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FIS lengths revision for 12-13 World Cup season - Page 7

post #181 of 224

True story...but this is exactly what can happen, IMHO.  I'm Audi, I have a budget for sports sponsorship, and I expect results.  Why should I continue to pump dollars into this sorry travesty called WC ski racing when I can make a lot more hay sponsoring tennis events, for example?

 

frown.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richr View Post




This is a great start, but it wont get anywhere with FIS until the following names are on the list

 

Audi

Milka

Longines

Raiffaisen Bank

...

 

 

 



 

post #182 of 224

Have any of the ladies commented?  They are going to be on 30 M skis.

 

 

27M for men already sucks actually, as many gates still require stivot turns.  They should just remove all the regulations and let pros pick what they race on.

 

 

As far as ski racing being dead?  Well, it was never big here.  For a while NBC televised some WC races back in 06 or something when Bode was hot, but they've since dumped that and shown some ski-cross and stuff.  If they are not televising skiing, most of the American public doesn't know/care anyway.

post #183 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

Have any of the ladies commented?  They are going to be on 30 M skis.

 

 


71 ladies have signed the petition - http://ski.freesponsible.info/signing-athletes/
post #184 of 224

lumping europe together and saying that ski racing is healthy there is misleading. break europe up into the individual countries and you will find that they all have very different approaches to ski racing and the business of ski racing.

 

skiing as a televised sport is beginning to die in some of the alpine countries. france for example has cut back on the availability of televised ski racing. the same is true in italy, norway, sweden, and germany.

 

secondly, the cost and unpredictability of weather have a huge impact for ski racing tv production. the FIS has played an important role in the packaging of a usable live or taped feed that can be purchased at semi reasonable rates. that being said the trends in tv costs and production do not lean favorably on ski racing. if you were a multinational corporation looking for some bang for your buck, you would probably pick a sport that had a larger base following of participation, and an inexpensive way to set-up and produce the show. take tennis for example, high consumer participation and all you need are a handful of fixed cameras, an on site command trailer, some colorful, athletic, good looking athletes. you can reach 100 million viewers with your message. so let's say i am marketing hair products. where would you roll the dice skiing or tennis?

 

my point in bringing this all up is that pitting the world against the FIS is not solution. if the athletes push too hard we all lose, if the suppliers push too hard we all lose, if the federations push too hard we all lose. as i stated earlier we have a sick and broken system, however ski racing is in a very fragile position worldwide. it is going to take some very smart businessmen and politicians to calmly steer the ship onto a better course.

 

for the record, i agree with what i have seen written from the american athletes about 40 meter skis. for purely selfish reasons, i do not want to see the fun sucked out of a brilliantly carved turn. at the same time, i want to see clear heads prevail in resolving the look and feel of the sport so that no individual athlete, family, or team get's left behind.

 

jim

post #185 of 224

Yeah, ski racing is a tough, tough sell for TV. Lots of weather-related cancellations and delays, races start early in the day (as early as 9:30 am), sometimes on weekdays, then there are two runs for SL and GS -- viewers have to go away AND come back.

Add the fact that the "ski season" for a lot of people is basically Christmas-time; winter sports for spectators are a tough sell when it's warm in the city.

Then throw in the general dearth of exciting, marketable personalities; people from the Alps, which is still where most successful World Cup skiers come from, tend to be quiet, introspective farm kid types, not exactly quote machines, and usually monolingual. Ouch.

Yeesh, it's a wonder anyone watches. I do, of course, but I'm a nutcase.

As far as the gear goes, I side with those who say let the racers choose. Having said that, I've heard a lot over the years about this or that innovation killing the sport (hinged gates, for example). I haven't seen it. If you love it, you'll watch.

post #186 of 224

All true, Jim, but let's get back to ground zero.  Apart from what changing GS sidecuts might or might not do to the event itself, apart from the overall woes of the WC and ski racing generally, the FIS came up with the equipment changes to make the sport safer. I still haven't seen any evidence to support that contention, and somewhere in this thread I think there's a reference to David Dodge believing that more sidecut might actually be safer for GS.  Given what we've all seen from the video of Warner Nickerson, I'd say it's a real stretch to claim that a 40 (or even 35) meter sidecut ski is going to make GS safer. 

