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Why Havent Moguls Changed? - Page 2

post #31 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

 

...can ruin a potential bump trail from a fresh dump...


This is oxymoronic. Bumps are themselves one form of "ungainly end" of what starts out as good snow. OK for some practice when there is no really good skiing. The thread easily could have stopped with BWPA's post IMO.

post #32 of 88

 

Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Hey Atomicman - you're in the Alpental area. Do you see the "longer" moguls on International that I see? I don't recall so many troughs being 15-feet long back in the 80's, do you?

.ma


Banana Bumps...

These long thin bumps pointing straight down the hill are quite common in New England where I ski.  

 

 

post #33 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post




This is oxymoronic. Bumps are themselves one form of "ungainly end" of what starts out as good snow. OK for some practice when there is no really good skiing. The thread easily could have stopped with BWPA's post IMO.


Man, you gotta ski more bumps. They can be as fun as powder under the right conditions.
post #34 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



Man, you gotta ski more bumps. They can be as fun as powder under the right conditions.


And the combination -- (large) bumps covered in a foot-plus of snow -- is about as fun as it gets. 

post #35 of 88

We used to create our own bumps (bump run) by having the area close the run and blow lots of snow, smooth it out some killing the whales, then the freestyle team would ski in a single file line all turning in the same spots behind the coach for several nights until the main ruts/lines were cut deep/high enough.  Once we had the basic lines formed we opened it up for  everyone to help build them bigger.  We would do that before a meet or anytime we needed to re do them..

post #36 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



Man, you gotta ski more bumps. They can be as fun as powder under the right conditions.


Disagree.

 

Maybe I'm just getting old & my memory is failing, but I don't recall ever skiing a powder day with anyone who said "hey let's take a few laps on those bumps that have formed up on I5, 'cause they can be as much fun as that foot of untracked off 7th..." wink.gif

 

I'll grant you guys that bumps make for good practice. So there's a bit of silver lining when you gotta ski them. But IMO there is none of the joy of fresh snow in them. Not even the casual pleasure of fresh corduroy.

 

And again, if you ignore the polarizing vocabulary and look at the substance of it,  I think there is truth in what Josh said about their formation. I suspect if more folks were on modern gear and did fewer hoppy stompy turns, there'd be fewer bumps (yeah!).

post #37 of 88

OK. Edit won't edit me edit  - all joking aside, I have to say Posaune is way smoother in bumps than I'll likely ever be. Gotta give credit where it is due. But I've seen him ski pretty out of his way for fresh snow. Not quite so much for bumps biggrin.gif

post #38 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

OK. Edit won't edit me edit  - all joking aside, I have to say Posaune is way smoother in bumps than I'll likely ever be. Gotta give credit where it is due. But I've seen him ski pretty out of his way for fresh snow. Not quite so much for bumps biggrin.gif


That's because the bumps will still be there later after the powder is totally tracked out. When there's new snow, the bumps can wait.
post #39 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post





And the combination -- (large) bumps covered in a foot-plus of snow -- is about as fun as it gets. 


As long as the coverage is even. If it was blowing during the storm and the troughs are filled in so that you can't see them, then it ain't so much fun. It's like skiing in a mine field.
post #40 of 88

I love skiing bumps, I ll ski hard nasty icey, misformed bumps any day over skiing groomers. but to be honest given the choice id choose not bumped up natural snow any day over bumps. I do wish people would open it more everywhere so bumps would stop forming.

 

There is nothing better than maching though fresh snow on lines that dont have bumps,  but I would not be as good as skiing open powder fields if it wasnt for bump skiing.

 

 

 

 

post #41 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post





And the combination -- (large) bumps covered in a foot-plus of snow -- is about as fun as it gets. 


As long as the coverage is even. If it was blowing during the storm and the troughs are filled in so that you can't see them, then it ain't so much fun. It's like skiing in a mine field.

That's why I said "large" -- then you just relax your legs, point em downhill, and go up and over whoopdedoo. It's like plain old powder skiing but more 3D. Tight troughs, yes, different if you don't know where they are. Hasn't happened to me very often, though.
post #42 of 88

 

 

 

Quote:
Maybe I'm just getting old & my memory is failing, but I don't recall ever skiing a powder day with anyone who said "hey let's take a few laps on those bumps that have formed up on I5, 'cause they can be as much fun as that foot of untracked off 7th..." wink.gif

 

One of my most memorable runs was Ruins of Pompeii at Deer Valley. It was a powder day. Back in those days the local powder hounds left DV alone while the tourists at DV stuck to the groomed trails like glue (those days are long gone). The gladed areas were a complete smorgasboard of opportunity, but you had to hit a few regular runs coming or going to get to a few of them. I was looking for an entrance to Peerless but on ROP the bumps were like pillows. If you had enough speed you could drop 10-15 feet from pillow to pillow into these explosions of snow. In the trees, it was just powder skiing, but on ROP it was unique! While it is important to know where "the goods" are and hit them before they are gone, if you don't go exploring you'll never find the unexpected. If you are a "bump" skier, or a "powder" skier, or a "tree" skier; then you've just made it easier for a "skier" to find the best of the best.

post #43 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Could it be that because most people skid, the length of the ski doesn't have that much effect on the size of the bumps created.  Long ski, straight ski, shaped ski and fat ski all skid in a similar fashion.

 

The difference is in the top 25% (of rec skiers th_dunno-1[1].gif - I'm guessing) that really know how to use the ski.  Everyone else is skidding on a better ski.

 

Ken

 

Are you suggesting carving in the bumps?
 

 

post #44 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post


Are you suggesting carving in the bumps?
 

 



Nope.  In Skidude72's original post he was talking about bumps that are the result of skiers tracks.  From the original post"

 

"Advance now to today.  Generally most people are now on FAT skis, so they can rip "Big Lines"....ie make larger GS style turns regardless of the pitch.  Now, wouldn't one then expect that the moguls created from that, would be different to the "traditional" ones?  I figure, these moguls should appear much bigger around, and more progressive, like upside down dinner plates, rather then the normal upside down coffee mugs (if you can follow that analogy). "

 

 

 

My thought is that since so many people skid and don't carve, the turn radius and length of the ski don't matter so much.  If I skid a turn on a narrow straight ski or a fat shaped ski, the tracks are going to look very similar.  Once the bumps are formed, there is more skidding.

 

I'm not experienced enough in bumps to comment on bump technique.

 

Ken

post #45 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post




But IMO there is none of the joy of fresh snow in them. Not even the casual pleasure of fresh corduroy.

 

 



Dude, you gotta ski with me some day.  I'll show you some joy =)

 

post #46 of 88

IMHO, Whiteroom authored the post with the most truth.

 

Also IMHO the biggest change in bump shape has come from snowboards.  I've seen lots of boarders ripping the bumps with skill, but usually I see 'em moving straight down the fall line as slowly as possible, never moving from their heel side edge.

 

I think the universal truth here is that good bump skiers make good bumps (and the opposite is also true). 

 

Having cut my teeth on Mary Jane bumps, I can't tell you the number of times I've gone somewhere else, found the 'sweet bump lines' that the locals talk about and think 'they call these bumps?'

 

I guess I haven't been skiing bumps long enough to tell if they are much different than they were twenty years ago but I see stark differences from resort to resort in the same season.  I recall looking down a bumped up run at Jackson Hole and thinking, 'the good skiers here make way bigger turns than the good skiers at the Jane.'  Mostly though, when I visit a different hill I think, 'the good skiers here must not ski the bumps.'

post #47 of 88

BAMF: Bumps Are More Fun or Be A Mogul Freaq

 

Bumps have changed for numerous reason most stated above. But it is just evolution of how people now slide and what they slide on be it snowboards, shaped skis, snow blade, fat skis, ect. There is a whole generation of skiers who never skied a "straight ski". What do World Cup mogul skiers ski? Straight skis. What were the old moguls formed by? Straight Skis. See a pattern here? Or line as the case may be.

post #48 of 88

BAMF!

Mogul shape and feel has always been extermely variable. The snow conditions and skier population affect the initial contour and frequency of the moguls. Once they are formed, the moguls continue to evolve. Weather and skiers massage the initial lines. Snow conditions change the feel radically from day to day. I'm not sure that today's moguls are out of the range of normal variation from prehistoric moguls - at least the modern equipment makes the feel of the bumps similar. Maybe  Squaw may be unusual but the great bump days at Squaw have always been and are still fantasic.

 

Regardless, bump skiing challenges you to turn as quickly and as tight as you can. Adjust your speed and line for whatever the conditions offer. Bump skiing hasn't changed.

