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Why Havent Moguls Changed? - Page 3

post #61 of 88
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

July Line.jpg

That was half of our line in West Bowl,Mammoth,  looked like that till July 5th.  Skier made or cat made?


Looks like a race course that was pulled. Don't like to be told where to turn. That's why freestyle started so skiers could turn where they want.

Those are skier made but don't call them moguls this is what I call bumps . Still just a rut line that does not end. Suggest that some skier should get out of the rut and hit a mogul head on and ski over it to see if the skier can negotiate some other line like banking off the side or skiing over the mogul. These bumps are formed so the skier can only zipper line them as they are not fully formed moguls =  they are bumps.


Rusty agree with your. As we all know the zipper is the 1st thing bumpers see as they look down a bump line..  Novice bump skiing is the zipper line.


post #62 of 88

I'm drooling over Joemammoth's sweet zipper line. That looks like fun!


Novice line? The skills to follow that line are probably mastered by the smallest percentage of skiers on the hill.


However, I will concede that a zipper line like that is not the only way to have fun in the bumps. They're all fun! Yes we do laps seeking sweet bump lines - including some nice zipper lines.


In the old days I think skis skidded more. Modern skis are easier and quicker to find an edge to carve. More people are carving their way down the hill. And their lines can be more aggressive. I don't know if the shape of the mogul changes too much from this but it seems that nice bump lines do form faster - more skilled traffic?


The flip side of all these skilled skiers on the hill is that the powder gets skied out faster. If you aren't on first chair you might as well just seek out the bumps. Or enjoy the cut up snow - you can pretend the spots between the tracks are bumps and mash a few really soft bumps! Does this ruin the eventual mogul? Sorry!



post #63 of 88

I am posting this wondering if it is the same "bump" line that Joemammoth posted the picture of?


Mammoth June 22nd 2011:


Either way, it was fun for me & I am not someone who gets to ski bumps or moguls very often.



post #64 of 88


Yup, same line.  It looks like you guys were there during a week I was down south.  

post #65 of 88

Sweet line! I hope moguls don't change from that too much!

post #66 of 88

Thanks, E.  You live in San Diego?  Ever ski Baldy?

post #67 of 88
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

Yup, same line.  It looks like you guys were there during a week I was down south.  

Thanks, I thought it might be.  That day there was a Frenchie on an old carving snowboard mounted mono-ski style bashin it up.


I would have to agree with CVJ, that this was more of a set zipperline than what you would encounter on most recreational mogul runs.  Doesn't mean everyone has to ski it the same though.  Just look at the difference between my adaptation from the perspective of an unpracticed, wild armed, flailing freeskier, to your well honed, precise & accurate zipper technique... both fun, either gets us down the hill.




post #68 of 88

I agree 4ster.  We skied that in about 6 times this spring cause it kept filling in!  I kinda like the bump line to not be so one dimensional, but when I try to put other lines in, so many people gravitate to the main line that the others do not last. I will slip it 5 or 6 times down the middle and to the sides, so that a skier can have more options on where to turn, but just not enough people skiing in June and July, then it melts over night.  My buddy from South Lake enjoys making the line super straight!

post #69 of 88

Baldy is fun. However, the moguls did change there a lot. Before snowboards Baldy's bumps were almost as good as Squaw's. But Baldy was 80% snowboards last time I skied there. The bumps were small and really widely spaced. And there were no advanced skiers left to generate good bumps. Still, the people there are friendly and the mountain is challenging. The snow sucks though.


I ski Big Bear a lot. Awful drive but I can mooch off my buddy's slopeside mansion - so I enjoy that a lot. The snow and the bumps suck there too. I've gotten a couple of good powder days at Mountain High. My kids learned there or around the corner at Sunrise (I think Mountain High bought that). But no great bump lines.


Is Waterman still there? I never skied it - just wondering.


