Originally Posted by Skidude72
Then link the thread. I found your two "references" on google books, or amazon books and linked them in that other thread I believe, or people can look it up themselves....again, if you are so sure, link it! The opening paragraphs put the whole thing in context. The intent was to dig in BEFORE you got moving. Ie Loose your footing, dig back in quick before you get sliding. Makes sense. But it clearly stated that once moving it would not work. Ie when skiing, you are already moving. It also stated that it would only work in soft snow, not on hard icy surfaces, which is common in really steep windblown faces, or those that had a slab avalange earlier. Your advice is great for someone who is just standing there, then suddenly "wipes out" and their skis blow off. I assumed anyone skiing in extreme terrain was beyond that stage, and had DIN settings higher then 2 or would not have their binding packed with snow. But hey people have pointed out that I assume too much here. Do you deny those references related to mountain climbing????
For the record, you are right, I have never had an ass over tea kettle fall in extreme terrain. So never needed to self arrest. If you say this is no experience, well ok. By that logic driving instructors should be the ones with the most accidents and traffic violations because they have the most experience. Or the best fight coach is the one who got knocked out the most. I am sure several comedys used similiar plot lines for their movies. Smart and knowledable skiers know that if you crash in such scenarios your chances of stopping are nil, hence why we all say dont crash there. A common phrase among skiers who do this stuff, is "If you crash, you die". There is a reason we say that, it is not intended to be bravado, quiet the oppoiste, it means never ski beyond your limits. The great late Trevor Peterson used to say, "It always takes more guts to not do a line, then to do it."
If you want to brag now about how you wipe out on steep runs all the time, and manage to stop yourself, great. But I am strongly of the view that this is because A: the runs you call extreme, really are not that steep, and B: you are skiing really really slow. I am sorry but I just wouldnt take advice from such a guy because clearly he has no experince in the situations that are applicable to the people he is giving advice to!
Correction: I was just reminded of one ass over tea kettle crash I had in extreme terrain, I went skis, head skis head skis head, backwards! I thought I was dead, literally I remeber thinking this is it. Fortuantley I never hit anything which is amazing cause there was trees and rocks everywhere, and stopped when I hit the bottom. After that, I laid there for about 15 minutes and caught my breath, then went home. Nothing would have stopped that fall. And after having done a "tumbler", if I ever fall again (knocking all wood in the house that I dont) I sure as can be would never ever do anything that might induce another tumbling scneario. Lay flat, and try to control your descent, that is the best advice anyone could give.
ATT all posters, I apologize in advance this is pissing match is between skidude and I, so please don't waste your time reading. seriously, i am sorry.
First off, The best advice is to tell people to try and stop. :) I could care less what you do to yourself.
2nd, YES I DENY IT AND I SUGGEST YOU READ THE ATTACHED LINK AGAIN, clearly says, and I QUOTE, " The Hands-only self arrest technique is surprisingly effective, even on very firm snow where you might be skeptical that any arrest would work. It will work while holding poles in your hand and it will work while holding an ax in one hand. Its a method SKI MOUNTAINEERS use when they lose it on the steeps - AND ski mountaineers tend to be moving briskly when they lose it. Its the best method by far if you've lost your ax as you pitch forward or backward-far better than gaining speed while you reel in your ax and attempt a traditional ax arrest"
here is the actual description of the method
1. get your but in the air
2. place your feet wide apart
3. weight on your toes, stomach off the snow
4 cup your gloved hands
5. do a push up on your hands
6. look down hill.
Now the last paragraph covers what to do IF YOU ARE WEARING CRAMPONS and does talk about NOT digging your crampons in if you are at speed, so maybe you are getting mixed up when you read it. And that is because a crampon will 100% dig in. Ski boots are a far cry from crampons, hence the entire sentence about ski mountaineers using this technique and that they are moving briskly when they lose it. (not to say that ski boots won't dig in, but not as easily as crampons and when the option is death, choose dig in). Lastly, it concludes with a conventional arrest on a steep ice glacier nothing will work...actually says, a conventional arrest on such surfaces is virtually impossible (meaning any type of arrest your going to hit, but try anyways).
A hands only self arrest, (which is what you would use if you didn't have ski's on or an Ice axe or like the article says, even if you have them you can still do the hands only arrest while still holding your axe on a leash or ski poles etc..) is done at any time in any condition speed or no speed (try it or die trying). Now if you are just trying to stop because you don't want to climb back up as far to get your gear and there is nothing under you then obviously a controlled slide will do, however that is NOT in extreme terrain and not what you or I are talking about. So I am a bit confused when you say your method is to steer around objects, as that would not be an option according to your own definition of extreme terrain.
Here is the mountaineering handbook says,http://books.google.com/books?id=3hgJ0gvwIIIC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=self+arrest+methods&source=bl&ots=xMYpTOm3Ly&sig=GhSDHKQPA24x_NTMlYu1gk5fN7Q&hl=en&ei=OZQzTuGaLu_-sQKcwNCXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=self%20arrest%20methods&f=false
Amercain alpine institute says about various types of self arrest and specifically mentions using feet, no where does it say anything that you claim. link is also attached at the bottom for you again.... .PS. when you are no longer attached to your ski's you are now mountaineering....
It is breezed over in the video, but the best way to self-arrest is to avoid falling. Good snow climbing technique should be practiced on low-angle slopes so that when you are on high-angle slopes it comes as second nature.
We teach the piolet canne (cane) position as the baseline position. We only hold the piolet in the self-arrest position when it appears that a fall is likely. As the piolet canne position is the most stable walking position and it provides the most security, we like to see people move up the mountain in this position. One should practice self-arrest starting from the piolet canne position.
There is some debate on whether you should put your feet up or not. The concern -- as the guide in the video points out -- is that if you put your feet down and your crampon points catch, that you might flip head-over-heels. On the other hand, it might stop you more quickly. We teach people to put their toes into the snow to arrest the fall.
skidude just one more thing, sounds like your fall was (using your own words and comments towards me on another post) a Darwin award in the making... touche