 

Eric

post #49 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

 Mostly though, when I visit a different hill I think, 'the good skiers here must not ski the bumps.'


Err umm, there are no good skiers here LOL!

 

post #50 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



That's because the bumps will still be there later after the powder is totally tracked out. When there's new snow, the bumps can wait.


And if you can't ski bumps, you learn how,  or convince yourself that bumps aren't fun, wait until it snows again, and enjoy the groomers in the meantime. :)

post #51 of 88



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

 

Having cut my teeth on Mary Jane bumps, I can't tell you the number of times I've gone somewhere else, found the 'sweet bump lines' that the locals talk about and think 'they call these bumps?'
 

 

As a Jane bumper myself, when I encounter this I always imagine that Jane bumps are the calisthenics that let you enjoy the less intense variety with ease.  No matter how in the zone I get, I can always find lines at Jane that kick my ass. 

 

post #52 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post

How do your guys make?  What do you mean by fully formed?


The man made mogul or prefect zipper line is the problem. The only place to ski these unnatural fields of bumps is the rut, because of the way they are formed you can not ski over them and the skier is stuck in the hole or rut = THE ZIPPER LINE. IMO Snowbird has no more moguls. Sun Valley has the same moguls it has had for 20 years some in the same spots from year to year. Why?

 

Skiers skiing still make them. Skiers turning make moguls not cats. Snow cats make a rut line or the glory hole known as the zipper line. ba hum bug the zipper line. Let skiers make moguls........

 

In the old days the zipper line would end & this is when the skiers would blow out or up. End the perfect zipper line in the moguls & ski your own line.


Edited by cvj - 8/1/11 at 7:48am
post #53 of 88

Problems? We don' need no steenkeen problems! 

 

In the old days, I used to enjoy a perfect zipper line. It was nice to be in the company of skiers who were skilled enough to maintain a decent line. Blowing up/out at the end? Please! (i.e. not my observation)  Only later did I become skilled enough to ski different lines equally well. But that doesn't mean I still don't enjoy a good zip every now and then. Different lines? They are all good.

 

At my hill, cats make zipper lines (for our practice bumps) and our skiers break them. It is a rare day when the percentage of talented bumpers is high enough to create a zipper line. That's not a problem. It is what it is and we get over it.

post #54 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Problems? We don' need no steenkeen problems! 

 

In the old days, I used to enjoy a perfect zipper line. It was nice to be in the company of skiers who were skilled enough to maintain a decent line. Blowing up/out at the end? Please! (i.e. not my observation)  Only later did I become skilled enough to ski different lines equally well. But that doesn't mean I still don't enjoy a good zip every now and then. Different lines? They are all good.

 

At my hill, cats make zipper lines (for our practice bumps) and our skiers break them. It is a rare day when the percentage of talented bumpers is high enough to create a zipper line. That's not a problem. It is what it is and we get over it.


Bullshit. Whitetail has great bumps and great bumpers.

 

post #55 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Problems? We don' need no steenkeen problems! 

 

In the old days, I used to enjoy a perfect zipper line. It was nice to be in the company of skiers who were skilled enough to maintain a decent line. Blowing up/out at the end? Please! (i.e. not my observation)  Only later did I become skilled enough to ski different lines equally well. But that doesn't mean I still don't enjoy a good zip every now and then. Different lines? They are all good.

 

At my hill, cats make zipper lines (for our practice bumps) and our skiers break them. It is a rare day when the percentage of talented bumpers is high enough to create a zipper line. That's not a problem. It is what it is and we get over it.


Need to disagree. Cat moguls are just not formed so skiers can ski any other line than the zipper. Not natural artificial fake what ever.

 

Give me moguls made by skiers turning where & when they want not when some man made bump tells me to. If I wanted to be told when to turn I would find a race course.

 

 

 

post #56 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

Bumps are not the same at all these days.

 

In the 'Time Before Snowboards' we all skied on long straight skis, expert slopes were left un-groomed and the best skiers on the hill could be located pretty easily... they we're right underneath the chairlift skiing the the prime bump line. Now a days, 'expert' skiers are hiding out in the trees and hiking away from the lifts into side-country terrain, heck it's a lot easier to claim rad-ness if no one was there to see you. 25 years ago everyone saw you, they saw your every run. They cheered when you were ripping or throwing big air, they jeered you when you weren't. because the 'best' skiers, actually that doesn't need quotes around best, the BEST skiers were mogul skiers, they took lap after lap on the same line so good skiers skiing the same line generated pretty damn good bump lines. Now our 'expert' skiers (this time we need the quotes) usually say:

 

"I don't like bumps because all the rad skiing I do in the powder and back country has left my knees sore when I ski bumps. Ouchy, it hurts to be hardcore."

