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How not to self arrest

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
http://www.snotr.com/video/7386/Mountain_Run

The guy is on a snow mobile, but provides a very good object lesson on how not to self arrest. He was very fortunate to have not killed himself.
post #2 of 52

Jeez, why did the guy try to hotshot up the side of the chute at the top?

 

This was scary, but I laughed out loud at the sight of the toppling snowmobile for some reason.

post #3 of 52

"Missed it by that much"

post #4 of 52

Will the warranty cover that?

post #5 of 52

Well you don't want to stop yourself when there's an out of control 800 pound sled following you.  It was laughable the trouble they went to trying to stop it after it was totaled.  I was hoping it would burst in to flames at the very end.  Hilarious!

post #6 of 52

Awesome, but he must have been wearing a teflon snow suit?!?

post #7 of 52

Good share. 

 

Yeah, definitely good thing they risked life and limb and stopped the sled when they did....after rolling 19,000times, those last 4 rolls before it hit the bottom would have been disastorous!

post #8 of 52

   I would think that would be one of the things you would just know at that level.  seriously looked like he just gave up half way down.   

post #9 of 52

It's staggering how many snowmobilers get killed around here every year pulling that kind of stunt.  That guy was extremely lucky.

post #10 of 52

Guy seemed pretty good if not bright, but that exit at the top was way sketch. What was his self arrest method? sit on his butt and dig in his heels? should a person have an instrument like a rt angle shovel or ice axe in a holster? skiers have their poles, and I like those ice axe attachments for the grips if you know you're in the no fall zone. like crampons, you have to watch the sharp end I guess.

post #11 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

Guy seemed pretty good if not bright, but that exit at the top was way sketch. What was his self arrest method? sit on his butt and dig in his heels? should a person have an instrument like a rt angle shovel or ice axe in a holster? skiers have their poles, and I like those ice axe attachments for the grips if you know you're in the no fall zone. like crampons, you have to watch the sharp end I guess.

Lay on your stomach going feet first and put all your weight on your feet or knees(I use my feet because I am usually in ski boots) and hands, or elbows (depends on the instant and you will try both)_, if that does nothing then I kick in several times, remember you are just trying to stop.  Sometimes kicking in will work better than you expect and could injure your ankle or roll you, but in a life and death situation I am just trying to stop.  I am sure numerous people will say, never kick in, but again if you are hauling ass down a slope towards a band of rocks and you are not slowing down, and you may die,  you KICK IN and keep kicking in.  I did develop a technique when your foot does catch on a kick in so hard that you knee hits your chest, but if I share that the nay sayers will just pick me apart.    I have skied in the BC for over 15 years and have self arrested several times (I can think of several close calls just off the top of my head)  using this method (did hit a band of rocks once pretty hard so sometimes nothing works).    I Walked away with a $hit load of cuts, scrapes and bruises on my shin, knee, fore arms,  I will say that the self arrest used did slow me down enough so that I walked away, but I also got lucky with the spot (super big rocks everywhere except where I hit).   

 I was skiing so my ski boot saved both my ankles for sure (and no I did not have even 2 seconds to try and use my ski polls which in my opinion don't work that great anyways).  .    

That being said there is a technique that I have used several times to rid my self of my skis while sliding out of control.  Yes if I am hauling ass down an ice covered slope with no chance of recovering on my ski's and they haven't released yet I rid them so I can self arrest, but with todays fatter skis they will probably just blow off anyways...     I'll share that if anyone is interested, but again with todays fatter skis probably won't come in as handy.  One could also say that if I were a better skier this would never happen, that is not realistic, even the pros fall and if you are hitting a 50 degree ice covered run you better know what to do.    

  
 

 

post #12 of 52

eek.gif  Dude instead of dishing out advice, you should be taking lessons. 

 

Top athletes dont work out how to recover from high speed ass over tea kettle falls in extreme terrain, they work out how not get there in the first place.  It would be like F1 drivers comparing tips on how to survive T-boning into the concrete wall.....they dont do that, they work on not hitting it in the first place. 

