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Manual transmission, we hardly knew ye - Page 3

post #61 of 201


One hour and 6 minutes to go on the east coast smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindriftView Post


 

The hive mind of the market has spoken. And manual is off the island (mostly). 

 

The market voted.

post #62 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

 


With which engine Phil ?  I'm looking at the Jetta Sportwagen now with the 2.0 diesel engine vs the higher HP (but less torque) 2.5.  Consumers reviews I have read show many are getting in the high 40's on the highway for mileage with the 2.0 and mileage like yours in the 2.5.   The cost of diesel here is lower than gas here right now, and it sure would be nice to have the range, and we can't get anywhere here w/o jumping on the highway so that looks like a great "around here and ski trip vehicle." 

 

I have the 2.0 diesel, I haven't gotten NEAR high 40's for any extended time..according to the on board trip computer, I could measure against the odometer next time I refill. IMHO, the diesel is a "no cost option" over the 2.5. You will get all you pt out extra in better fuel economy and much better resale and in the meantime you are enjoying a superior motor. 
 

 

post #63 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilpugView Post

Not the case, some are auto manuals. jk.gif

 



True enough....

 

but they are still both doing something I'd rather do myself. Way to much intervention going on with cars now. I don't want it locking my doors or turning on my headlights or chiming enlessly when I drive down my driveway unbelted. Enough already!

 

And now some even park for you too....

 

post #64 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairToMiddlin View Post

 

I went to a VW dealer today, looking for a manual turbodiesel (50ish mpg on the highway covers over a multitude of sins).  Didn't find one, but I did discover that the new, somewhat crappier 2011 Jetta will fit a pair of skis if you lay down the split rear seat.  How do I know that, you ask?  It turns out my skis are 178cm, and standing on the Long Leg, I am 177.8 cm, or 5'10".  I popped the trunk in the showroom model, folded the rear seat forward, and climbed in.  Stretched out, it was roomy, almost comfortable minus a few bumps at the hinge of the seat.  I might even be able to fit a pair of 190cm (6'2", if anyone is calculating) DPSs in there and still have room for a third person in the backseat.  If they can find me a manual, I'll get a spare set of rims and spoon some snows on them.  I suppose I should probably keep a some beer in the boot tho', just in case...

 

Here ya go !

 

Fly into CVG crash with us for a day or two, grab the car and drive home  biggrin.gif (bring the beer though.....dry county here)

 

http://www.vwfairfield.com/NewVehicleSearch  search their new vehicle inventory.
 

 

post #65 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

Despite my traditionalist reservations I'm pleased with the automatic transmission; its compatibility with cruise control has saved me from a number of speed traps.


I've never had a problem with cruise and a stick.  Then again, I've used it only with Saab turbos, which have an extremely broad power curve; I rarely downshift to accelerate at 75mph.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

BMWs are all about driving pleasure.


Not to drift too far, but I can't just let this slide.

 

For a few people, BMWs are all about driving pleasure.

 

For the vast majority of their owners, BMWs are all about a status symbol.

post #66 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post



I have the 2.0 diesel, I haven't gotten NEAR high 40's for any extended time..according to the on board trip computer, I could measure against the odometer next time I refill. IMHO, the diesel is a "no cost option" over the 2.5. You will get all you pt out extra in better fuel economy and much better resale and in the meantime you are enjoying a superior motor. 
 

 



Pretty much the way I figured it too Phil......THANKS !

post #67 of 201

For snow tires, keep an eye on CL for extra rims. I picked up a set of Mille Miglia rims WITH snows (that had a season left on them) for $150.00. Now is the time to start shopping. 

post #68 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

The Diesel is available in the Jetta  and Golf, why not in the Tiguan or Passat?
I think that's a matter of production line development. The Golf TDI only got rolled out last year, long after the Jetta. I'd expect the Passat to be next, but who knows.

