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Is EpicSki a Legit Tool for Learning (to Ski)? - Page 3

post #61 of 88



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

Yes -- it would be amazing if instructors taught on-line with the same attention to student learning as they do on-slope. That includes providing visual demonstrations. 

 

 

Nolo, On line ski teaching is a bit like phone sex. It's just words and should not be confused with the real thing eek.gif

 

 

 

Tromano, I feel it's wrong to complain about pros debating ideas instead of teaching those who come to the site seeking free lessons. I've personally helped more than a few folks along their learning path and done so with no expectation of being compensated. I've also participated in more than a few instructor to instructor debates. But isn't it really my choice how I choose to participate here? Of course when you start paying me that all changes and you certainly would have the right to insist on me only teaching your members. Till then, any teaching I do here is strictly voluntary and my choice. Nuff said?

 

But we're drifting, Epic disclaims any responsibility for what gets posted here so it's hard for me to see them taking credit for what gets posted here, or any learning that occurs because of those posts. The value is in the information voluteers share with others and credit needs to go out to those pros, not to the web site itself.

post #62 of 88



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Nolo, On line ski teaching is a bit like phone sex. It's just words and should not be confused with the real thing eek.gif

 

Tromano, I feel it's wrong to complain about pros debating ideas instead of teaching those who come to the site seeking free lessons. I've personally helped more than a few folks along their learning path and done so with no expectation of being compensated. I've also participated in more than a few instructor to instructor debates. But isn't it really my choice how I choose to participate here? Of course when you start paying me that all changes and you certainly would have the right to insist on me only teaching your members. Till then, any teaching I do here is strictly voluntary and my choice. Nuff said?

 

But we're drifting, Epic disclaims any responsibility for what gets posted here so it's hard for me to see them taking credit for what gets posted here, or any learning that occurs because of those posts. The value is in the information voluteers share with others and credit needs to go out to those pros, not to the web site itself.

 

I was hardly complaining. Of course it is your choice how you participate here. I think it is great that people want to volunteer their time to help.


Edited by tromano - 9/5/11 at 10:17am
post #63 of 88

OMG! Now we don't know our role at Epic? As an Epic Ambassador are you speaking officially for the Epicski company and demanding instructors work for free here at Epic? In case you and others don't understand this, let me state this clearly, advice and tips offered here are done so voluntarily and should not be confused with a comprehensive ski lesson you would buy at your local ski resort.

post #64 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

...As an Epic Ambassador...



Become an EpicSki Resort Ambassador
post #65 of 88

Getting back to the original topic, I think the answer is yes, at least I have improved from Epic.  I may be unusual.  I have a friend who's more unusual; he taught himself entirely from a book.

 

Anyway, consider a few types of learners: thinkers, seers, feelers.  Only the first type can get much from reading a forum such as Epic.  Videos can help seers.

 

Being a "thinker" alone won't do it, though.  A person also needs to have substantial body awareness and body control.  Rephrased, they need to translate easily between thinking, seeing and feeling.

 

Also, a person needs to be able to sort through all the online chaff to find the wheat.  This requires internet experience, lurking for a while, seeing who gets respect and who doesn't.  Things need to pass the "sniff test".  A learner needs to read the words and visualize what they mean and will feel like to do that.

 

Finally, there isn't much good learning in an online vacuum.  People need to get on the hill and try things and practice.  Some things will "work" and others won't.  Even with an instructor, this can be the case.  Reading some well-respected books is also a good idea to complement Epic.

 

In short, I think it can be done, by a subset of people.  Will it be the fastest way?  Probably not, but the price is nice.

post #66 of 88
Thread Starter 

JASP, I never meant to suggest that EpicSki take the credit for anyone learning here in any other sense than as a TOOL. It is not a source, per se, though certainly many members here are valid sources of information from which learning might be had. That's the sum total of my initial "check for understanding."  

post #67 of 88

Epic has helped me understand more about the technical aspects of skiing, even though understanding/decoding all acronyms was a beach (sp?) before I discovered the acronym finder online. Inputs from highly skilled skiers is something I treasure and have enabled me to give better advice to others.

