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How not to self arrest - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

I want to put the brakes on so that the stopping force is applied uphill, not downhill. I want the stopping forces to let my feet be downhill so I'm not leading my fall with my head.

 

Using poles to self-arrest does work. It aligns the stopping forces so that my feet lead the fall. It is a skill that needs to be practiced before needed to be most effective. I have practiced self-arrest with my poles.

 

If I were sliding downhill, head first, I would certainly consider digging in my toes or heels to slow me down, but my preferred method would be a pole self-arrest which would bring my feet below my head. If I were falling feet first, I wouldn't consider using my feet to stop unless I had not poles and knew I must stop or die or if I was only sliding slowly.

 

Head first??          So according to your logic you would only use your feet if you lost your polls and you were sliding slowly???  So if your going fast her just going to die,  got it.   
 

 

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post

pdiddy

 

It's clear you've never had instruction in self arrest.  It's one thing for you to use what works for you and another to give bad advice to folk who might put their life in danger as a result.  Using your feet might stop you, but it is very dangerous as it can easily launch you into rag dolling where you have absolutely no control or ability to self arrest.  Using a pole is one method of self arrest, but it is not the only one.  

 

Mike

 

 

Go on mike, tell us how to stop when you don't have polls and using your elbows and knees don't work,,,,,,,,  or is death your next option? 

post #33 of 52

Since I am amazed at how people are reacting I thought to myself, am I just getting lucky?  Am i giving bad advice?   So I turned to the internet and looked up Self arrest techniques to see if putting your feet down is a "no no".   What I found was http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/01/self-arrest-techniques.html     The American alpine institute says 

***There is some debate on whether you should put your feet up or not. The concern -- as the guide in the video points out -- is that if you put your feet down and your crampon points catch, that you might flip head-over-heels. On the other hand, it might stop you more quickly. We teach people to put their toes into the snow to arrest the fall.

"The Mountaineering Handbook" Author
"Craig Connally"  Paige 197 says,,,, Use your hands and Feet,,,       http://books.google.com/books?id=3hgJ0gvwIIIC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=self+arrest+methods&source=bl&ots=xMYpTOm3Ly&sig=GhSDHKQPA24x_NTMlYu1gk5fN7Q&hl=en&ei=OZQzTuGaLu_-sQKcwNCXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=self%20arrest%20methods&f=false

 

So it sounds like some believe one way and other don't, I know what works for me and could work for others,  you guys on the other hand don't know because you have never used your feet.       

post #34 of 52

Hey, pdiddy. You do know the difference between a "poll" and a pole, don't you?

post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post



 

Head first??          So according to your logic you would only use your feet if you lost your polls and you were sliding slowly???  So if your going fast her just going to die,  got it.   
 

 


Basically yes....understanding that you really are risking death if you wipe out in the these locations is important to ensure we take the proper level of care.  Suggestions that if you lose it, to not worry as you can just "self arrest" is really bogus.

 

When you wipe out in extreme terrain with speed and momentum (ie the way it would happne if you are actually skiing) you are in big trouble, there is no 2 ways about it.  If you are just picking your way down, and carrying minimal speed, such as a doing little more then a glorified side slip...sure, you will be able to self arrest, and likely a good idea before speed builds up.

 


 

 

post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post



Not bad, but I like to put my hand as low possible, right at the pole basket rather than clutching the pole higher up and holding it against my chest with my elbow. That's the way I learned it (from a Dickie Hall video).

 

Is there some reason Bob's method is better than mine?

 



 



No reason other than Bob's thread came to mind. th_dunno-1[1].gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post





There is somewhere steep enough at Keystone to have to self-arrest?? wink.gif


I didn't think so, but I found it.  Bob Barnes witnessed it and looked a lot like this.  eek.gif

 

post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post




Basically yes....understanding that you really are risking death if you wipe out in the these locations is important to ensure we take the proper level of care.  Suggestions that if you lose it, to not worry as you can just "self arrest" is really bogus.

