New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

TRAVERSING, the good & bad - Page 3

post #61 of 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

Learning to use those dynamics to your advantage while skiing is something that can only be done once you start carrying speed down the hill.



icon14.gif

 

post #62 of 84

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

there is non way you could traverse a 70 degree slope in the position that this guy is in...

The ski has more grip on the snow due to the dynamic's of skiing and in a traverse it just wouldnt not be that decambered.

 

Bush, 

You are correct, momentum has a great impact on how bent the ski is; this frame is taken at or near apex, where the forces are strongest.  Those forces are capable of bending the skis, and indeed they are doing just that in this picture.  

 

Traversing usually does not involve much momentum, nor large forces, nor bent skis.

 

By the way, this image is of Tanja Poutianen skiing, a woman ... definitely not a guy.
 

 

post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



 

 

My perspective on alot of things isnt from a ski instructor's but from a freeskier's perspective. I personally hate how most instructors ski ala joyless symetrical turn with no fun, energy or panche'.  Sure traversing is used to teach things, but the ideal way of skiing terrain whether it be crud,bumps, steeps, trees , groomers it not a regimental frame of reference of only linking turns down the fall line. form follows function here and the real reason of linking turns is because skiing IS a dynamic sport. Learning to use those dynamics to your advantage while skiing is something that can only be done once you start carrying speed down the hill.  Most people who are timid and start using traverses are hurting themselves.
 

 

Holy Cow!  Check the cycle of the moon.  What's going on here?  confused.gif 

I fully agree with BushwhackerinPA
 

 

post #64 of 84
Thread Starter 

Good point above!  A good traverse on shaped skis is not usually an edge locked situation.  If the skier chooses to lock onto the edge, the traverse would turn quickly into a curved path to a stop.  What is actually happening in a traverse is the skier is steering their skis straight.   PSIA-W has in it's exam tasks a "targeted" traverse and a "ski design" traverse.  The targeted traverse requires the skier guide their skis in a straight line path toward a chosen target with minimal slipping, whereas a ski design traverse begins on a strongly engaged set of uphill edges and locked into two skinny rail road tracks which turn up hill to a stop.  This requires the skier demonstrate good balance on both uphill edges using the sidecut and de-cambering of the skis.  Both tasks must demonstrate a functional body position which looks very similar with the difference being in the edge control coming from lower legs.

post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post



Bush, 

You are correct, momentum has a great impact on how bent the ski is; this frame is taken at or near apex, where the forces are strongest.  Those forces are capable of bending the skis, and indeed they are doing just that in this picture.  

 

Traversing usually does not involve much momentum, nor large forces, nor bent skis.

 

By the way, this image is of Tanja Poutianen skiing, a woman ... definitely not a guy.
 

 



 It does not take a lot of force to bend a modern race ski. In the Garage I can bend my FIS GS skis the same amount as Tanja with two fingers.

Even at 70 degrees edge angle the ski bend only a few centimeters on a super-hard surface.

The big forces are not bending the skis, they are affecting the underlying surface, thus allowing for more bend in the skis.

 

That is an important difference, becuase in traverses the snow is usually a lot softer than in a race course, which means that in a 70 degree traverse the skis will bend, unless they are really stiff.

post #66 of 84

Originally Posted by Jamt View Post





 It does not take a lot of force to bend a modern race ski. In the Garage I can bend my FIS GS skis the same amount as Tanja with two fingers.

Even at 70 degrees edge angle the ski bend only a few centimeters on a super-hard surface.

The big forces are not bending the skis, they are affecting the underlying surface, thus allowing for more bend in the skis.

 

That is an important difference, becuase in traverses the snow is usually a lot softer than in a race course, which means that in a 70 degree traverse the skis will bend, unless they are really stiff.


Jamt,

I see your point about traversing theoretically across soft snow on a 70 degree incline.  The skis would bend if the snow were truly soft, in a way similar to how they would bend if you were standing on them suspended between two moguls.

 

But... perhaps I am misunderstanding you on another point.  You are saying that the big forces Tanja is producing are affecting the underlying surface (ice) beneath her skis.  By that do you mean that she is compressing that ice so those skis can bend in a way that two fingers would bend them in the garage?

 

 

 

 

post #67 of 84

Sorry but I  definitively love to traverse.

 

I agree with all your points. But allow me just few more.