 

In that respect I do think it's a tool.

post #68 of 88

Thanks for clarifying that Nolo.

post #69 of 88

In my opinion, I strongly believe that EpicSki can be a Legit tool for learning!!!  I for one have learned a great deal here.  Having MA of yourself critiqued can get pretty harsh, but for those of us who don't have many upper level instructors around to critique us, having your skiing looked at here can really help you figure out what your doing wrong and you can learn many different ways to correct it.  All of the advice might not be correct, but if it's not...someone will be sure to let you know!wink.gif

post #70 of 88

Epic has been part of my growth as a skier and an instructor. To that extent the community should leverage this success to promote the growth of the community. Most people don't realize that the community as a financial entity is not a very strong one. There has been significant financial investment and risk taken on by a select few and a lot of volunteer effort invested in keeping the community healthy. To the extent that these kinds of success stories (however they happen) can help attract more members and more discussion, the community will become stronger and we'll all be better off.

post #71 of 88

Good point TheRusty!!!  Last year I ran a weekly clinic for instructors who wanted to train for their Level I and Level II certifications with P.S.I.A.  On the first day of the clinic, I gave each instructor the website to this invaluable site along with directions on how to order a copy of The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing by Bob Barnes.  I told them all that I know that they definitely helped me in my quest for higher certification and as an added bonus, they were going to meet a lot of great people who shared their passion for the sport.

 

One of the candidates who was successful in obtaining his Level I this year and is going for Level II next season joined just a week or two ago!  Yay QuintinAdam and Welcome!  Hopefully the others will take my advice to heart too! 

post #72 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

OMG! Now we don't know our role at Epic? As an Epic Ambassador are you speaking officially for the Epicski company and demanding instructors work for free here at Epic? In case you and others don't understand this, let me state this clearly, advice and tips offered here are done so voluntarily and should not be confused with a comprehensive ski lesson you would buy at your local ski resort.

 

I am not demanding that you do anything. You said you do not take your contributions to epic seriously because you are an unpaid volunteer... And I said I think that is generally true for many participants in that forum. I think this is a perfectly legitimate point of view. I am simply stating the facts which we agree on, that the feedback people get in the forum is not a substitute for a real lesson with a real instructor who does take their job seriously.

 

As far as what the role of that forum is, the posting guidelines linked here explain what the purpose of the forum is. See posting guidelines. The above highlighted and emphasized passage summarizes my point perfectly. The problem I have is that I never see this communicated so clearly. I had to figure it out for myself. Other forums, for example to boot fitting forum clearly explain the limitations, e.g. that you cannot be fit for boots on line. Sadly the instruction forum does not come out and tell you as a reader that the best way to learn to ski is in person at your local ski resort.


Edited by tromano - 9/2/11 at 7:37am
post #73 of 88

Wow! Now I don't take what I do seriously? Since when? As one of the first few who were asked to serve on the Epic "ask a ski pro" panel I can say I doubt that would have happened if Epicski thought I didn't take what I write seriously. Nor would I have served on that panel if I didn't take helping others seriously. Maybe you should stick to what you know instead of making silly statements based on very faulty assumptions about others.

 

Nolo's last post was very clearly written and I suggest you re-read it. Then re-read what I wrote about coaches offering advice and tips. It's strictly voluntary and has never been represented to be as comprehensive as an actual lesson. Do I sometimes offer that level of detail and attention? Absolutely, quite often in fact. But to be clear here there is no such requirement made of me, or any other instructor, or coach. I'm not sure where you got that inpression but you're wrong Tromano, the "role" you speak of doesn't exist. The closest thing would have been the "Ask a Ski Pro" forum that went away a while back. BTW, that instructor label you see next to a members avitar is only available to supporters, which means instructors pay for the exposure but even then they are not duty bound to teach here.

