Strength vs. Endurance vs. Plyometrics: What is the optimum blend for skiing?

First off! Welcome!

Skiing is a pretty good diagnostic.  If you have to quit at 1300 hours because your legs are shot, you need to work on endurance; if you get squashed into the snow during the compression, strength training is in order;  if that compression is at the end of the run or it only happens in the afternoon, you should work on both.

You need it all of course.  But 1.5 body weight for squats of 5x5 is low.  Might be good for a runner, but not a skier.  Pro skiers have legs like tree trunks.  If you are looking to improve, then over 2times body weight for 5x5 would be getting more in the zone.  Top GS racers pull upto 3G a turn, and that is mostly on 1 leg!  Now of course they are typically with a "long and strong" leg at part of the turn pulling 3G, and it is only for a brief period of time...but you can see that 1.5 is low for 2 legs is low.

 

Of course this is a good article too, to keep it in perspective:

 

http://www.topiaroad.com/sports/skiing_snowboarding/YoureTrainingAllWrong.htm

 

I would supplement my strenght training with high rep to failure type conditioning as mentioned above.  I used a leg press machine, and would extend on the ball of the foot, and retract on the heel.  Just like skiing, and the burn....is JUST like skiing.

Edited by Skidude72 - 9/14/11 at 9:07am

Welcome aboard!

To the the question:

Your body type and supporting genetics will predispose your ideal...but you can certainly "hone" your best of what you're blessed with.

So what then?

I'm one of those that don't build a program for a specific event or to focus on a particular short coming. Rather, work everything in balance. For example, all the training examples you mentioned with outcomes of enhanced explosive power to sustained aerobic conditioning are NOT mutually exclusive at recreational level. You can however tweak your program for greater results and efficient use of time by mimicking the only 4 things your body was engineered to do: Run, Stop, Jump & Hang. Do these routines in balance, with purpose and in push-pull opposing sets.

Check your BMI, read about power to weight and study on a sustainable whole food diet of multi-colors while eating seasonal foods that have not been genetically modified.

For what god has given you in body type your job is to hone it as perfectly as possible. Set the goal of walking on this planet as lightly as you can but with cat like reflex and with fresh muscle tissue that works in groups and in whole head to toe. So much is missed by folks thinking they can "focus" on quads for skiing for example but unfortunately overlook their "out of balance" condition as the body trys desperately to compensate...normally failing with the outcome in injury. Btw...that is what "popcorn" muscle training gets ya

Remember the credo that you train for endurance but you sleep for performance. Over-training is a huge problem...as bad as thinking there are quick fixes or fad diets or supplements to shortcut improvement.

So what again? Well, take some feedback from here of course knowing that the only value it has was for the poster. You (we) are too unique for anything that comes close to a direct copy of another's routine.

I would suggest to continue to work in balance your aerobic and anaerobic exercises with purpose (working the body in compound push-pull movement with decreasing rest between sets) along with the best pre, during and post activity diet you can put together. Sleep well and repeat till season start.

Good luck.

 

Partly related to what DonDenver posted, don't forget your core strength and  hamstring strength.   

 

  I'd love to see some targets like 1x bodyweight for hamstring strength.

 

I also have to notice that your current activity blend is not well adapted to lateral motion and development of steering-type muscles.

GREAT POSTS!  I will add good

 

• nutrition and hydration, - too many/few calories? Too much fat?  too little water?
• anaerobic conditioning, many plyometric exercises are excellent for this for high output burst skiing.  totally different from running or biking as far as cardio goes.
• Train often used but overlooked muscles Don't forget to train feet and ankle muscles, hip flexors, aductors (learned the hard way), strong calves 
• flexibility You should be stretching everyday to some extent 
• Balance work on specific skill sets like jumping and landing on one foot, standing on bosu balls with your eyes closed and even hopscotch-like drills to improve foot work.  High speed 2 foot jumping back and forth on bosu balls etc.

 

as mentioned don't underestimate your core which includes back and neck; you can do 2-3 1/2 hour core workouts a week.

 

I will say that unless you are training for serious race type skiing, you do not need tree-trunk legs You need strong legs and core and you need to be flexible

 

 

My quick answers to your qs followed by what I think your best bet is for training for skiing:

 

 

1. Should I develop lower body strength further, and is additional brute leg strength (vs. endurance, agility) even much of an advantage for skiing, if you already have a fairly strong base?

 

Yes. Yes you should.

 

1. At what point does developing strength become counterproductive in terms of extra body mass, etc.?

 

Don't confuse strength with size. GSP weighs 170. He is strong but not big. More strength will pretty much always be good. 

 

1. Would I be better served by focusing more on plyometrics/agility skills? (And of course I will continue with my normal endurance activities.) 

 

You'd be well served augmenting strength with plyos and agility work, but you would be very unwise to replace strength work with it.

 

1. What do higher-level competitive skiers do? 

 

Depends who it is. There is huge variability in what top athletes in all sports do. Pretty much pick any fitness approach and you'll find guys/girls at the pro levels who follow it. Looking at the pros is often not helpful as talent trumps training every time. If you do want to get a good idea of which pros train smartly, look for the ones who perform well but don't get injured. Although in skiing that metric is less telling than in other sports on account of the whole falling thing. 