Mammoth counts as a Socal hill too. Even if the snow doesn't suck. And you can find real bumps. The drive (and speeding tickets) make it another suburb of LA.


But mostly I get to ski Squaw. With it's sweet zipper lines all over the hill. I'm spoiled!



post #70 of 88

I like Baldy for the steeps and the snow for when it is there...only started skiing there last season.  The trees there are fun too

post #71 of 88

Here in Idaho we also ski Bald Mt. In the start of the video these moguls are the best natural random moguls with big back sides in the world.


To make the same QCT skiers make on the groomed to the moguls. Ask yourself where a skier could make the same turn in the moguls that they make on the groomed run?


To me it is obvious on the big back sides of the mogul.


post #72 of 88

Joem sensi who is the new owner of the zipper line site?


Maybe banned delete.

post #73 of 88

Don t know who has it. 


Sorry to hear about Speedy.  Not sure if he skied with you, but Idaho freestyle lost a good competitor

post #74 of 88

Speedy is a tragedy. He a lot more to offer the sport.

post #75 of 88

Dam, that is a run I want to ski on my 215 DH.  What area please I need toschedule  my vacation after I finish my port.

post #76 of 88

Bumps have changed, but mostly due to snowboards. If you can't make it to Alta/Snowbird as BWPA mentioned, you can try skiing Mad River Glen and Castle Rock at Sugarbush the same day or week (fairly close to "apples to apples" as far as grooming, snow, and traffic are concerned). Please note I'm not saying that boarders can't rip in the bumps, just that the presence of boards seems to make for bumps with a bit more "sidedness" (a shorter, longer, shorter pattern, within a given line), as well as wider troughs.


I will throw in as a reason bumps haven't changed (absent snowboards), something I first heard skiing with the Jane Gang 30 years ago  "Ugly skiers make ugly bumps.". Bump skiers with no noticeable flow or rhythm makes bumps with no noticeable flow or rhythm. Over their head skiers tend to form glacial sheet/vertical face bumps as they constantly hit the brakes coming out of the fall line. Over their head boarders on the other hand tend to make flat open glaciers as they heel slide their way down tough patches. Percentages still favor ugly skiers out there, so to answer Skidude72's question, No, new gear has not made a quantum change in the skiing of the public at large.   

post #77 of 88
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post



Whitetail does not have consistent zipper line runs on Exhibition. There are simply too many average and below average bumpers hitting that trail to establish and maintain zipper lines. Exhibition does get some great bumps for a good work out, but it is rare that one can establish a steady rhythm because the odds of finding 4 or more similarly sized bumps in a row are slim to none. The one exception is the upper flatter portion of exhibition. Although the bumps there are typically not even, the pitch is flat enough and the bumps are small enough so that is possible to absorb the terrain imperfections and force a steady rhythm onto fall line turns. Once in a blue moon we get some fresh snow and light crowds and a few zipper lines will form. When the practice bumps are fresh, they are usually perfect. But over the last two seasons, they have typically been cut up after 3 days.


Nonsense. Check out freeheeler Rich to see top to bottom rhythm and flow. We double up the bumps on the flatter top section that you find manageable. The bumps are fine. It sounds like you need practice. Hook up with Rich and ask for some pointers.


post #78 of 88
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

It sounds like you need practice. 

I could always use more practice. But perhaps you've forgotten seeing my bump skiing on Exhibition. I suspect we have different meanings for rhythm. If I get a chance this season, I'll catch you and show you what I mean.


post #79 of 88

I think you were snowboarding the only time I saw you and you were on a blue run. Did you post video of you skiing Exhibition or do you imagine I was watching you from the chair? I don't go there often. I rarely see instructors in the bumps at Whitetail. Of those I've observed, some were doing pretty good.