 

You are a Darwin Award winner in the making.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post



Lay on your stomach going feet first and put all your weight on your feet or knees(I use my feet because I am usually in ski boots) and hands, or elbows (depends on the instant and you will try both)_, if that does nothing then I kick in several times, remember you are just trying to stop.  Sometimes kicking in will work better than you expect and could injure your ankle or roll you, but in a life and death situation I am just trying to stop.  I am sure numerous people will say, never kick in, but again if you are hauling ass down a slope towards a band of rocks and you are not slowing down, and you may die,  you KICK IN and keep kicking in.  I did develop a technique when your foot does catch on a kick in so hard that you knee hits your chest, but if I share that the nay sayers will just pick me apart.    I have skied in the BC for over 15 years and have self arrested several times (I can think of several close calls just off the top of my head)  using this method (did hit a band of rocks once pretty hard so sometimes nothing works).    I Walked away with a $hit load of cuts, scrapes and bruises on my shin, knee, fore arms,  I will say that the self arrest used did slow me down enough so that I walked away, but I also got lucky with the spot (super big rocks everywhere except where I hit).   

 I was skiing so my ski boot saved both my ankles for sure (and no I did not have even 2 seconds to try and use my ski polls which in my opinion don't work that great anyways).  .    

That being said there is a technique that I have used several times to rid my self of my skis while sliding out of control.  Yes if I am hauling ass down an ice covered slope with no chance of recovering on my ski's and they haven't released yet I rid them so I can self arrest, but with todays fatter skis they will probably just blow off anyways...     I'll share that if anyone is interested, but again with todays fatter skis probably won't come in as handy.  One could also say that if I were a better skier this would never happen, that is not realistic, even the pros fall and if you are hitting a 50 degree ice covered run you better know what to do.    

  
 

 



 

post #13 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

eek.gif  Dude instead of dishing out advice, you should be taking lessons. 

 

Top athletes dont work out how to recover from high speed ass over tea kettle falls in extreme terrain, they work out how not get there in the first place.  It would be like F1 drivers comparing tips on how to survive T-boning into the concrete wall.....they dont do that, they work on not hitting it in the first place. 

 

You are a Darwin Award winner in the making.

 



 


Normally I disagree with you Skidude, but this time I had to roflmao.gif
post #14 of 52

From what I gather you should never drop your skis. It's a much larger platform and edge with which to self arrest.

 

 

post #15 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

eek.gif  Dude instead of dishing out advice, you should be taking lessons. 

 

Top athletes dont work out how to recover from high speed ass over tea kettle falls in extreme terrain, they work out how not get there in the first place.  It would be like F1 drivers comparing tips on how to survive T-boning into the concrete wall.....they dont do that, they work on not hitting it in the first place. 

 

You are a Darwin Award winner in the making.

 



 

Even the pros fall and recover in extreme terrain.  No falls no balls my friend.  
 

 

post #16 of 52

Having attended some hill climbs over the years, I've witnessed some interesting "failed attempts" but this one seems especially butt puckering!  eek.gif

 

post #17 of 52

Pdiddy, I agree with your getting on your stomach, but not with trying to use your feet at all.  You are more likely to start rag dolling, which is more likely to result in injury and from which it is much harder to get to a point where you can self arrest.  Instead, use your elbows and knees to dig in.

 

Sometimes you can get lucky with your feet (I have), but it's a bad strategy.

 

Mike

post #18 of 52

Sadly, I have some experience with this. I went of a band of rocks inadvertently eek.gif a couple of seasons ago. (luckily there was sort of a gully in the rock band that i slid down, so I didn't whack anything too badly on the rocks) It was a pretty steep run (after the rocks) and i picked up a lot of speed. While the world went into slow motion, I remembered all those wonderful things I'd read about how to "self arrest". Naturally, i was heading upside down and backwards and could tell I was going fast. So I did what I was supposed to and got myself on my stomach and head facing uphill and then put my toes in. I didn't even "kick" in and then, BOINK, I was upside down and backwards and the world was spinning (rag dolling) and i tried again and at least got my head heading uphill but was on my back and tried to put my heels in. no luck. on my stomach again, I had one pole still on and I really tried to grab it to put the tip in the snow, but it was totally hopeless. If this seems like a long time passing, it seemed like eternity to me and I was seriously thinking I was going to meet my eternity. (My husband is going to KILL me ran through my head a few times)

 

In the end, the ONLY thing that stopped me was the slope mellowing and some softer, deeper snow which slowed me down enough so I could stop.