 

My philosophy for training skiers:

1. strength should be the foundation. If you're not strong, nothing else really matters. Of this, some of your strength training should be single leg. and some must be core. Think past the abs. For sports performance and injury prevention, it's rotational core strength that will have the biggest impact. Don't ignore the upper body, as the body moves relative to itself. If your upper body is too weak, it can affect your balance and your ability to drive your lower body. 
2. Mobility will be next in the hierarchy. Movement limitations will seriously impact your skiing ability, and leave you susceptible to injury. Stretch, activate and foam roll.
3. I'd put power as the next most important quality for skiing. Some would say endurance, but I think you get endurance as a side-benefit of strength training if you do it smartly (circuits). But I wouldn't jump down someone's throat for suggesting endurance counts more than power. I view power as the tool that allows you to generate spontaneous bursts when needed - like to deal with a sudden change in terrain (hello bumps!). Kind of important in a sport like ours. I don't think you need a lot of power training, but you want some. Plyometrics are great for this, but be careful with volume. If you don't have the underlying strength, and you do too many reps of plyomoetric exercises, you can set yourself up for injury.
4. Endurance is next - but as I said - it's a close 4th behind power. You'll already get this if you're doing everything else right. And in fact, based on what you stated - that you've been cycling and running, you probably don't need much more endurance. I would suggest, in fact, that you don't actually gain much strength from those activities, but you do develop a lot of endurance - both from an energy system perspective (cardio) and from a muscle endurance perspective (strength-endurance). But if you do primarily long distance cycling and running without many hills, then you will want to think about working on anaerobic conditioning. Think about alternating short bursts of high intense effort followed by rest.
5. Agility is an add-on. I like to do it with clients because it's fun. Theoretically it helps with foot speed, which along with power will help in the bumps and with "recovery balance", but I'm not 100% convinced it is really that helpful for skiing - what I mean is that I"m not convinced agility work really improves foot speed or whether that's pretty genetically determined. The fun factor alone probably makes it worthwhile though. But it would be the first thing I would cut if I had time constraints.  

 

That's how I do it. 

 

Elsbeth

 

So there is a set rate or amount that needs to be attained?  I have been training for 3 years and lifting seriously.  My weight is 190# and my back squat is 250#.  It has made a tremendous difference in my ability to ski stronger and longer.  It sounds like I don't make the grade.  I'm 57 so maybe that can be an excuse.  I have skinny legs and I am not on the National team or Pro.

 

These are low bar back squats - using a bar.  The back squat 5,5,5,5,5 and 3,3,3,3,3 and 3,2,21,1 - the dead lift in a similar set and cleans, squat cleans, snatch and clean and jerks - they all have made me stronger, including core.  But not to the extent of Skedude72's level of excellence.
 

 

I swear by a general approach with met-cons for high intensity and oly lifting for strength.

 

Nutrition rounds it out.  Everyone talks about the importance of nutrition, but no one states exactly what they mean.  Mine is Paleo!
 

 

I will let those more qualified than I tell you about ski-specific training programs, nutrition, and weight routines; I'm very much an amature in that area.

However I have often trained, worked, skied, biked, swam, and done other things to exhaustion, so I can share a few things.

 

The symptoms you describe are due to fatigue, so you need to work on endurance, BUT it is more a fatigue of the smaller ancillary controlling muscles than fatigue of the major movers.  Some people refer to it as core strength (core endurance is more like it, but I haven't heard it called that, anyone ?).  Whatever strength/endurance training you do, I would recommend free weights instead of a machine that locks you into a groove and takes over the job of those supporting muscles.

 

Also, make sure you drink enough fluids (other than booze); dehydration makes the sloppiness (not to mention the dizziness) that accompanies exhaustion a lot worse.

 

One more thing, if you decide to go for strength, make dam sure you have the motion down pat before you go high weight low reps; don't bust a gut!
 

 

True and eating right during the day makes a big difference, too.  I often skip lunch or eat too little only to crash and burn later.  A good day for me is when I pack my own lunch.  A bad day is when I chow down on Reeces Peanut Butter Cups.

 

Dude you make the grade!!!!

 

 Here is my take on basic training:

   1) have a base level first.  Be honest & realistic w/ yourself.  Biking, running, soccer, gym circuits, B-ball, bowling.... get started & eat right.

   2) Plyo's & strength training come next: here is where most fail.  NO JUNK TRAINING.  If you engage in this, find a pro & go for it.  Be safe, but do with intention.  If you can lift 100 or 600, find the right challenge & get there.  10 min of seroius training beats 6 hours of crap.

   3) Core,Core,Core....& Core.

   4) Rest /Sleep

 

 

 

When I was still an active race coach, I took a strength training clinic with the trainers from the USOC Training Center in Lake Placid.  They contradicted just about everything anyone has written in this thread.

They emphasized core strength, balance and endurance.  That means light weights (or body weight only) and high reps on unstable surfaces.  Lots of exercises on one leg, exercises that worked the rotational muscles of the trunk, and crazy things ordinary humans can't do on exercise balls.  Squats with big weight went out of favor when shape skis arrived.  They totally objected to leg press machines, because they take the back muscles out of the load path.  That doesn’t allow the development of core strength or balance skills.  Think about it: why would you want your legs to be strong enough to carry a weight your back couldn’t support? Or that you couldn’t balance?

The most surprising (to me) thing the USOC coaches had to say was that they don’t use plyometrics with juniors, because the risk of injury is too high.  But that was for 18 or 19 year old elite athletes, so if you are a 40 year old desk jockey 15 day a year recreational skier, YMMV.

The OP is obviously not a pro skier, so he’s probably doesn’t pull 2g’s very often.  Recreational skiing doesn’t require exceptional leg strength, and recreational skiers suffer fatigue more often from poor balance and backseat skiing than from lack of leg strength in my experience.  Skiers should focus their training on the things that will protect them from injury after a fall, not on trying to improve performance by strength.   That means core strength, flexibility and balance.

BK

A great source for information on functional movement and fitness for skiing is TOTAL SKIING by Chris Fellows.  This book has been highly recommended on this site.

This stuff will really help me. I've been getting so bad by the end of a ski day that I cannot move before going to bed. The next day is usually spent hoping each run is shorter then the last. NOT GOOD. Looking forward to building up some strength and this is a great ground 0. Thanks!

 

Here's an example of endurance training that most people don't often think of.  It's a type of circuit training - one minuet at each station, AMRAP, - wall ball, sumo dead lift high pull, box jumps, push press and calorie row.  Rest one minuet.  Three sets.  This is high intensity training.  It is often criticized by trainers because form sometimes goes out the window.  But this type of training really works.  For what?:  General fitness.

 

It's called Fight Gone Bad.  This video shows only one set, the last.  It's a benchmark.

QFT-  why risk injuries and train muscles to act in a way they will not be used in the real world of skiing or bike riding.   Want the best training tool for a small investment?  Go buy 2 bosu balls and a large exercise ball.  one of my favorites is squats with dumbbells while standing on a bosu ball. keep strict form. first time you do them you will probably fall off. 
 

 

Gym workouts MEH....

 

If your going to work out with out playing which I have no idea how people actually put themselves though that I would follow Iriponsnow stuff.

How old are you? Look around at the 50 and 60 and 70 year olds that you know, and ask them what they do for exercise.  Talk to the ones who go to the gym, and the ones who don't.  Then ask yourself how you want to live when you are 70, and how you are going to get there.

 

BK
 

 

27....

 

I coach a couple 50s 60s year old who ride mountain bike(techy XC no real hard core stuff) and I can say without a doubt that they do not go to the gym. If I am doing as well as them at their age Ill be more than happy.

 

My point is the minute your start to workout its work. Find fun outdoor pursuits. if its fun youll probably stick to it, if its work its work.

 

Riding a bike doesn't do much for me.  It's not an activity that I would find fun.  Working out in a gym would probably bore the $#it out of you.  To each his own.  If I were to take up riding and actually do it, I am sure it would help my conditioning.  But riding is an activity that needs to be complemented by other types of conditioning.  Ideally, we should train in a general manner and participate in a variety of activities, even golf.

 

Most 50 plus men would benefit from heavy lifting to round out their riding.

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, I know a couple older people who go to the gym, and actually workout while there, and yes I'd like to be able to be in their shape at their age.  I also know a lot who go to the gym and barely break a sweat and, while it's still good they do something to break a sweat, they are far from fit.

 

I also know a number of fit old people who never go to the gym. 

 

As regards crosstraining, one general principle to remember is that if it's not very sports-specific, it doesn't cross over much.  It can still be a good thing if it helps with some demand of the sport -- for instance, developing hamstrings before ski season starts.  For plyometrics, the explosive demands that even a very athletic skier or rider experiences in, say, bumps or steeps, are better mimicked by something like MTB or even skateboarding or surfing than the are by doing various jumping drills.  Plus, the bundle of physical, reflex, and cognitive skills that you use while skiing or riding are better developed by something like MTB as well, or even by something like scree running.

 

 

 

The problem with this line of thinking for older guys is that specific training requires high level coaching.  If you can integrate the drills that irip offered, that would be great.  But general fitness is very beneficial to a sport like skiing.  The constant corrections in movement and balance, core strength requirements and the use of such a wide variety of muscles is general in nature.  As mentioned earlier, activities are an important part of any training program.

 

Working out in a group setting is fun and with great coaching all ages will develop general physical preparedness.  From there an athlete can "tweek" their program.  Older folks need to stay on top of their strength.  Strength training offers a strong basis to build upon for any direction you may want to go.
 

 

 

it can be anything although MTBing(XC,DH,pumptrack just plain trail riding)  is arguelby the best form of cross training out there.

 

but let me say it again it can be anything. I personally do not just ride either.