 

I think if the FIS and all interested parties can look rationally at the whole issue of racer safety generally and of equipment reqs. specifically in terms of their impact on safety, then I think WC ski racing...and to a certain extent, all of ski racing...has a chance to continue to limp along, despite all the evidence that it is, in many ways, a failing sport as you and others have pointed out.  However, as I have said, I don't think that the FIS is likely to back down from its current position one iota, even though you've got a huge percentage of the men's and women's fields signing petitions against the proposed regs.  I think it's going to continue to be a game of chicken between the athletes, equipment suppliers and the FIS. Accordingly, I also think there's going to be a real sea change coming for the 2012-2013 race season. Somebody envisioned the men's field showing up at Solden 2012 on 27 meter skis...what's the FIS going to do then? I'm betting that something like that happens. The FIS and the WC may be the only games in town right now, but it doesn't have to stay that way.  I'll go watch not just Bode, Ted, Carlo Janka, and the other stars, but the whole field go ski race on equipment that works for them on whatever circuit comes up as an alternative to the WC...and I do think that's going to happen.  The FIS may own WC, the FIS does not own ski racing...

 

 

frown.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post

lumping europe together and saying that ski racing is healthy there is misleading. break europe up into the individual countries and you will find that they all have very different approaches to ski racing and the business of ski racing.

 

skiing as a televised sport is beginning to die in some of the alpine countries. france for example has cut back on the availability of televised ski racing. the same is true in italy, norway, sweden, and germany.

 

secondly, the cost and unpredictability of weather have a huge impact for ski racing tv production. the FIS has played an important role in the packaging of a usable live or taped feed that can be purchased at semi reasonable rates. that being said the trends in tv costs and production do not lean favorably on ski racing. if you were a multinational corporation looking for some bang for your buck, you would probably pick a sport that had a larger base following of participation, and an inexpensive way to set-up and produce the show. take tennis for example, high consumer participation and all you need are a handful of fixed cameras, an on site command trailer, some colorful, athletic, good looking athletes. you can reach 100 million viewers with your message. so let's say i am marketing hair products. where would you roll the dice skiing or tennis?

 

my point in bringing this all up is that pitting the world against the FIS is not solution. if the athletes push too hard we all lose, if the suppliers push too hard we all lose, if the federations push too hard we all lose. as i stated earlier we have a sick and broken system, however ski racing is in a very fragile position worldwide. it is going to take some very smart businessmen and politicians to calmly steer the ship onto a better course.

 

for the record, i agree with what i have seen written from the american athletes about 40 meter skis. for purely selfish reasons, i do not want to see the fun sucked out of a brilliantly carved turn. at the same time, i want to see clear heads prevail in resolving the look and feel of the sport so that no individual athlete, family, or team get's left behind.

 

jim



 

post #187 of 224
A lot of talk has been at the WC level, but since bulk of "FIS" races include so much more i.e Noram, GMC Cup etc, what about the 16 year old racers in local or regional FIS races. How does this change affect them. Is there the same issue as Europa/Noram/WC? Granted you want the progression from one tier to the next, but it isn't inconceivable to have different rules at the highest levels of a sport.
post #188 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity View Post

A lot of talk has been at the WC level, but since bulk of "FIS" races include so much more i.e Noram, GMC Cup etc, what about the 16 year old racers in local or regional FIS races. How does this change affect them. Is there the same issue as Europa/Noram/WC? Granted you want the progression from one tier to the next, but it isn't inconceivable to have different rules at the highest levels of a sport.


This is an excellent point that is not getting enough attention. There are really three issues here

 

1) What is the appropriate set of rules for the elite level (WC/Europa/Noram)?

2) What is the appropriate set of rules for lower levels, including entry FIS races?

3) How do you accomplish 1 and 2 above and still make it possible to transition between them?

 

I'm sure the WC racers can figure out how to get down courses on anything. But what about the 16 year old kid who hasnt matured enough to developed leg strength yet?  How would putting him or her on long straight skis help develop good technique that will lead them to the next level?