 

When you wipe out in extreme terrain with speed and momentum (ie the way it would happne if you are actually skiing) you are in big trouble, there is no 2 ways about it.  If you are just picking your way down, and carrying minimal speed, such as a doing little more then a glorified side slip...sure, you will be able to self arrest, and likely a good idea before speed builds up.

 


 

 

When the hell did I ever say or imply that if you lose it to not worry???? I actually included a story about when I lost it and hit rocks, so I really don't now what you are talking about.  Sounds like you are trying to deflect the question I directed at you which is, "so you would slide to your death rather than dig in with your feet"???  you replied Basically yes????   wow  great advice.  lol!  Explain to me how death is a better choice than using your feet????     amazing.   Ps see post 33 and check the links, looks like i am not the only dumb ass who uses this technique.    
 

 

post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

Hey, pdiddy. You do know the difference between a "poll" and a pole, don't you?

really,,,,,,     yawn
 

 

post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post



When the hell did I ever say or imply that if you lose it to not worry???? I actually included a story about when I lost it and hit rocks, so I really don't now what you are talking about.  Sounds like you are trying to deflect the question I directed at you which is, "so you would slide to your death rather than dig in with your feet"???  you replied Basically yes????   wow  great advice.  lol!  Explain to me how death is a better choice than using your feet????     amazing.   Ps see post 33 and check the links, looks like i am not the only dumb ass who uses this technique.    
 

 



Actually you are. 

 

Obvioulsy you never read your own links.  Rule #1 from American Alpine Institute.  "The best way to self arrest is to avoid falling".   Just what we have been telling you.  Further they are refering to climbing, ie where you have no momentum or speed, just lose a foot hold.  Sure, dig in, buy all means.

 

 

In your second link....Mountaineering Handbook Page 206, a whole section dedicated to "Feasbillty"".  It writes "Self Arrest is feasible on slopes where the grade and snow hardness are moderate".   Sure Ill buy that...but it wont work on extreme terrain.  Again as everyone here is telling you.

 

To answer you question.  If I ever did find myself in a situation where I was careening down the hill from a fall....my first goal would be to regain control...not stop, just be in control, such that I am feet first, on my back.  From here I will do my best by rolling/leaning/draging an arm to try and steer around the rocks/cliffs or what have you.  This will give me the greatest chance of survival, much higher then trying to dig my heels or toes in and sedning myself into a head over heels tumbling scenario.

 

post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Head first??          So according to your logic you would only use your feet if you lost your polls and you were sliding slowly???  So if your going fast her just going to die,  got it.   
 

 



Not exactly:

 

 

Quote:

 If I were falling feet first, I wouldn't consider using my feet to stop unless I had not poles and knew I must stop or die or if I was only sliding slowly.

 

 

post #41 of 52

To underline the challenge of self-arrest in a steep, tough situation: one of the world's top pro skiers slid to his death in 2010. wasn't carrying speed when he fell either. came around a ridge where the aspect changed and the snow turned to ice without advance warning. I doubt that anything could have worked. we all fear the sliding fall.

post #42 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

So it sounds like some believe one way and other don't, I know what works for me and could work for others,  you guys on the other hand don't know because you have never used your feet.       

Heh.  See below.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

When the hell did I ever say or imply that if you lose it to not worry???? I actually included a story about when I lost it and hit rocks, 

Okay, you've hit rocks^ and you earlier mentioned that you've taken a few tumbles while relying on the foot-braking method.  I'll admit I've never tried using just my feet to self-arrest on steep snow, but I have to say that the experiences you've relayed aren't encouraging me to try.  

post #43 of 52

Self arrest if possible but, positioning yourself and waiting below a tumbling snowmobile (in order to "save" the snowmobile ?) is just plain dumb. The real irony would have been to survive the fall but be killed by being hit by your own snow machine.

post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post





Actually you are. 

 

Obvioulsy you never read your own links.  Rule #1 from American Alpine Institute.  "The best way to self arrest is to avoid falling".   Just what we have been telling you.  Further they are refering to climbing, ie where you have no momentum or speed, just lose a foot hold.  Sure, dig in, buy all means.

 

 

In your second link....Mountaineering Handbook Page 206, a whole section dedicated to "Feasbillty"".  It writes "Self Arrest is feasible on slopes where the grade and snow hardness are moderate".   Sure Ill buy that...but it wont work on extreme terrain.  Again as everyone here is telling you.

 

To answer you question.  If I ever did find myself in a situation where I was careening down the hill from a fall....my first goal would be to regain control...not stop, just be in control, such that I am feet first, on my back.  From here I will do my best by rolling/leaning/draging an arm to try and steer around the rocks/cliffs or what have you.  This will give me the greatest chance of survival, much higher then trying to dig my heels or toes in and sedning myself into a head over heels tumbling scenario.

 

OMG really???  is that it,  Hey everyone best way to self arrest is not to fall!   DUH.

You haven't told me anything except that you HAVE NEVER even self arrested, LOL!    HEY EVERYONE, according to SKI DUDE, the best way to self arrest is to go FEET FIRST ON YOU BACK,    WOW,       

 


Edited by pdiddy - 7/30/11 at 11:45am
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

 

Heh.  See below.

 

Okay, you've hit rocks^ and you earlier mentioned that you've taken a few tumbles while relying on the foot-braking method.  I'll admit I've never tried using just my feet to self-arrest on steep snow, but I have to say that the experiences you've relayed aren't encouraging me to try.  


Things happen out there Bob, you know that.   You get up there and pick a different line then planned because of snow conditions, or a spring storm is moving in and you have to bail out early so you don't get struck by lightning and end up skiing whatever,,   Or you boulder down to a run only to find out it's solid ice, but you ski it anyways because you don't want to hike out, thats me.  :)    I have done some retarded things in the BC I admit that,  but I can tell you that its not an automatic eject button to dig in your toes with ski boots on and it does work.  

post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post

Self arrest if possible but, positioning yourself and waiting below a tumbling snowmobile (in order to "save" the snowmobile ?) is just plain dumb. The real irony would have been to survive the fall but be killed by being hit by your own snow machine.


I agree with that, as first I thought the guy was a dumb ass, but he did get out in front of that snow machine a ways.  

 

post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post





Not exactly:

 

 

 

 

 

Well okay, that's kind of what I'm talking about, so we actually somewhat agree.   Ever go up to St Marys in the summer? 

 


Edited by pdiddy - 7/30/11 at 12:05pm
post #48 of 52

Can we just go back to making fun of the dumb ass who stood below his snow mobile as it was tumbling towards him?wink.gif

post #49 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Well okay, that's kind of what I'm talking about, so we actually somewhat agree.   Ever go up to St Marys in the summer? 

 


Feet would be my last resort, but I'd try anything to stop if I'd exhausted all other options.

 

Never been to St Marys. I hear (and see in photos) that it has poor snow.
 

 

post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 


Feet would be my last resort, but I'd try anything to stop if I'd exhausted all other options.

 

Never been to St Marys. I hear (and see in photos) that it has poor snow.
 

 

It's mainly ice in the summer with a little slush on top and when it gets real hot its gets ruts all over it, almost like a really bad bump run.     Anyways, perfect area to work on self arrest, just stay off the steep part of the cornice.  Also, from the top you can walk straight over the James peak, super easy hike and easy summit from st marys.  
 

 

post #51 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

Can we just go back to making fun of the dumb ass who stood below his snow mobile as it was tumbling towards him?wink.gif



I like how he was trying to stop it at the end after it already rolled a thousand times.  

post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

Can we just go back to making fun of the dumb ass who stood below his snow mobile as it was tumbling towards him?wink.gif



I'm still trying to figure that one out.

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