 

1) I love to traverse wide runs as a manner to prolong the descend;

2) I love to traverse 'cos it allow me to relax a bit and enjoy the view;

3) Even though I'm able to make linking turns down the slopes, some times it's good to traverse, slow down and relax;

4) I do not intend to ski as a pro. I do it(ski) because it is a very pleasant sport,  and I always think in do it in a pleasant way;

5) Who skis with rented ski/boot, keep in mind, suffer a lot with it. Boots  that not fit well, skis without sharp edges...  

 

 

But, believe me, I do my best to not boring the people around me with my traversing.wink.gif

 

 

My thoughts!!

post #68 of 84



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post




Jamt,

I see your point about traversing theoretically across soft snow on a 70 degree incline.  The skis would bend if the snow were truly soft, in a way similar to how they would bend if you were standing on them suspended between two moguls.

 

But... perhaps I am misunderstanding you on another point.  You are saying that the big forces Tanja is producing are affecting the underlying surface (ice) beneath her skis.  By that do you mean that she is compressing that ice so those skis can bend in a way that two fingers would bend them in the garage?

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. In the picture the skis are bent more than the sidecut at that angle, which means she has compressed the snow/ice, which takes a lot of force.

If we have an ideal surface that does not compress, but still holds the ski, the ski will bend according to its sidecut radius at a certain angle. This is not a lot and I can bend the skis this amount with two fingers. You can check this on the floor. On this ideal surface, and any other hard surface the majority of the the total force is moving the body according to the turn radius.
 

 

post #69 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post



But... perhaps I am misunderstanding you on another point. You are saying that the big forces Tanja is producing are affecting the underlying surface (ice) beneath her skis. By that do you mean that she is compressing that ice so those skis can bend in a way that two fingers would bend them in the garage?

 



 

Sorry, I was a bit unclear. In the picture the skis are bent more than the sidecut at that angle, which means she has compressed the snow/ice, which takes a lot of force.

 

 



Yup, he is actually saying that.....biggrin.gif.  

 

Keep on Truckin!

 

post #70 of 84



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post





Yup, he is actually saying that.....biggrin.gif.  

 

Keep on Truckin!

 


Which part did you not understand? Oh, I guess it was the posting guideline.
 

 

post #71 of 84

For me I run a longer than average ski, call it old school or whatever. I enjoy working to make the ski work. If I just have a nice vertical stance in a traverse, yes there is a little turn in the traverse but still edging all the way. Now if I widen my stance a bit and center over the fronts of the ski's, roll the edges a bit or a lot, I can make them do the traverse up-hill turn too a far more extreme level. Bending my ski's with two fingers takes a bit of work. So, does the physical properties of a ski effect what we call a traverse and it's shapes? Around the mountain I guess it would be a skid, jump, absorb, traverse trip to the powder bowls so that would be a true free skiing traverse in my world. But I think that a short run across a groomed trail, say for teaching purposes, would be called an edged traverse, if I was really interested in being technical. 

Less talk more ski. :-) 


Edited by skejunky - 6/15/11 at 5:51pm
post #72 of 84

I’ve never seen anyone traverse so effortlessly and fast while seemingly defying gravity than BB.  Nobody can catch him.  Period.  The lesson is in the steps and the practice is following him (but make sure you’re off all meds and have your doctor’s approval or you will blow up)  redface.gif    

post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Good point above!  A good traverse on shaped skis is not usually an edge locked situation.  If the skier chooses to lock onto the edge, the traverse would turn quickly into a curved path to a stop.  What is actually happening in a traverse is the skier is steering their skis straight.   PSIA-W has in it's exam tasks a "targeted" traverse and a "ski design" traverse.  The targeted traverse requires the skier guide their skis in a straight line path toward a chosen target with minimal slipping, whereas a ski design traverse begins on a strongly engaged set of uphill edges and locked into two skinny rail road tracks which turn up hill to a stop.  This requires the skier demonstrate good balance on both uphill edges using the sidecut and de-cambering of the skis.  Both tasks must demonstrate a functional body position which looks very similar with the difference being in the edge control coming from lower legs.


Good old PSIA and their crazy arbitrary exam tasks... duck.gif

post #74 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post




Good old PSIA and their crazy arbitrary exam tasks... duck.gif


I wouldn't call these tasks arbitrary at all Metaphor!  They are used to reveal specific skill development in edging, and balance.