 

IMO you should be thanking those who volunteer, not whining about their efforts.  

 

post #74 of 88

 

Quote:Jasp
IMO you should be thanking those who volunteer, not whining about their efforts.  

 

Since you brought it up. Thank You, to you and all of the ski pros who post here and willingly share their knowledge of skiing. I'm always amazed that those make their living at teaching skiing are so eager to give away their livelihood for free. 

 

I don't think you can learn to ski by reading a ski forum but you can certainly learn about skiing by reading the forum. Of course that also depends on your ability to filter out the useful information from the blather.

post #75 of 88

Thanks Bill, I am not really seeking kudos here as much as trying to explain how the instructor - Epicski relationship works. I feel that when that voluntary teaching relationship becomes mandatory many of our coaches will stop participating. Additionally, while criticism of that free advice is certainly welcome, when it comes across as ungratefulness on the part of the students that is a problem. Especially if that criticism is based on the erroneous assumption that instructors should limit their participation to teaching our less experienced members. That would be like telling Tromano to limit his/her posting to marketing for their resort simply because they are a voluntary Epic ambassador for that resort. IMO, placing such limitations on any member makes absolutely no sense.

post #76 of 88

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

 

 The instructors participanting in the forum do not take take their role seriously in my view, probabbyl for the reasons you stated.

 

Wow Tim,

 

I'm sure you have read some of my stuff here through the years, (and for those reading I have been on the hill with tromano on several days at more than one Gathering).

 

  I would be surprised if you really think I don't take my role(s) here seriously. 

 *   Organizing multiple Gatherings and the Let's Go Colorado series (8 events) 

 *   Always pulling a person or two aside at every Gathering to give them several hours of free instruction as well as guiding others to the "secret stashes" at areas I know well.

 *   Writing  many posts on technical topics on fourms here 
 

Originally Posted by BillAView Post

(UL response in blue)

Since you brought it up. Thank You, to you and all of the ski pros who post here and willingly share their knowledge of skiing. I'm always amazed that those make their living at teaching skiing are so eager to give away their livelihood for free.  (Thanks, Bill)

 

I don't think you can learn to ski by reading a ski forum but you can certainly learn about skiing by reading the forum. Of course that also depends on your ability to filter out the useful information from the blather.     I think many of you here have seen me take on some of the "yahoos" and many (simply uninformed)  posters that post stuff that it technically "off the wall" with the interest of trying to filter the information for the readers here at Epic.  I consider it highly important the readers here get information that is useable and technically correct.

 


Mr. Romano,

 

If you are going to stand behind your statement above as it refers to me specifically  please, by all means say so in this thread, and you can all consider this my last post here at EpicSki.
 

 

post #77 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

Wow Tim,

 

I'm sure you have read some of my stuff here through the years, (and for those reading I have been on the hill with tromano on several days at more than one Gathering).

 

  I would be surprised if you really think I don't take my role(s) here seriously. 

 *   Organizing multiple Gatherings and the Let's Go Colorado series (8 events) 

 *   Always pulling a person or two aside at every Gathering to give them several hours of free instruction as well as guiding others to the "secret stashes" at areas I know well.

 *   Writing  many posts on technical topics on fourms here 

Mr. Romano,

 

If you are going to stand behind your statement above as it refers to me specifically  please, by all means say so in this thread, and you can all consider this my last post here at EpicSki.


Certainly not. I think you are taking my comments a bit out of context.