Also, how old is your TDI? I was unhappy with the Rabbit's mileage until I hit around 12,000, at which point I guess the rings were set and all that kind of stuff. With a 2.5 I'm now getting 33 highway, 24-ish in town, which I think is OK for the ride I'm getting. I knew the 2.0 would get better mileage, but it was my very first new car and I was tired of poking around in my old Jetta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

I don't want it locking my doors or turning on my headlights or chiming enlessly when I drive down my driveway unbelted. Enough already!
I like the lights on automatically (paranoid about other drivers) and having the car tattle on my unbelted passengers (my car, my rules), but I'll bet you'd like it even less if the stereo turned its volume up and down depending on your speed. That drives me bonkers; there is indeed a limit to where I want technology to go. The day my car won't let me parallel park badly...well, I guess that's the day I'll buy a scooter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

I've never had a problem with cruise and a stick.
I've just been in the wrong gear sometimes. Cruise works silkily when the car can shift itself down as the hill steepens or vice-versa.
post #69 of 201


Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Not to drift too far, but I can't just let this slide.

 

For a few people, BMWs are all about driving pleasure.

 

For the vast majority of their owners, BMWs are all about a status symbol.


For some, true, but I think for the money, there are better status symbols, but none of them drive nearly as well cool.gif.   Here in the Bay Area a 3-series is practically as common as a Corolla and has just as much of a status symbol cachet.  

 

post #70 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post




Also, how old is your TDI? I was unhappy with the Rabbit's mileage until I hit around 12,000, at which point I guess the rings were set and all that kind of stuff. With a 2.5 I'm now getting 33 highway, 24-ish in town, which I think is OK for the ride I'm getting. I knew the 2.0 would get better mileage, but it was my very first new car and I was tired of poking around in my old Jetta.


 


Mine is a 2010, I have had it about 14 months and currently have 24K on her. Don't get me wrong, I am not disappointed with the mileage I am getting but more surprised with the mile other people are saying they are getting. 

 

post #71 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post


Quote:


For some, true, but I think for the money, there are better status symbols, but none of them drive nearly as well cool.gif.   Here in the Bay Area a 3-series is practically as common as a Corolla and has just as much of a status symbol cachet.  

 


Most high-end gear serves dual purposes: for the enthusiast, there's an incremental increase in performance which justifies the added expense, and for the poser it's a signal he's able to afford to buy extra value he'll never need. It's like buying the lightest sleekest bicycle in order to ride to the grocery store, or buying a Hummer for--well, for just about anything. And now I will confess (and it will surprise no one) that in competent hands a BMW will generally drive and handle better than my Rabbit, but the Rabbit has the best performance I could afford, and 99% of the time I wouldn't notice the difference. I spent all my Beemer money on law school and went straight into the public sector, so I have no one to blame but myself.
post #72 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post




Mine is a 2010, I have had it about 14 months and currently have 24K on her. Don't get me wrong, I am not disappointed with the mileage I am getting but more surprised with the mile other people are saying they are getting. 


Hmm. Leadfoot? More aggressive/fun driving? I know I'd get better mpg if I could just drive a little more gently in town. rolleyes.gif
post #73 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post




Mine is a 2010, I have had it about 14 months and currently have 24K on her. Don't get me wrong, I am not disappointed with the mileage I am getting but more surprised with the mile other people are saying they are getting. 




Hmm. Leadfoot? More aggressive/fun driving? I know I'd get better mpg if I could just drive a little more gently in town. rolleyes.gif


Not really, I usually drive 75ish on the highway and very light around town. I am not a stop light grand prix type driver. 

 

post #74 of 201

Thanks for the link, I'm bookmarking it because it's so frustrating trying to identify cars with a manual. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

 


Bull.  That's just another apocryphal story to explain the phenomenon, no more true than the MPG story.  The truth is simpler, people just don't buy them.  Here are some stats on cars available with both a stick and an auto in the US and the manual transmission take rate (from here: http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_could_get_with_a_stick/index.html)

 

Acura TL: 5%

Audi A5: 10%

Buick Regal: <10% est.

Hyundai Tucson: 1.5%

Lexus IS 250: 1%

Mazda 5: 6%

Porsche Cayenne (and the GTS model): 1.3% (7.2% for the GTS)

Subaru Outback: 10%

Toyota Camry: 3%

 

That's a pretty wide cross section of cars, leaving out sports cars (which are going to have a higher than average take rate).  The Subaru and the Audi are the only ones that manage to crack a 10% take rate (Buick's deluding themselves if they think they'll get a 10% take rate on the manual Regal, IMO).  There's no concern here for besmirching of reputations, most people simply don't want to drive a stick anymore.