 

Plake said it best- What's the big deal with mogul skiing? You don't fake it, you can't buy it. It's real. you can buy a fat ski and chase the best skiers around the hill skiing the powder lines, you can buy a short carver and look like a ski instructor or racer 'carving' your turns... there is no way to buy mogul skiing, you have to earn it.

 

Modern mogul trails are often groomed on one half... what a joke. It allows bad skiers to get in over their heads and then bail out to the groomed side, creating lines that go diagonally across the hill vs down the fall line, making bumps a rhthym-less pain in the ass for skiers looking to actually ski real bumps. It's like that side of the sport has died. New equipment produced a new-wave of technology fueled 'expert' skiers, they didn't develop the skills to handle bumps, so they just... ignored and abandoned them. Since no one was asking area mgmnt for bumps they started grooming the trails to offer their carving customers 'steep groomed expert' trails.



Whiteroom, I have to wonder if you've ever actually been off piste. Those shots in magazines that show a skier floating down wide open glades of untracked hip deep snow? That's awesome, but that's also taken either way out in the backcountry, or at dawn after a 2 foot dump, before the resort opens. Any other time, sidecountry skiing is just skiing a mogul field where there are trees growing out of the tops of all the moguls, and you most likely can't see your line past 5 turns. I don't know any skier who skis trees who can't ski moguls. In fact, before I escort skiers off piste for the first time, I have them run a few bump lines, to see if they have those skills. After all, those are some of the skills you use out there in the wilderness.

post #57 of 88

Rod,

 

Whitetail does not have consistent zipper line runs on Exhibition. There are simply too many average and below average bumpers hitting that trail to establish and maintain zipper lines. Exhibition does get some great bumps for a good work out, but it is rare that one can establish a steady rhythm because the odds of finding 4 or more similarly sized bumps in a row are slim to none. The one exception is the upper flatter portion of exhibition. Although the bumps there are typically not even, the pitch is flat enough and the bumps are small enough so that is possible to absorb the terrain imperfections and force a steady rhythm onto fall line turns. Once in a blue moon we get some fresh snow and light crowds and a few zipper lines will form. When the practice bumps are fresh, they are usually perfect. But over the last two seasons, they have typically been cut up after 3 days.

post #58 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvj View Post




Need to disagree. Cat moguls are just not formed so skiers can ski any other line than the zipper. Not natural artificial fake what ever.

 

Give me moguls made by skiers turning where & when they want not when some man made bump tells me to. If I wanted to be told when to turn I would find a race course.

 

 

 


cvj,

 

Not all cat created moguls are created for competitions. At Whitetail, we create small sections of moguls on intermediate runs for the sole purpose of being a "practice area" for lesser skilled skiers before they hit our advanced dedicated bump run. Beginners don't zip.

 

Personally, I'd rather have the option to ski with rhythm or not. For me there is a physical pleasure in turning off the brain and just flowing down the hill on muscle power alone. I also enjoy the tactical challenge of "flowing" through uneven bumps using constant visual recognition of the terrain and mixing of tactics to adapt to terrain variations. One does not have to take the zipper line in perfectly formed bumps, but one can not make perfectly symmetrical fall line turns through uneven bumps. I don't get to ski/ride a lot of zipper lines. Is this really a huge problem?

 

post #59 of 88
Quote:

Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 

My thought is that since so many people skid and don't carve, the turn radius and length of the ski don't matter so much.  If I skid a turn on a narrow straight ski or a fat shaped ski, the tracks are going to look very similar.  Once the bumps are formed, there is more skidding.

 

I'm not experienced enough in bumps to comment on bump technique.

 

Ken


Ken, this is perfectly right. Excellent posting. Except there is no real separate bump technique. Its just skiing in bumps. Good skiers rip in bumps.

 

post #60 of 88

July Line.jpg

That was half of our line in West Bowl,Mammoth,  looked like that till July 5th.  Skier made or cat made?

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