 

I was replying to JASP, and I intended to maintain the same context that I used in post 40, but I was out of town and did not qualify things properly. As I said in post 40 in this thread I think there is a small but substantial segment of the people who do reply in these threads that are either not really interested in answering questions and do not provide the same level of feedback as I would expect if I asked an instructor a question in a private lesson. This is the group I was referring to, not literally everyone.

post #78 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Thanks Bill, I am not really seeking kudos here as much as trying to explain how the instructor - Epicski relationship works. I feel that when that voluntary teaching relationship becomes mandatory many of our coaches will stop participating. Additionally, while criticism of that free advice is certainly welcome, when it comes across as ungratefulness on the part of the students that is a problem. Especially if that criticism is based on the erroneous assumption that instructors should limit their participation to teaching our less experienced members. That would be like telling Tromano to limit his/her posting to marketing for their resort simply because they are a voluntary Epic ambassador for that resort. IMO, placing such limitations on any member makes absolutely no sense.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Wow! Now I don't take what I do seriously? Since when? As one of the first few who were asked to serve on the Epic "ask a ski pro" panel I can say I doubt that would have happened if Epicski thought I didn't take what I write seriously. Nor would I have served on that panel if I didn't take helping others seriously. Maybe you should stick to what you know instead of making silly statements based on very faulty assumptions about others.

 

Nolo's last post was very clearly written and I suggest you re-read it. Then re-read what I wrote about coaches offering advice and tips. It's strictly voluntary and has never been represented to be as comprehensive as an actual lesson. Do I sometimes offer that level of detail and attention? Absolutely, quite often in fact. But to be clear here there is no such requirement made of me, or any other instructor, or coach. I'm not sure where you got that inpression but you're wrong Tromano, the "role" you speak of doesn't exist. The closest thing would have been the "Ask a Ski Pro" forum that went away a while back. BTW, that instructor label you see next to a members avitar is only available to supporters, which means instructors pay for the exposure but even then they are not duty bound to teach here.

 

IMO you should be thanking those who volunteer, not whining about their efforts.  

 

 

The point of this thread is to answer the question, is epic ski a legit tool? I said there is room for improvement and was trying to expand on that and provide some constructive feedback towards improvements(or in your words "complaining"). The only real complaining I have seen in this thread is you complaining about me. You should thank me for volunteering my time to give feedback so the forum might be improved. wink.gif

 

As far as gratitude, I always have thanked people who have helped me on this forum and in real life. You said that "students" giving criticism that comes across as ungratefulness is a problem. I am not your student so there really is nothing that I have to be grateful towards you for, how is that a problem?

 

As far as assuming things... the forum is called Ski Instruction and Coaching. When it is in the name, that's not called assuming, that's called reading. The posting guide lines  specifically state:

 

The mission of the Instruction and Coaching forum is to provide Epicski users a place to ask questions and participate in civil discussions on ski technique and instruction and for receiving useful ski coaching online.

 

I was not assuming that the instruction that I receive at epic is the same as real instruction, I read that in the posting guidelines. Personally, in my experience, there is a big distinction between what you get in a "real lesson" and what you might get at epic.

 

I think it is great that you are talking about helping people. 

 

AS far as what that means... When I ask an my real instructor a question he gives me a clear well explained simple answer. And that's what I want to get out of a ski lesson something that I can understand, take away and work on independently. He has never sat there for a week to debate his fellow instructors on a range of issues which meander far outside the scope of my question using various unclear and inconsistent vocabulary, and then provide the transcripts for my "benefit".  If he wants to do that its for his benefit, or the benefit of his fellow instructors, not for mine.

 

In conclusion I am going to say that you seem to have completely misread my posts. I really don't know where you are coming from talking about how I am some how speaking for epic company (as an ambassador? are you not at all familiar with the ambassador program? or was that a poor attempt at sarcasm?) or dictating policy, or making unreasonable assumptions, or being ungrateful to anyone, or trying to silence people, or stop participation, or whatever. I just don't understand what you are talking about or where you are coming from on these issues. I have added my $.02 to the topic and am done here.