 

post #189 of 224

Yep, very true.  In other words, if it doesn't make sense for WC, it really doesn't make sense for the levels below that...got that, FIS?
 

frown.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richr View Post




This is an excellent point that is not getting enough attention. There are really three issues here

 

1) What is the appropriate set of rules for the elite level (WC/Europa/Noram)?

2) What is the appropriate set of rules for lower levels, including entry FIS races?

3) How do you accomplish 1 and 2 above and still make it possible to transition between them?

 

I'm sure the WC racers can figure out how to get down courses on anything. But what about the 16 year old kid who hasnt matured enough to developed leg strength yet?  How would putting him or her on long straight skis help develop good technique that will lead them to the next level?

 



 

post #190 of 224

'my point in bringing this all up is that pitting the world against the FIS is not solution. if the athletes push too hard we all lose, if the suppliers push too hard we all lose, if the federations push too hard we all lose. as i stated earlier we have a sick and broken system, however ski racing is in a very fragile position worldwide. it is going to take some very smart businessmen and politicians to calmly steer the ship onto a better course.'

 

Jim- I couldn't help but agree with the majority of your thoughts here.  Your quote above is accurate, but I believe it leaves one part out.  The FIS is pushing too hard, and not taking into consideration their own athletes.  The FIS needs to consider the input of those who fund their organization.  I've paid my FIS dues over the years.  Shouldn't the athletes and coaches have a say, too?  I wouldn't advocate for a wholesale boycott or lockout, but there needs to be better communication.  What the FIS is doing now is no different than if the athletes announced that they would be back on 21 meter skis as of 2013 as they have reviewed Dodge's database and decided from that information that deeper sidecuts were safer.  Communication goes a long way.

 

I'm also very skeptical about research that isn't fit to be published or shared.  Why not contribute to the body of knowledge?  There is a school of thought that to perform quality research, and not publish is is a form of academic dishonesty.  

 

 

post #191 of 224

What I see happening is that many small-hill clubs will move over to exclusively training SL at the lower levels of the sport. GS/SG/DH will be lumped together as more specialist "speed events" and only a minority of kids will ever make the step up to those events.

 

Another thought. For quite a while certain forces have wanted to chop SG. Once these changes have been implemented there will (if I have understood everything right) be SL on 165 (no sidecut restriction, but typical is 12), GS on 195/35, SG on 210/45 and DH on 218/50. SG looks pretty tightly squeezed to me.....maybe that's partly what this is about?

post #192 of 224

Can't disagree with your thought process, but I think the way this is going to play out is that we are all, in fact, going to lose.  Here's why:

 

- The FIS decides to mandate 40 meter sidecuts for GS, compromises on 35 meters.  I don't see any improvement.  Why did the FIS make this decision?  Allegedy for safety reasons.  However...see Ted's thoughts on the issue on Ski Racing's website. As he points out, since 27 meter sidecuts have been enacted, there have been only 3 major injuries in WC GS, and it's hard to make a case that any of those was due to the ski's sidecut.  "Okay," we all say.  "Another FIS rule, there have been tons of them, maybe we'll all get through it." Wrong again.  If you think otherwise, go look at the footage of Warner Nickerson on a pair of 40 meter sidecut GS skis. 

 

So why, really, did the FIS come up with this ruling? Easy...they need to protect their phony baloney jobs. What does the FIS do, anyway? Lemme think...they keep up the FIS points lists! Uh huh...an orangutan could do that...what else? Um...they organize the WC schedule! A chimpanzee could do that.  Lemme see...Beaver Creek, Val D'Isere, coming up soon is the Lauberhorn and Hahnenkamm, been that way since God was in short pants, courses are all homologated...even though the racers go under a tunnel in the Lauberhorn and get up to 98 mph in the middle...how's that for safety, FIS? So the only way the FIS can justify doing whatever it is they are supposed to be doing is by incessantly micromanaging the course and equipment rules. 