 

Get real, people don't die from a fall only because they didn't do the "right thing". Sometimes, you are out of control and that's that. I got lucky. This guy got lucky. (although he was surely stretching it by starting the second slide on purpose and getting below the 'bile TWICE!!)

 

I have seriously thought about what you could do to have some sort of device on your jacket sleeve  or pole handle(short of an ice pick which is likely to kill you in any other simpler fall). It's just not feasible to get your pole tip into the snow when you are sliding. I also now avoid slick material in my pants and jackets.

post #19 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

Lay on your stomach going feet first and put all your weight on your feet or knees(I use my feet because I am usually in ski boots) and hands, or elbows (depends on the instant and you will try both)_, if that does nothing then I kick in several times,...

 

Using feet=not a good idea, unless you are trying to launch yourself ass-over-teakettle.

 

Try this:

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/self-arrest-techniques

post #20 of 52

I just couldnt believe he didn't make a sound on the way down. No Oh crap, no ****, no ohh man.

post #21 of 52

Check this one out.....how not to put your skis on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QliBL-AQiAY&feature=related

post #22 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

 

 

Using feet=not a good idea, unless you are trying to launch yourself ass-over-teakettle.

 

Try this:

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/self-arrest-techniques


This is one of my favorite articles on EpicSki.  I recall reading the original thread by Bob and thinking......"I wonder if I'd have my wits about me to do that if I needed to"

Then, one day at Keystone, Bob Barnes witnessed  my "wits" in action.  Glad I'd read this and had the ability to do it when it was necessary.

 

 

post #23 of 52

Is it just me, or did he seem to not exactly be trying to avoid that sled? Even when he was stopped, he just stayed there and watched it come tumbling down toward him. Maybe he was hurt, but he got up later. I would be getting my ass out of there asap. Of course, I would never be there in the first place, so I guess it's all ... moot ... 

post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post




This is one of my favorite articles on EpicSki.  I recall reading the original thread by Bob and thinking......"I wonder if I'd have my wits about me to do that if I needed to"

Then, one day at Keystone, Bob Barnes witnessed  my "wits" in action.  Glad I'd read this and had the ability to do it when it was necessary.

 

 



There is somewhere steep enough at Keystone to have to self-arrest?? wink.gif

post #25 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lee View Post

 

 

Using feet=not a good idea, unless you are trying to launch yourself ass-over-teakettle.

 

Try this:

http://www.epicski.com/wiki/self-arrest-techniques

   According to your advice everyone should try poll arrest (if you still have them)  or stay on elbows and knees and if that doesn't work then slide to your death?    
I have used my feet a number of times and I keep my center of gravity very low by keeping my knees barely touching ( off and on) at the same time.  Sure I have been rolled a few times but just go back to the same position.     Works for me bro,  I was also a gymnast so maybe some things are easier for me then for other people (like balance and roll recovery)?.  You have plenty of BC experience yourself, but perhaps we ski different things.     Regardless I suggest if anyone is going to ski steeps in the BC then they should actually practice several types of self arrest it could save your ass.       

 

post #26 of 52

pdiddy

 

It's clear you've never had instruction in self arrest.  It's one thing for you to use what works for you and another to give bad advice to folk who might put their life in danger as a result.  Using your feet might stop you, but it is very dangerous as it can easily launch you into rag dolling where you have absolutely no control or ability to self arrest.  Using a pole is one method of self arrest, but it is not the only one.  

 

Mike

post #27 of 52

I want to put the brakes on so that the stopping force is applied uphill, not downhill. I want the stopping forces to let my feet be downhill so I'm not leading my fall with my head.

 

Using poles to self-arrest does work. It aligns the stopping forces so that my feet lead the fall. It is a skill that needs to be practiced before needed to be most effective. I have practiced self-arrest with my poles.

 

If I were sliding downhill, head first, I would certainly consider digging in my toes or heels to slow me down, but my preferred method would be a pole self-arrest which would bring my feet below my head. If I were falling feet first, I wouldn't consider using my feet to stop unless I had not poles and knew I must stop or die or if I was only sliding slowly.

post #28 of 52

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post

   According to your advice everyone should try poll arrest (if you still have them)  or stay on elbows and knees and if that doesn't work then slide to your death?    
I have used my feet a number of times and I keep my center of gravity very low by keeping my knees barely touching ( off and on) at the same time.  Sure I have been rolled a few times but just go back to the same position.     Works for me bro,  I was also a gymnast so maybe some things are easier for me then for other people (like balance and roll recovery)?.  You have plenty of BC experience yourself, but perhaps we ski different things.     Regardless I suggest if anyone is going to ski steeps in the BC then they should actually practice several types of self arrest it could save your ass.       

 

Well, executed correctly the pole arrest works, so the slide to your death part doesn't happen.  But I love your observation about getting rolled a few times.  I'm going to guess that you got lucky and didn't land on rocks when you came back to earth - good on ya.  We might ski different things since some times getting rolled would send me into the rocks.  

 

The gymnast thing is cool, I guess every steeps skier should have that skill in their bag o' tricks - it would probably make people more comfortable with finding themselves tumbling in midair when they were trying to slow down.  BTW I didn't mean to say don't use your feet at all, just that if you only use your feet you're likely to launch, which I guess your experience bears out.  
 

But as long as that feet thing is working for you and getting rolled a few times doesn't jam you up, then beercheer.gif

 

Good point about practicing.  

post #29 of 52

AFAIK unless things have changed in recent years, one of the first things you will learn about self arrest or glissading in any mountaineering school is to NOT dig your feet in.  It is a sure fire way to break an ankle, blow a knee or go into an uncontrollable tumble.

 

As for the ski pole arrest, I guess it is worth a try but I wouldn't count on it stopping you.  Like MR says, it may help keep your feet below you though.

 

When I was 19 yo (a long time ago) I went for a 1000' slide on Mt. Shasta.  I was climbing in ski boots, no crampons, no ice ax, I'm not even sure I knew what they were.  It was early morning frozen Spring snow & very firm.  My first instinct was to arrest with my ski pole.  As soon as I stuck the tip in, it flew about 30' in the air.  My slide was so long, I was able to have a repeat performance with my other pole.  Luckily for me, my slide was into a large open bowl above treeline with no obstacles below.  The only thing that saved me from severe friction burns was the fact that my skis were in an A-frame on my pack which kept most of my body off the ice.  I ended up with a nice abrasion on my hip & huge blisters on the tips of my fingers through my thick gloves (after the pole arrest failed, I tried digging my fingers in).  It was one of the hardest lessons (& closest calls) I ever learned!  I went home & read a book called "Freedom of the Hills" bought stiff soled hiking boots, crampons & an ice ax.  I then enrolled in a mountaineering school & returned to summit & ski from the peak the following season.

 

Skiing below the Red Banks on my first Shasta summit. circa late 1970's

scan0021.jpg

 

Thanks,

JF


Edited by 4ster - 7/29/11 at 7:19pm
post #30 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post




This is one of my favorite articles on EpicSki.  I recall reading the original thread by Bob and thinking......"I wonder if I'd have my wits about me to do that if I needed to"

Then, one day at Keystone, Bob Barnes witnessed  my "wits" in action.  Glad I'd read this and had the ability to do it when it was necessary.

 

 

Not bad, but I like to put my hand as low possible, right at the pole basket rather than clutching the pole higher up and holding it against my chest with my elbow. That's the way I learned it (from a Dickie Hall video).

 

Is there some reason Bob's method is better than mine?

 

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