Edited by tromano - 9/4/11 at 11:34pm
post #79 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post

 

 

As far as assuming things... the forum is called Ski Instruction and Coaching. When it is in the name, that's not called assuming, that's called reading. The posting guide lines  specifically state:

 

The mission of the Instruction and Coaching forum is to provide Epicski users a place to ask questions and participate in civil discussions on ski technique and instruction and for receiving useful ski coaching online.

 

I was not assuming that the instruction that I receive at epic is the same as real instruction, I read that in the posting guidelines. Personally, in my experience, there is a big distinction between what you get in a "real lesson" and what you might get at epic.

 

I think it is great that you are talking about helping people. 

 

AS far as what that means... When I ask an my real instructor a question he gives me a clear well explained simple answer. And that's what I want to get out of a ski lesson something that I can understand, take away and work on independently. He has never sat there for a week to debate his fellow instructors on a range of issues which meander far outside the scope of my question using various unclear and inconsistent vocabulary, and then provide the transcripts for my "benefit".  If he wants to do that its for his benefit, or the benefit of his fellow instructors, not for mine.

 



Funny, but I think you have assumed alot and have misread.  You seem to entirely miss the "and".  This place is primarily a place where instructors and coaches get together to discuss ski technique amongst themselves...ie "Epic Users".  Users includes us too.  Sure there is another element where people can ask for help, and from my experience without exception they get it.  Simple clear advice.  9 pages isnt necessary for that, the advice is usually given within the first 5 or so posts.  After that the usual debate ensues, not sure why that matters?  Someone asked for advice, they got it, then it became a topic starter.....so?  How does the ensuing debate somehow minimise the value of the free advice already given?  It dont.  Problem is, rarley do the people who have asked for advice know what to listen to, or whom. 

 

post #80 of 88

Tim, I have trouble believing you're sincere because as a resort ambassador it is your duty to understand the various ski school products available at the resort and at Epic. It is also your responsibility to represent the resort and Epicski in a positive way. Writing and posting anything that denigrates either, or could be seen as negative towards either seems in congruent with that ambassador's role. That is exactly what I meant when I posted my comments about you representing the Epicski community.

 

post #81 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Funny, but I think you have assumed alot and have misread.  You seem to entirely miss the "and".  This place is primarily a place where instructors and coaches get together to discuss ski technique amongst themselves...ie "Epic Users".  Users includes us too.  Sure there is another element where people can ask for help, and from my experience without exception they get it.  Simple clear advice.  9 pages isnt necessary for that, the advice is usually given within the first 5 or so posts.  After that the usual debate ensues, not sure why that matters?  Someone asked for advice, they got it, then it became a topic starter.....so?  How does the ensuing debate somehow minimise the value of the free advice already given?  It dont.  Problem is, rarley do the people who have asked for advice know what to listen to, or whom. 

 

 

I do agree I have misread some of JASP's posts. And I am sure I have made some assumptions but I am not sure how those assumptions were incorrect / unreasonable.

 

I will go on to another one here... For example, it has been my experience that people do not generally continue debate on a topic that has been settled. The need for debate implies that there is a disagreement or controversy that is being discussed. To me giving the OP the right answer and then following that up with a debate in the same thread is confusing. Perhaps if the debate and the instruction were kept more separate it would help. Because as you said the OP may have trouble keeping the advice separate from the rest of the debate since they do not know what the right answer is. 

 

I was trying to answer the question that Nolo originally posted about helping people learn. I think you are correct that the debates do add to the forum and make it unique, but I am not sure they always help the person who inspired that debate. I was focusing on that aspect of the topic because that is what the thread was about. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Tim, I have trouble believing you're sincere because as a resort ambassador it is your duty to understand the various ski school products available at the resort and at Epic. It is also your responsibility to represent the resort and Epicski in a positive way. Writing and posting anything that denigrates either, or could be seen as negative towards either seems in congruent with that ambassador's role. That is exactly what I meant when I posted my comments about you representing the Epicski community.

 

 

I am quite sincere in my view that in learning to ski the activity is complex enough with out making it more complex than necessary. I want just enough instruction, not too much, not too little. Often less is more. Which is why private 1 on 1 lessons have been most effective for me. I think providing this is a big challenge especially in the context of an online forum.

 

I apologize to you personally as well as the rest of the forum. I didn't intend my comments to be taken as denigrating towards epic. I think my response to you in post #62 I was misreading you and I will go back and edit my post accordingly. 

 

I think the epic instructor forum perhaps because of the nature as an open forum ends up taking a more is more approach, everyone wants to weigh in on an interesting subject. I think all to often it runs the risk of  too many cooks spoil the soup. On the internet communication of a complex idea like how do you ski efficiently is also a big challenge. So I would think that preventing people from getting overwhelmed with information or becoming confused, perhaps learning the wrong lessons, would be as much a consideration as actually providing technically correct advice.

 

I never said that people should not participate as much or as little as they want. I never said people should not discuss / debate if that is what they want to do. Rather I think that there is something missing, be that moderation, structure, or I don't know what... that would let these things coexist in a better way.

 

post #82 of 88

...

post #83 of 88

I have only been on Epic since this spring.   My head and feet can't wait to work on all the stuff I have read.   I agree with Bud H. That you will only learn it when you are on your skis.  The threads that I have read have always made a think and that is what important in any field. 

 

hank

post #84 of 88

Thanks for the clarifications Tim, Here's the thing though, every skier is an individual and what you see as too much information isn't enough for someone else. That also holds true for the coaches and instructors. So it's hard to settle on one uniform level of detail and one system's philisophic ideals. We tried to provide the type of one on one advice in the forum I mentioned (ASP) but from what I understand the lack of participation caused Epicski to drop that forum from the site. What we have left are group discussions where information is offered and often debated by a variety of folks from many different systems. Sifting through all of that certainly can be a challenge but the act of sifting through all of that stuff often helps a learner / student more than a single answer ever could. It forces them out of their comfort zone at times but isn't that when most personal growth occurs?

post #85 of 88

This is a great place to get advice and education about tuning, equipment, bootfitting, resorts, etc.

 

It is a terrible place to receive instruction.  Unless you post extensive well-shot video (and even then sometimes) it is impossible with words on a computer screen to fully diagnose what problem (if any!!!!) a skier has, so any advice is blind and useless.

 

What is worse... when people come here and ask specific questions a few users in every thread take it upon themselves to charge the user with bad technique and tell them to do meaningless things that don't even apply to them.  I think most people can see through this, but some can't.

post #86 of 88

I am going to restate my opinion on this question.  Sure there is a lot of chaff here, but the wheat is so very, very valuable that it more than makes up for the need for threshing.

 

In my case, several years ago when I was modernizing my technique I posted a video for critique.  I got back a comment that I was still pushing my tails.  My immediate reaction was a defensive "no I'm not" but I controlled myself and instead said "I'm sorry, I don't see it."

 

The response was, yes it is there.  For example, look at your video at times 0:37, 1:10.  And boom, suddenly I saw it.

 

Does that work for everyone?  Does everyone have a thick enough skin to benefit?  Of course not.  But it was huge for me.

post #87 of 88

I learned to ski well before I found EpicSki, but I have taken various snippets of advice that rang a bell with me and implemented them on the slopes. I made it a point to write a list of things to try and keep it with me on the slopes. Some of it helped a lot, some of it I could tell wasn't working, but I'd need an instructor with me to tell me how to fix it.

 

Some of the most basic information, such as how to have boots properly fitted was a huge help. My first boots were too big, and I used to wear two pairs of socks to try to keep my feet warm. Before EpicSki I thought everyone had frozen, sweaty feet at the end of the day.

 

 

post #88 of 88
Thread Starter 

This is a great quote, DD:

 

 

Quote:
Before EpicSki I thought everyone had frozen, sweaty feet at the end of the day.

icon14.gif

 

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