 

So please, let's stop pretending that 35 meter sidecut radiuses make any sense, or that the FIS had any kind of reasonable rationale for coming up with this mandate.  The real question is...what happens next?  To me, here's the most likely scenario:

 

- The athletes are petitioning against it, the equipment manufacturers are protesting it...but so far, to my knowledge, sponsors like Audi and Milka aren't saying much.  I think they'll wait to see how 2012-2013 goes, then act accordingly.  That's a real critical time for everyone involved with ski racing, because guess what happens in Feburary 2014?  That's right, the Winter Olympics, first time ever in Sochi, Russia.  The Olympics are about the only time that ski racing gets a wide TV viewership, and the sponsorship/ad money that entails. Especially since ski racing is now competing with skier cross, boarder cross, half pipe, aerials, and all of that lame happy jive, I think all you need is for Men's GS to show up as joke event at the Olympics, and you'll see the effective end of high level ski racing as we know it. 

 

Do I think this is the way it will play out.  Absolutely.  The FIS isn't going to back down.  The national organizations aren't saying a word, as usual.  The 2011-2012 season is about to start, and the new regs do not apply...so everybody will forget about this issue until about May of next year.  Then, more on snow testing, more horrible results...more racer protests...no change from the FIS.  You'll know how things are going to pan out at Solden 2013 where one of several things will happen:

 

- The racers will knuckle under to the FIS, attempt to ski on 35-meter sidecut skis...the race will be a joke, and ski racing will start washing down the drain.  That's the most likely outcome, in my estimation.

 

- The racers will show up with 27 meter sidecut skis and face down the FIS.  Most unlikely possibility in my estimation?  Why?  Because the national organizations, especially the USSA, just bend over, grab their ankles, and say "Yes, boss" to whatever the FIS dictates.  Here, let me put a microphone in front of Bill Marolt..."Bill, what do you think of the new FIS equipment regulations?"  "Well, they're the FIS, and they make the rules, so if you want to represent the US, you'll ski on 35 meter sidecut GS skis." 

 

- Racers will say "To hell with this," and go do something else, whether it's racing on a separate circuit or skier cross or doing TV commentary.  Some "racers" show up at Soelden, and some guy with 60 FIS points wins the race.  This is possibility #2, in my mind. 

 

Notice that I don't include, as a possibility, "Everyone kisses and makes up, the racers show up at Soelden on 35 meter sidecut skis, and a fine time is had by all."  I don't think any of us is naive enough to fall for that one. 

 

So if I'm right, and Bad Things are in store for WC racing...what does that mean for the rest of us?  Masters racers, college racers, juniors, and so forth.  Well, Bad Things in my estimation. Somebody mentioned all of us just training and racing SL, because the FIS isn't going to change that.  Are you sure?  That's today's news, I wouldn't bet you a box of donuts that that's the way it'll turn out in the future.  So, no, I don't see good things happening, and I also don't see that all of the interested parties in ski racing ought to attempt to "work" with this FIS any further.  The FIS has abdicated its responsibility, pure and simple.  My belief is that this issue is going to cost us ski racing...as we know it...in the short term.  But in the near to long term, something better is going to arise out of the ashes...

 

frown.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NE Racer View Post

'my point in bringing this all up is that pitting the world against the FIS is not solution. if the athletes push too hard we all lose, if the suppliers push too hard we all lose, if the federations push too hard we all lose. as i stated earlier we have a sick and broken system, however ski racing is in a very fragile position worldwide. it is going to take some very smart businessmen and politicians to calmly steer the ship onto a better course.'

 

Jim- I couldn't help but agree with the majority of your thoughts here.  Your quote above is accurate, but I believe it leaves one part out.  The FIS is pushing too hard, and not taking into consideration their own athletes.  The FIS needs to consider the input of those who fund their organization.  I've paid my FIS dues over the years.  Shouldn't the athletes and coaches have a say, too?  I wouldn't advocate for a wholesale boycott or lockout, but there needs to be better communication.  What the FIS is doing now is no different than if the athletes announced that they would be back on 21 meter skis as of 2013 as they have reviewed Dodge's database and decided from that information that deeper sidecuts were safer.  Communication goes a long way.

 

I'm also very skeptical about research that isn't fit to be published or shared.  Why not contribute to the body of knowledge?  There is a school of thought that to perform quality research, and not publish is is a form of academic dishonesty.  