 

post #75 of 84

Traversing is what seperates the weekend warrior and the local on a lot of runs.  A must have skill.

post #76 of 84

I think the question of whether traversing is a skill or a tactic is a flawed premise. Traversing is both a skill and a tactic. The skill is, at its base, a fairly basic one. I get four year olds to traverse all the time without teaching them specifically how to do it. However, the real issue with traversing is how it is used tactically. Is it used as a functional skiing tactic, or is it used as a defensive skiing tactic. A skier using traverses that cover the whole trail width, who are barely in control when making their turns, are most definitely using the traverse skill as a defensive tactic. However, I use traversing in a functional manner on almost every single run. And it's not big long traverses across open bowls. Its ten foot long traverses to go from one roller to another, or use a double fall line in one way or another. I realize that I am not skiing on a tabletop, so my turns should not be absolutely uniform going down the hill. My line can and does meander. Not because I'm unable to ski certain lines or pitches, but because I choose where my skis go, and use a variety of skills to make them go there. If I need to do a short radius, long radius, traverse, medium radius, traverse, short, short short... to ski the line I choose, that is what I'll do. If I wanted to do the same exact turn time after time all the way down the hill, I'd race. cool.gif

post #77 of 84

hmmm, not that I've been on a lot of race courses, but none of the ones I have been on involved a series of identical turns.

 

Definately agree that traversing is both a skill and a tactic with appropriate and inappropriate applications.

 

Since this is an instructional forum, how do you use traversing in a lesson setting to get somewhere?  (not physically on the hill, but somewhere new in the client's skill set)

 

Here's an example:

 

In an intro to bumps, I'll have the group traverse back and forth across a bump run, imagining that they have to do it in a tube - their legs can get longer and shorter but their head can't pop up or they'll hit the top of the tube.  Like that.

 

Others?

post #78 of 84

Also, incidentally, looking forward to practicing the traverse across the 70 degree slope.  Think I'll rope up first, though.

post #79 of 84

Talking about technique: If I were in a tough situation, say traversing steep ice to get to a different location on the hill, I'd turn my upper body to face almost straight down the fall line. That way if the edges break loose, I am in a good position to control the slide  and not rotate the upper body. I would basically be skiing my Arlberg method reverse shoulder position. I can see this may not be taught this way any more, and I can guess why, but I think it is the strongest skiing for that terrain and conditions. Traverse and controlled sideslip was taught extensively, over a period of years, back in the day. Not being on the hill, I'm not sure how I'd distribute weight between uphill and downhill skis to get max edge hold. I think more weight downhill, like 75 / 25%.

 

OTOH, technically speaking, if the snow is soft and edge hold is not an issue, I'm facing more where I'm going, weighting both skis, relaxed and getting around the mountain.

 

On tactics: IMO, not to get back to Traverse 101, though it is one of my favorites, you don't drop below the existing traverse onto your new traverse to snake someone's line. It's a breech of manners, like intentionally cutting someone off. It's low class. It's just not done. No one can make you stop doing it, but you will isolate yourself from certain people and groups. Consider the long run.

 

Also, It makes more traverse tracks which ruin the slope in packable snow, and it is impatient and selfish. If the traverse is too strenuous for you, take a different way down, please, we're cool.

 

On etiquette: Oh, and wax your skis so you don't hold up 20 people.

post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

I think the question of whether traversing is a skill or a tactic is a flawed premise. Traversing is both a skill and a tactic. The skill is, at its base, a fairly basic one. I get four year olds to traverse all the time without teaching them specifically how to do it. However, the real issue with traversing is how it is used tactically. Is it used as a functional skiing tactic, or is it used as a defensive skiing tactic. A skier using traverses that cover the whole trail width, who are barely in control when making their turns, are most definitely using the traverse skill as a defensive tactic. However, I use traversing in a functional manner on almost every single run. And it's not big long traverses across open bowls. Its ten foot long traverses to go from one roller to another, or use a double fall line in one way or another. I realize that I am not skiing on a tabletop, so my turns should not be absolutely uniform going down the hill. My line can and does meander. Not because I'm unable to ski certain lines or pitches, but because I choose where my skis go, and use a variety of skills to make them go there. If I need to do a short radius, long radius, traverse, medium radius, traverse, short, short short... to ski the line I choose, that is what I'll do. If I wanted to do the same exact turn time after time all the way down the hill, I'd race. cool.gif


 

the thing is to everyone reading this thread.