2 a : the aspect of music comprising all the elements (as accent,meter, and tempo) that relate to forward movement

post #80 of 88

Round bumps are not created by long skis per say. They are created by pure skidding technique ... as in WC technique. The modern approach of using short, shaped skis that allow some amount of scarving results in the elongated, banana moguls.

post #81 of 88
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

I think you were snowboarding the only time I saw you and you were on a blue run. Did you post video of you skiing Exhibition or do you imagine I was watching you from the chair? I don't go there often. I rarely see instructors in the bumps at Whitetail. Of those I've observed, some were doing pretty good.


2 a : the aspect of music comprising all the elements (as accent,meter, and tempo) that relate to forward movement

I've seen you over there a bunch, but it's a lot easier for me to spot you than vice versa.


I have not had success getting video done on Exhibition. It's too hard for rookie cameramen to get decent footage and it's too hard to coordinate getting good camera skills over there and back in the limited free time we have in between lessons. And I spend 1/2 my time on a snowboard. And it's not that important to me. At my age and fitness. my best days in the bumps are behind me. There are plenty of great reference clips available. 


post #82 of 88

Are you sure it was me? I've only been there a couple days per season in recent years. 


Bumps haven't changed. People have been complaining about how bad the moguls are now compared to how  they used to be for as long as I've been skiing bumps, over 40 years.

post #83 of 88



I've met you at Whitetail. You're pretty hard to miss on tele gear. When you're there you tend to do laps on the bumps. I am at Whitetail every weekend. So if your two times a season are on weekends and we're not so busy that I never get off the beginner terrain, I'll see you.


Irregular bumps are simply a different challenge than a zipper line. But since a natural zipper line requires a concentration of talent on the slopes, long ones on decent pitches are a rare treat. In some places they are not so rare and in others they are really rare. But I agree that they aren't really any different now then they were 40 years ago.


post #84 of 88

So our conclusion is that regardless of whether or not moguls change over the years as in gear technology evolves... the consensus is ....


T-Rod stays the same biggrin.gificon14.gif



post #85 of 88

I've cleaned up my image.


Thanks Tom for the original image and Garin for showing me how to bring out the detail.

Edited by telerod15 - 11/19/11 at 11:23am
post #86 of 88

Moguls have changed.  1 Zipper lines have bumps not moguls. Bumps are sub-terrainial, inverted, or under the surface of the run. Moguls form above the surface of the run. A mogul is a mound of formed by skiers turning. Bumps are made by  a snow cat or flags set in a perfect rhythm.


It is all about the terms.smile.gif

post #87 of 88



I've only been skiing for 40 years but in that time moguls and bumps have always been the same thing. Now you want to redefine these terms to have different meanings. From someone who has struggled on this forum because of different ways of using the same word I would think that you would want to avoid the pitfalls of doing this.


Further, your distinction makes no sense to me. Skiers skiing a slope tend to make piles of snow and then ski around those piles pushing more snow on to the piles while scraping down the sections between the piles. Over time the slope 'bumps up" if left ungroomed. There is no order to these bumps. In the dead of night a snow cat goes out and pushes the snow into precisely placed piles.Then a bunch of skiers ski that slope in a particular way that scrapes snow from the area between the piles and pushes it onto the piles. Over time the moguls get taller and the troughs get deeper and you have a FIS World cup mogul run. There is a high degree of order to these moguls. In both cases the process is making piles of snow and then scraping down the areas between the piles while pushing more snow onto the piles.


Can you further explain the difference you see between the two?





post #88 of 88

Cat bumps you must only ski the perfect zipper line. Skiers go around the bumps.The skier is told where to make every turn and has no creativity involved in where they can turn. Freestyle skiing start so skiers would have a choice on where to turn and be more creative. Natural bumps allow for making more turns that the skier decides not the bumps. They have a back side the skier can get up.  In natural moguls  the skier now has the choice to use different spots on the mogul to turn. Examples are the rut, bank off the sides or find the big white spots on the back side where the skier can make there own turns.


The BUMPS vs MOGULS is a joke.

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