 

 



 

post #193 of 224

Here's a theory.  The real reason for the longer radii is that there were too many ties last year; they need to separate the field, and they can't make the GS any twistier without calling it a SL.

post #194 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

So if I'm right, and Bad Things are in store for WC racing...what does that mean for the rest of us?  Masters racers,


 



 


I thought Masters didn't have any equipment specs... they list on the PDF file that only stack height and boot height are regulated, while ski specs are "recommendations."

 

???

 

 

But I agree with what you are saying... the radius (and length) requirement is ridiculous and definitely would turn off a wider group to racing were it going to affect them.

 

post #195 of 224


Yep, and the inside line says that at least in the US, Masters isn't going to change its stance on the ski specs. If that's true, then Masters racing continues...we think...in the same fashion. Masters is under USSA, however, and, per a previous post, one of the big questions, beyond what this'll do to the WC, is how will it affect Nor Am/Europa Cup?  And how will it affect junior racing? So maybe Masters shouldn't have to change...but juniors in the US might have to have a sidecut/length progression to get juniors to the FIS WC requirements, because that's where they want to head. So now everybody but Masters is essentially competing in a different sport.  Somehow, I don't think that's gonna fly, and there will be increasing pressure on Masters to conform to the FIS rules.  Maybe it won't play out this way, but I think you're going to see some weird stuff going on in the overall sport of ski racing in the next two seasons...

 


frown.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post




I thought Masters didn't have any equipment specs... they list on the PDF file that only stack height and boot height are regulated, while ski specs are "recommendations."

 

???

 

 

But I agree with what you are saying... the radius (and length) requirement is ridiculous and definitely would turn off a wider group to racing were it going to affect them.

 



 

post #196 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post


Yep, and the inside line says that at least in the US, Masters isn't going to change its stance on the ski specs. If that's true, then Masters racing continues...we think...in the same fashion. Masters is under USSA, however, and, per a previous post, one of the big questions, beyond what this'll do to the WC, is how will it affect Nor Am/Europa Cup?  And how will it affect junior racing? So maybe Masters shouldn't have to change...but juniors in the US might have to have a sidecut/length progression to get juniors to the FIS WC requirements, because that's where they want to head. So now everybody but Masters is essentially competing in a different sport.  Somehow, I don't think that's gonna fly, and there will be increasing pressure on Masters to conform to the FIS rules.  Maybe it won't play out this way, but I think you're going to see some weird stuff going on in the overall sport of ski racing in the next two seasons...

 


frown.gif



 




Also going to make it more difficult to get suitable race skis for Masters.  There won't be much choice between recreational models and the full stock 35m.  It was difficult enough when it changed to 27m until most manufacturers started to import the womens 23m models which are more suitable for most of us - ahem- more mature racers.  Better start stock-piling now!  

post #197 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by NE Racer View Post

 

I'm also very skeptical about research that isn't fit to be published or shared.  Why not contribute to the body of knowledge?  There is a school of thought that to perform quality research, and not publish is is a form of academic dishonesty.  

 

 



You should read the ongoing saga of Oscar Pistorius - the South African double amputee running the 400m on carbon fiber prosthetic blades - and the scientific research being thrown about in favor and against his case. The Science of Sport website has a lengthy discussion on the subject.
post #198 of 224


Watch this space...it all depends on how things go in 2012-2013...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post






Also going to make it more difficult to get suitable race skis for Masters.  There won't be much choice between recreational models and the full stock 35m.  It was difficult enough when it changed to 27m until most manufacturers started to import the womens 23m models which are more suitable for most of us - ahem- more mature racers.  Better start stock-piling now!  



 

post #199 of 224

Good point. If this goes through, I will be buying quite a few '10/'11 vintage Volkls in 23M. I absolutely LOVE skiing GS on those and really don't enjoy it when I have to go to 27M for USSA pointed or FIS races. I'll be completely honest... I'm not strong enough to turn the 27M's the way I want to and I'm 6'1 and 180 pounds.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post






Also going to make it more difficult to get suitable race skis for Masters.  There won't be much choice between recreational models and the full stock 35m.  It was difficult enough when it changed to 27m until most manufacturers started to import the womens 23m models which are more suitable for most of us - ahem- more mature racers.  Better start stock-piling now!  