 

IT was started because TDK6 was advocating traversing as the only valid way to ski off piste terrain. Saying "linking turns is not what I strive for"

 

post #81 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Hmmm.....I assumed it was a Herd of Gapers.


I guess I just assumed it would be Gaggle of Gapers. Go figure....


 

 

post #82 of 84

I get a kick out of skiing back and forth over the crest of a spine. It's skiing down a fall line with a constant changing reference to gravity. My turns are linked in teh general direction of the fall line but each turn FEELS like a turn up hill from a traverse. For me, traversing in a form that allows me to turn in ANY direction as terrain or whim dictates is important. being able to manage speed and angle of traverse is crazy important in Big mountain skiing. 

 

One could argue that a traverse is not true "straight" running. It is an uphill turn with an insanely large radius. If you aren't running on flat skis straight down the hill then the edges are influenced and you have to manage that to control speed and destination. just as you do when linking turns. The radii are just a LOT bigger.

post #83 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtguide1 View Post

I get a kick out of skiing back and forth over the crest of a spine. It's skiing down a fall line with a constant changing reference to gravity. My turns are linked in teh general direction of the fall line but each turn FEELS like a turn up hill from a traverse. For me, traversing in a form that allows me to turn in ANY direction as terrain or whim dictates is important. being able to manage speed and angle of traverse is crazy important in Big mountain skiing. 

 

One could argue that a traverse is not true "straight" running. It is an uphill turn with an insanely large radius. If you aren't running on flat skis straight down the hill then the edges are influenced and you have to manage that to control speed and destination. just as you do when linking turns. The radii are just a LOT bigger.



I was doing that with Dookey a couple days ago on Drifter at Northstar.  I had no idea that I was working on my Big Mountain skiing.  

I just think its fun and a great way to break the monotony while we're waiting for snow. 

 

post #84 of 84


Debating traversing and skiing is a little like debating breathing.

 

- "You shouldn't hyperventilate"

- "Well, sometimes I need to breathe heavily. I'm doing a lot of work."

- "That means you're not in shape. Really, you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. Get in shape."

- "You're an idiot."

- "You're the one who's breathing heavily. Hyperventilating!! Get a grip. Totally lame. I can't believe I'm talking to you."

- "You can't even talk without stopping to breathe. Learn circular breathing. Really you should know that by now, and you call me lame..."

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

the thing is to everyone reading this thread.

 

IT was started because TDK6 was advocating traversing as the only valid way to ski off piste terrain. Saying "linking turns is not what I strive for"

 

Sorry, that's not the thing. Just consider giving up that point. The more you try to be right about it, the sillier it is.  Even if you are right, or not. It doesn't matter.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post

Some traverses are more pleasant than others.

155403.jpg

Great post. A series of insane traverses. Definitely no striving for "linked turns".

So, were those in the "Pleasant" category? Or, pleasant once they were finished?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
I’ve never seen anyone traverse so effortlessly and fast while seemingly defying gravity than BB.  Nobody can catch him.  Period.  The lesson is in the steps and the practice is following him (but make sure you’re off all meds and have your doctor’s approval or you will blow up)  redface.gif   

 

Bob talked about this at A-Basin on that long East Wall traverse. (I know, we were lame, and we went sideways instead of linking down.)

There's a technique that's described in the DesLaurier book.

 

You slightly step uphill with your ski at an angle, tail further out, - like a wedge. Step onto that ski, and you now will accelerate slightly down, and step up with the downhill ski. Keep repeating. It's more work, but you will go much faster and keep or gain altitude depending on how much you step.

The funny thing is that here's a place where a wedge is actually faster.

 

 

Here's video of traversing. Sheesh, 6 minutes going sideways. That place must be lame.

Wait, it's Alta...

Well, they should do something about that mountain. Making people traverse = making people not ski. Let's have them read this thread!

Missing are the kamikaze traversers with sharpened and uncalibrated poles pushing you aside, the deep woop de doo's that almost kill you, and the general insanity of it all.

 

posted by mailtrap22                                                                                                                http://youtu.be/1KzI5RSWezo

 

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching