccer field, hockey rink...

 

Specificity is important, but it is really the tip of the iceberg. Underneath is strength, power, endurance, mobility, and agility. Build these, making sure that you build them with compound movements in all planes, and you and you will be a much, much better skier. 

 

Elsbeth

 

post #47 of 210

If you want to improve your skiing I think you need to be looking more at training your balance and coordination.  Improving those things will make a bigger difference in your skiing than improving your strength will. 

 

I don't like Pat Deneen's style of ricocheting from mogul to mogul... especially when they're machine made moguls. 

post #48 of 210


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post




I will respectfully disagree with this statement. There is huge cross over from training in the gym to sports performance, on skis, the tennis court, the soccer field, hockey rink...

 

Specificity is important, but it is really the tip of the iceberg. Underneath is strength, power, endurance, mobility, and agility. Build these, making sure that you build them with compound movements in all planes, and you and you will be a much, much better skier. 

 

Elsbeth

 


As regards sports, that crossover hasn't been demonstrated in most contexts.  For baseball, it WAS there markedly when steroids and then HGH were, more or less, legal, because the greater power from strength training directly contributed to hitting.  Certainly that was true for some track and filed events.  Using skiing, while I can think of several people who I might say look like they have a HGH chin, I can't really think of anyone who roided their way into the record books.  Some were great skiers while following heavy weight-training protocols (I believe without roIds), and then got great when they backed off the weights.  It's a skill sport.

 

Agility training has been a bust in sports. 

 

Looking at ski racing as an example, most programs have backed away from a really heavy weightlifting focus for a reason.  There are some motion sports where it's more important -- bmx racing comes to mind, because of the enormous importance of the first few seconds of those races, and to win there I agree that weights are one big key -- but ski racing doesn't have the same demands upfront.  You can't look at skiers in the weightroom, or while they're running sprints, and tell who's elite and who's not on the slopes.

 

 

 

post #49 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post


 


As regards sports, that crossover hasn't been demonstrated in most contexts.  For baseball, it WAS there markedly when steroids and then HGH were, more or less, legal, because the greater power from strength training directly contributed to hitting.

 

 

 ....but ski racing doesn't have the same demands upfront.  You can't look at skiers in the weightroom, or while they're running sprints, and tell who's elite and who's not on the slopes.

 

 

 



You can't do that with baseball, either. First you have to get the bat on the ball, which is, yes, a skill. 

 

That said, I tend to agree that balance and coordination are key -- mainly because those are my own strengths, I'm not much of a gym rat, although I do love my Bosu. 

 

And I also remember reading about Hermann Maier's return after his big crash, where he almost lost his leg. He didn't do many weights, if I remember correctly, but instead spent tons of time on a stationary bicycle. Like, way way way more than he did on skis. I should find that article... 

post #50 of 210


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post





You can't do that with baseball, either. First you have to get the bat on the ball, which is, yes, a skill. 

 

That said, I tend to agree that balance and coordination are key -- mainly because those are my own strengths, I'm not much of a gym rat, although I do love my Bosu. 

 

And I also remember reading about Hermann Maier's return after his big crash, where he almost lost his leg. He didn't do many weights, if I remember correctly, but instead spent tons of time on a stationary bicycle. Like, way way way more than he did on skis. I should find that article... 

 You're totally right that the recent baseball dopers had to be extremely good hitters, first.  But, for baseball, doping had really measurable benefits, even mid-career.  You could take someone who'd never been much of  power hitter and make one.

 

Skiing was never quite the same power game, though if you had to choose when size and power were most important, it was back a ways. 

 

 

 

 

post #51 of 210

http://www.mensjournal.com/rethinking-ski-prep

 

That isn't the article I was thinking of, but I found it when I was looking for the one I was thinking of, which is this:

 

http://www.skinet.com/skiing/weight-lifter/2005/06/train-like-a-turtle

post #52 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

http://www.mensjournal.com/rethinking-ski-prep

 

That isn't the article I was thinking of, but I found it when I was looking for the one I was thinking of, which is this:

 

http://www.skinet.com/skiing/weight-lifter/2005/06/train-like-a-turtle


Very cool, thanks for the links.

 

 

 

post #53 of 210
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post

http://www.mensjournal.com/rethinking-ski-prep

 

That isn't the article I was thinking of, but I found it when I was looking for the one I was thinking of, which is this:

 

http://www.skinet.com/skiing/weight-lifter/2005/06/train-like-a-turtle



Wow, those are really interesting articles. Sounds like a major sea change took place in training methods at the highest levels. It does make good sense:

 

"It’s not that the squats and box jumps you’ve been taught to do as autumn approaches are wrong — strength and anaerobic power are key for the short, intense bursts a downhill run requires — but what of the next run? Or the one after that?

...

In other words, since the best way to become a better skier is to ski more, it follows that anything that enables you to stay on the mountain longer would, in turn, make you a better skier. That’s supportive training: low-impact aerobic work off the slopes that lays a foundation for more and better runs once you’re on them. For the rest of us, that means more of those runs when the mind and body are fresh enough to ski any line and fewer of those wobbly afternoon survival runs when all we can think about is beer and hot tubs."

 

Indeed. My goal to begin with was fighting end-of-the-day fatigue, and that first article is pretty convincing. I like the idea of building a fitness program around endurance and balance (what I was doing before, more or less), and capping it by ensuring that the fast-twitch power muscles are still able to fire on all pistons (increasing lactic threshold?) and react quickly when needed. The latter is what I never trained for previously, but it seems counterintuitive to focus too much training for a level of power that will be useless without the ability to maintain it all day.

 

Ha, there is so much information here! I think I am more undecided now than I was when I started this thread, but at least I know my options! biggrin.gif Lots of great ideas. I love this forum!


Edited by LiveJazz - 9/23/11 at 7:14pm
post #54 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post


And I also remember reading about Hermann Maier's return after his big crash, where he almost lost his leg. He didn't do many weights, if I remember correctly, but instead spent tons of time on a stationary bicycle. Like, way way way more than he did on skis. I should find that article... 


Maier wrote a book about it, Das Rennens meines Lebens.  An English translation, The Race of My Life, is available on Amazon.  There's a review on Epic at http://www.epicski.com/products/das-rennen-meines-lebens

 

post #55 of 210

Over training has to be a consideration at this level of performance.  They spend hours on the hill and their skiing is their training.

 

I have seen where road biking is the base of off season training for top skiers.  Take a look at their legs though, most have tree trunks.  Bode is an exception.  His conditioning does not match his level of performance.

 

The article talks about aerobic training.  That would not seem true to the sport of skiing.  That's probably just my take since I suck wind when I ski.  In other words I ski anaerobically, so that type of conditioning goes a long ways for me.


Edited by Paul Jones - 9/23/11 at 4:01pm
post #56 of 210


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

Over training has to be a consideration at this level of performance.  They spend hours on the hill and their skiing is their training.

 

I have seen where road biking is the base of off season training for top skiers.  Take a look at their legs though, most have tree trunks.  Bode is an exception.  His conditioning does not match his level of performance.

 

The article talks about aerobic training.  That would not seem true to the sport of skiing.  That's probably just my take since I suck wind when I ski.  In other words I ski anaerobically, so that type of conditioning goes a long ways for me.


Actually, even for a race, most of the energy comes aerobically.  It's not as aerobic as something like motocross, but has some similarities in terms of managing something that doles out big forces regularly for an extended period. 

 

For recreational skiers/weekend warriors, I do agree as noted by lots of people that road biking might not be the best choice if you're looking for just one cross-training /summer activity, though they can get road biking much closer to skiing by doing things like slaloms and figure 8s as opposed to just going for long training rides.

 

FWIW, Bode Miller has generally been extremely well-conditioned.

 

post #57 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post



 


BWPA, that's not cross-training.  It is too limited in nature.  It's all good stuff, but all of those activities are too one dimensional.
 

 



eh is crossing traing for skiing... If you read I also do other things so that I do not over tax one set of muscles and because running keeps me leaner than just pure cycling

 

from an overall standpoint MTBing is the best there is.

 

You have strenght training in your legs, core and arms from it. Mostly legs though.

You have tactically practice of negotiating trails, this alone has made me much quicker while skiing trees.

you have cardio training

you have dynamic balance training with alot of the same sensations as skiing.

 

in my opinion and I do think its quite an educated one, its the best there is because it encompasses "staying in shape" while keeping your mind sharp for very similar tasks that you will encounter skiing. Untill your can ski smoothly purely on reaction, you will not be able to hang with someone who can ski on reaction alone.

 

 

post #58 of 210

icon14.gif
that is al
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post




I will respectfully disagree with this statement. There is huge cross over from training in the gym to sports performance, on skis, the tennis court, the soccer field, hockey rink...

 

Specificity is important, but it is really the tip of the iceberg. Underneath is strength, power, endurance, mobility, and agility. Build these, making sure that you build them with compound movements in all planes, and you and you will be a much, much better skier. 

 

Elsbeth

 



 

post #59 of 210



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




If you're talking something like 5k, kettlebells or olympic lifts or plyos are highly unusual forms of training.  They would be unusual even for XC skiing for the most part.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



I would tend not to agree..........

 

post #60 of 210

 

Quote:  From CTKook

 You're totally right that the recent baseball dopers had to be extremely good hitters, first. 

Let's not forget that many steroids result in dramatic improvement in neuromuscular efficiency, which translates to better coordination due to the improved connection between the brain and the body.  In other words, they might not have had to be that great of hitters first.  There are many kinds of steroids that can't be tested for (HGH, for example, is pretty much undetectable) and other kinds that can't be detected just a few hours after they've been taken.  I believe baseball players still use as much as ever and that that won't change anytime soon.  I've never even taken any supplements like creatine, but I have learned about these things because I have been so against steroid use.  I don't like cheaters and I have lifted in the same gym with lots of them.  I hope that there isn't much steroid use in skiing.  In the US I don't think there is. 

 

 

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