Does anyone know what some of the most upright (least forward lean, least ramp angle) boots out there are that aren't beginner or rental quality?
ok question back.... why?
you want a boot which is upright and minimal ramp angle is this a stance thing or a lack of ankle flexion thing, if the latter then a slightly increased ramp angle and an upright cuff may be more suitable
whatever way round it will depend a bit of foot shape and ability level....you say not beginner/rental standard....but what level above this recreational holiday skier? club racer? next olympian?
there are a good few out there and a good few to avoid
It's a stance thing, mostly experimental. I have Atomic RT CS and Raptor Supershape 110 now and I like the Atomic much better, which is more upright, and I think I'd like to go even further in that direction. So, something in that category and 90-130 flex would be ideal but I'm not racing, just a hack, so I don't need anything too extreme.
I know I can achieve this with toe lift to some extent as well but to a limited degree depending on height of the plates.
My foot is about an D/E width at the forefoot but I can manage the Head and Atomic 98mm lasts.
The easiest way to experiment with delta angle is to cut some shims from bontex insoles (3mm) and slip them between AFD and boot sole. Quick, and easily reversible.
Agree with CEM in questioning your intent whether it is an ankle range of motion issue or personal preference. Realizing that all three angles (ramp, cuff lean, delta) on the fore/aft plane need to work in concert. There is a methodology and order that seems to work pretty well and should be followed otherwise you are kinda throwing darts.
The toe lift is a 3 mm plate in the rear to protect the cant and a 7 mm in the front to net +4 (toe and heel routed to DIN of course). I actually lifted one pair of skis +7 to get it back to flat, it's a major pain finding the correct type and length of screws and also getting shims depending on the binding.
It's not an ankle range of motion thing, well, I have hypermobile ankles and a ton of dorsiflexion range, so it may be that I need lower ramp inside the boot. I am definitely throwing darts here.
I feel like my neutral position is out of balance (forward) and I'm forced to squat a little bit to get in balance. Put another way, I don't feel like I can extend fully without the feeling of falling forward. I'm not sure which of the angles it is exactly but I think the net forward lean is too high.
Your quote--- "Put another way, I don't feel like I can extend fully without the feeling of falling forward. I'm not sure
which of the angles it is exactly but I think the net forward lean is too high."
Because the net angle of your tibia is affected by your boots forward lean and your calf size,
what is the circumference of your calf at the top of you boot liner? For each inch of circumference increase above average
your knee will be pushed forward by 1/3 inch, which will cause you to sit back, wear out your quads and continually fight to
get centered---no fun.
It is possible to flair the boot cuff (shell) to accommodate a large calf, or tilt the boot back, although this is limited in how
far you can go.
Ok, if you are in the hyper range a greater "net" forward lean may be desirable but may require a flatter delta angle to bring the knees back in a more upright position. It is a good idea to first address the needs of your ankle flexion range first, then adjust your delta to plumb the knees to optimum for you. A good general rule of thumb I use is to get the knees plumbing over the boot toes when clicked in the bindings and standing cuff neutral. Then go ski and experiment with shims to dial in your preference.
Thanks for all the responses.
I'll measure and see, I know my calf is pretty large but not really low. I actually had the cuff on the Raptor cut down some and that helped a little bit, but it feels like my leg is being pushed forward lower in the shell.
Sounds like a good strategy. I really wanted to try to lower the ramp in the Raptor because it's said to be 5 degrees, although in a 25 shell it looks to be even higher than that. I suppose I could grind the bootboard but the amount I'd want to take off would start to change the fit significantly.
I may test out the Dalbello Scorpion and the Lange RS/RX since they look to have some of the lowest ramp out there.
the tendency with hyper mobile ankle flexion is that you potentially can crush any boot that you put on. because your ankle flexion has a long throw or travel, the answer may not be your starting position ( forward lean, delta, etc) it may come down to skiing in a boot that is stiff enough to artificially control your lower legs ability to drive through it.
i would not rule out any of the info that the other guys have presented, however it seems to me that you are very deeply focused on FL, ramp angle, and delta. it might be nice to have more detail on your physical attributes, so far the discussion has focused on products and it's positioning, not the human inside the stuff.
I'm 5'9 , 165 lbs, proportionally larger quads / calves than upper body and I guess a shorter torso. You're right that I can flex my ankles pretty far when standing in a boot and crush it, but when I ski I'm not pressuring the tongues a lot, more in the back seat and feeling pressure on the rear cuff and tension in the quads.
About the only thing that seems good about my current setup is I can skate very aggressively, and of course I'm forward when skating so I try to maintain that position where my feet are under me but I just feel too far forward unless its flat/gentle.
The reason I suspect an alignment issue is because I never really had this feeling with my old boots, which I honestly have no idea what they were other than some low end front-entry old Nordica's (quit for about 10 years). I never had quad burn before either. I had a friend that used to complain about it and I figured he was just whining or out of shape.
The only other possibly useful info I have is that I normally ski on a binding with just about flat delta, and I have a pair with 7mm delta which were an awful experience until I shimmed them. Also, before the toe lift the Raptor (110) was noticeably worse for me fore-aft than the RT CS and after they are about the same.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'll try shimming my flat bindings and see how that goes before I start hunting for another boot that may not help.
ok forget bindings for a moment when you are standing in your current boots ( the ones that have your quads burnin ) standing on a flat surface, if you where to drop a plumb bob from the center of your shoulder down the side of your body, where would the plumb bob bisect your boot sole?
i do not believe you understand my point about boot flex. all of the ramp, FL, and delta tricks, can be used to close up the range of motion of your ankle. the fact that you are working on bringing the boot straighter, the ramp lower, and the delta to flat or negative tells me that you damm well should be struggling to find the front of the boot and surely your quads must be burning!
get a stiffer boot, remove some of your ankle range of motion internally by raising the front of the bootboard or by lowering the heel (a little goes a long way were talking a couple of mm), then ski on a binding with average delta angle.set your boots up to find the front of the tongue, and positioned so that influence to the ski can be made within a narrow window of body mechanics.then relax and enjoy the fun of skiing.
yes, you need alignment work, however like the attorney that represents himself in court, you my friend need to find a boot fitter/ski teacher that can help you to resolve your issues. my intuition tells me your ailment is self inflicted by boot choice, boot fit, goofy angles, and flex choice.
Leave it to golden tongued Jim to do a proper summation. You've gotten lots of good and correct advice. The important thing here and what I sense you already know is to try and work with one variable at a time so I like Jim's idea of raising the zeppa toe as a way to work with ramp angle only. Many ski shops don't bother with it because it can be a bit tough on toe room depending on the person being worked with but since you are doing this yourself I'd say give it a try as you'll know right away what you are getting into.
That said depending where you live there are guys that can probably get you to a reasonable setting fairly quickly.