 

post #200 of 224

Here is a thought considering what you wrote here...  Perhaps a well written petition or series of letters to the sponsors (such as Audi) of the FIS expressing disappointment in the direction of equipment decisions of the FIS to the sponsors is a decent way of voicing disapproval.  If they won't listen to the athletes, perhaps pressure from their sponsors would be enough pressure to back down?  I don't want to scare sponsors away, but perhaps a message that we love this sport and this is not making the fans happy would be nice? Please stay involved, but please help us to  continue to get the product we love?  This is like new Coke, and a bunch of other bad ideas to 'improve' good things.  I know I don't want to pay to subscribe to Universal Sports so I can watch athletes skidding around like mediocre high school athletes in GS (No offense to Warner, but that video of him on those skis was painful to watch).  

 

I can respect views to say that too much pressure shouldn't be applied to the FIS, or any other group.  But, isn't this all of OUR sport?  The FIS doesn't own it.  They just act like they do.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

 

- The athletes are petitioning against it, the equipment manufacturers are protesting it...but so far, to my knowledge, sponsors like Audi and Milka aren't saying much.  I think they'll wait to see how 2012-2013 goes, then act accordingly.  That's a real critical time for everyone involved with ski racing, because guess what happens in Feburary 2014?  That's right, the Winter Olympics, first time ever in Sochi, Russia.  The Olympics are about the only time that ski racing gets a wide TV viewership, and the sponsorship/ad money that entails. Especially since ski racing is now competing with skier cross, boarder cross, half pipe, aerials, and all of that lame happy jive, I think all you need is for Men's GS to show up as joke event at the Olympics, and you'll see the effective end of high level ski racing as we know it. 

 

 

frown.gif

 



 



 

post #201 of 224

Yep, I agree.  Let's do it...let me research how to contact the WC sponsors, you already have the start of the letter...this'll probably take a while, but let's do it...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NE Racer View Post

Here is a thought considering what you wrote here...  Perhaps a well written petition or series of letters to the sponsors (such as Audi) of the FIS expressing disappointment in the direction of equipment decisions of the FIS to the sponsors is a decent way of voicing disapproval.  If they won't listen to the athletes, perhaps pressure from their sponsors would be enough pressure to back down?  I don't want to scare sponsors away, but perhaps a message that we love this sport and this is not making the fans happy would be nice? Please stay involved, but please help us to  continue to get the product we love?  This is like new Coke, and a bunch of other bad ideas to 'improve' good things.  I know I don't want to pay to subscribe to Universal Sports so I can watch athletes skidding around like mediocre high school athletes in GS (No offense to Warner, but that video of him on those skis was painful to watch).  

 

I can respect views to say that too much pressure shouldn't be applied to the FIS, or any other group.  But, isn't this all of OUR sport?  The FIS doesn't own it.  They just act like they do.

 



 



 

post #202 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

 

Also going to make it more difficult to get suitable race skis for Masters.  There won't be much choice between recreational models and the full stock 35m.  It was difficult enough when it changed to 27m until most manufacturers started to import the womens 23m models which are more suitable for most of us - ahem- more mature racers.  Better start stock-piling now!  

 

I'm not well versed in the different equipment regs of different racing organizations and I'm posting this over my concern of the future market for cheater race skis.


I'm not sure of the size of the different markets, but I wonder how this might play out.  Currently, Manufacturers carry FIS and non FIS skis race skis.  The non-FIS, or cheaters, seem to hold a decent share of the market.  I make the last statement based solely on the fact that they keep making them.  This could have a ripple effect that reaches NASTAR and beer league racing.

 

Is it reasonable to think that manufacturers would add 27M skis to the non-FIS cheater list?  Would 27M skis bump some of the other cheater models off the list?  Especially if some current conforming FIS races/organizations don't conform to the new FIS (Why would they since no one seems to support it). 

 

If those groups decide to not follow FIS is it reasonable to think that they will (since the tie is severed) come up with something different all together?  Maybe their new legal is; Men > 23M and Women > 21M (I'm completely guessing) for GS.  Once you break out, you can make your own rules.  Maybe they come up with a spec that would work for NASTAR through Nor Am?  Even I can carve a tight weekend NASTAR course on a 21M ski without having to step uphill.  Would 21M or 23M work in Nor Am?  I think so.

 

Maybe by FIS changing will weaken the WC but the ripple effect is the other organizations are strengthened?  I'm not trying to justify what FIS did.  I think there might be a better outcome for most of the folks expressing concern if everyone's attention is to the organizations that have been following suit under FIS.

 

Screw FIS.  Why are they needed outside of the WC.  It will probably take less energy than changing FIS. 

 

If the other orgs decide to follow FIS, doesn't it make sense to change the ages certain things take effect.  Maybe 35M wouldn't come into play until at the collegiate level?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

post #203 of 224

I gotta talk to my Atomic rep, but my guess is that he's not going to know much of anything until next summer.  My guess, however, is that you're right.  Assuming that Masters and other non-WC groups aren't bound by the 35 meter rule, they're going to want non-FIS in lengths and radiuses you can get now, including 27m, 24m, etc.  So we'll see, watch this space...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post



 

I'm not well versed in the different equipment regs of different racing organizations and I'm posting this over my concern of the future market for cheater race skis.


I'm not sure of the size of the different markets, but I wonder how this might play out.  Currently, Manufacturers carry FIS and non FIS skis race skis.  The non-FIS, or cheaters, seem to hold a decent share of the market.  I make the last statement based solely on the fact that they keep making them.  This could have a ripple effect that reaches NASTAR and beer league racing.

 

Is it reasonable to think that manufacturers would add 27M skis to the non-FIS cheater list?  Would 27M skis bump some of the other cheater models off the list?  Especially if some current conforming FIS races/organizations don't conform to the new FIS (Why would they since no one seems to support it). 

 

If those groups decide to not follow FIS is it reasonable to think that they will (since the tie is severed) come up with something different all together?  Maybe their new legal is; Men > 23M and Women > 21M (I'm completely guessing) for GS.  Once you break out, you can make your own rules.  Maybe they come up with a spec that would work for NASTAR through Nor Am?  Even I can carve a tight weekend NASTAR course on a 21M ski without having to step uphill.  Would 21M or 23M work in Nor Am?  I think so.

 

Maybe by FIS changing will weaken the WC but the ripple effect is the other organizations are strengthened?  I'm not trying to justify what FIS did.  I think there might be a better outcome for most of the folks expressing concern if everyone's attention is to the organizations that have been following suit under FIS.

 

Screw FIS.  Why are they needed outside of the WC.  It will probably take less energy than changing FIS. 

 

If the other orgs decide to follow FIS, doesn't it make sense to change the ages certain things take effect.  Maybe 35M wouldn't come into play until at the collegiate level?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 



 

post #204 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

I gotta talk to my Atomic rep, but my guess is that he's not going to know much of anything until next summer.  My guess, however, is that you're right.  Assuming that Masters and other non-WC groups aren't bound by the 35 meter rule, they're going to want non-FIS in lengths and radiuses you can get now, including 27m, 24m, etc.  So we'll see, watch this space...

 



 



If that's the case though, skis will cost more as the supply of barely used FIS skis will dry up.

post #205 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post


If that's the case though, skis will cost more as the supply of barely used FIS skis will dry up.

 

Won't the market just start buying barely used non-FIS skis?

 

post #206 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post



 

Won't the market just start buying barely used non-FIS skis?

 


The FIS racers get free skis and sell them really cheap when they get new ones. If we want to buy used 40m skis we will be able to get them.

post #207 of 224

After reading all these posts, I think many of you are reading too much into this for the Masters/Junior race level. As far as USSA Masters (which I also race in), the vast majority of the racers are too weak and out of shape to be skiing on a current race stock anyway. Too much beer drinking and not enough time hitting the weight room in the off season. Besides, as long as there is a market, ski companies will make "cheater" race stock. I spent some time last spring on Rossi's new 185cm 23 M Masters GS, which has all the bells and whistles of the WC skis, and it is one kick butt design. I sure other companies will follow with similar designs. Masters racers may have a harder time getting really cheap WC skis that work for them, but all you need to do is get friendly with a company rep, and they will give you "racer" prices on just about anything you want.

 

These changes are only for the WC, and 99.9% of the kids in Junior programs simply don't have the genetic potential to get there anyway. Just like 99.9% of the kids that play football aren't going to make it into the NFL no matter how hard they try. Most of these kids are going to move on to Masters or Beer League after high school, some may race at the Club level in college, an even smaller % will race NCAA, and the 0.1% genetic freaks will get on the WC. That 0.1% is the only ones that will have to deal with the FIS, and knowing the FIS as well as I do, the will probably change the ski specs again if the new 30/35M rule backfires in their face.

 

 

post #208 of 224


I think you're probably right...it's just not guaranteed.  What you say is very likely for Masters, dunno about juniors. Up until now, as they get into J1/J2, they've had to start at least thinking about using skis with WC specs, because that's what Europa and Nor Am have also used. I agree that it *sounds* like what the FIS wants to do is have the new regs apply to WC only.  If that's true, you have, as I have pointed out in another post, a very strange dynamic.  Essentially, the WC racers are competing in a completely different sport than everyone else. That, alone, ought to make the FIS wonder about the wisdom of what they're trying to sell...on the other hand, it might make them try to enforce this for the other circuits.  Or do something weird like say that J1s have to be on a 190, 30 meter sidecut ski.  As I've pointed out, so far, there is no official position from the USSA, or not one that I know about, anyway. It's really up to the USSA to take what the FIS mandates for WC and try to apply it to juniors, Masters, and the rest of us.  Anyone have any inside info on this?

 

frown.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post

After reading all these posts, I think many of you are reading too much into this for the Masters/Junior race level. As far as USSA Masters (which I also race in), the vast majority of the racers are too weak and out of shape to be skiing on a current race stock anyway. Too much beer drinking and not enough time hitting the weight room in the off season. Besides, as long as there is a market, ski companies will make "cheater" race stock. I spent some time last spring on Rossi's new 185cm 23 M Masters GS, which has all the bells and whistles of the WC skis, and it is one kick butt design. I sure other companies will follow with similar designs. Masters racers may have a harder time getting really cheap WC skis that work for them, but all you need to do is get friendly with a company rep, and they will give you "racer" prices on just about anything you want.

 

These changes are only for the WC, and 99.9% of the kids in Junior programs simply don't have the genetic potential to get there anyway. Just like 99.9% of the kids that play football aren't going to make it into the NFL no matter how hard they try. Most of these kids are going to move on to Masters or Beer League after high school, some may race at the Club level in college, an even smaller % will race NCAA, and the 0.1% genetic freaks will get on the WC. That 0.1% is the only ones that will have to deal with the FIS, and knowing the FIS as well as I do, the will probably change the ski specs again if the new 30/35M rule backfires in their face.

 

 



 

post #209 of 224

Cheater skis will always be around, b/c amateur racers love buying them for NASTAR, beer league, masters, and ice-coast-carving.

 

 

What will skier-cross skiers be using?  Do they have equipment specs?

 

 

I think the FIS (run by older gentlemen) wants to bring back the past... this isn't about safety.  If it was, then all races would be conducted on bunny hills, which they are not.... They can't continue kitzbuhel and claim anything in ski racing is about "safety."  This is about bringing back the archaic moves of 80's GS with straight skis.

 

 

But the FIS isn't the only organization straying away from sidecut... just look at much of the newer fattish skis, all with 20-something radii, people at epicski criticising the "park-and-ride" like its a crime, and having a tough time finding tight radii in any high-performance non-"race" ski.  amongst some people here there is a tacit scorn for sidecut... probably rooted in the same disgust with departure from yesteryear as the FIS.

post #210 of 224

Can someone speak on Benni Raich's stand on this issue? This article http://sport.orf.at/stories/2078961/2078960/    has Raich and Schild supporting the changes while various sites on the internet have them both coming out in support of the Skifreeresponsible crowd at least on their facebook pages. I understand Raich took part in a roundtable on the subject which can be found  here: http://www.servustv.com/cs/Satellite/Article/Sport-und-Talk-aus-dem-Hangar-7-011259392592785.  But unfortunately I don't speak German.  Does anyone who speaks German have some information?

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