 

post #75 of 201
Oh well. Blame it on the Boss Nova.
post #76 of 201

Agree it's a pain about fewer standards around, but that doesn't mean zero. I have a 97 4-Runner straight 4 manual with 192,000 that's going strong, verifiably saved my life once, never had any repairs to trans, clutch, or even the engine cover off. Toyota Tacoma's are still available in manual, always have been. Ditto with their retro SUV, the FJ. Also own a Honda Ridgeline truck, only available in auto, agree with Phil about the new ones being nice, but I have yet to find a SUV/truck auto - including ours - that won't decide to shift or not shift in the wrong place on fast hills, like I-80 between Tahoe and Sac. Haven't seen any with Ferrari paddles or Porsche sports-shift, either, guess I frequent the wrong showrooms. wink.gif

post #77 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

For some, true, but I think for the money, there are better status symbols, but none of them drive nearly as well cool.gif.   Here in the Bay Area a 3-series is practically as common as a Corolla and has just as much of a status symbol cachet.  


Sorry, but as far as I can see, they're usually the Ultimate Posing Machine.

 

What's the difference between BMWs and porcupines?

post #78 of 201

UL, mine is the twin-turbocharged 3.0 liter inline 6. biggrin.gif

 

The best I can really do on the highway is about 25mpg.

post #79 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post

Sorry, but as far as I can see, they're usually the Ultimate Posing Machine.

 

What's the difference between BMWs and porcupines?

Maybe you should try to drive one ;-)  No, seriously, you can have plenty of cars with more power, but none would feel better for the same powrer.  (That statement does not apply to DSloan's car, it is a screamer, my friend has one, and it almost had too much power for my taste).  What I really like about them is that even the lowest models have enough power to be fun, but the road manners are fantastic, you just enjoy driving it.  
 

 

post #80 of 201
Actually, I suspect The Dad's right--most BMW owners are driving for the status. As for being posers--I don't think they even know what they're posing for. Doesn't being a poser mean having some idea of who you're pretending to be?
post #81 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

Maybe you should try to drive one ;-) 


I have.  But you're missing my point.  Or I'm failing to express it well.

 

There is no doubt that they make very good cars.  If they made a 5-series wagon with a Diesel, AWD, and a stick, I probably wouldn't be able to resist it, no matter how much owning one would make me cringe.  (And it's nice to tie back into the actual thread.)

 

There is no doubt that many enthusiast drivers choose to buy them.

 

But there is also no doubt that they have expanded their market share of late by getting beyond their core market of enthusiasts and selling status instead.  Indeed, some model lines -- the X6 comes to mind, and to a lesser extent, the 7 series -- have no other apparent purpose.

 

This is not to say that you're not a good driver, or that you don't buy them for the "right" reasons.  You are, however, a remnant of their historical base, not their current.

 

 

 

 

(Oh -- and the answer is: Porcupines have pricks on the outside.)

post #82 of 201

I will disagee with the majority of what the dad thinks about BMW's and their customers. BMW started its reputation here in the US with great sports sedans like the 2002 and the 530i in the 70's then expanded to a full line european line company. For the past 10 years or so BMW has done the best jod of straddling the line of performance AND luxury. Their dealer network is top notch and BMW as a company does the best job of taking care of the customer with their 4 years of complete maintenance something that MB, Audi, Volvo all have dropped (and some have re added). Resale and high residuals on BMW's is one of the best of the euro premium lines due to the fact of the maintenance. 

 

Too bad this is over the weekend...I am sure Finndog would be chiming in here, he is a BMW owner. 

post #83 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

I will disagee with the majority of what the dad thinks about BMW's and their customers. BMW started its reputation here in the US with great sports sedans like the 2002 and the 530i in the 70's then expanded to a full line european line company. For the past 10 years or so BMW has done the best jod of straddling the line of performance AND luxury. Their dealer network is top notch and BMW as a company does the best job of taking care of the customer with their 4 years of complete maintenance something that MB, Audi, Volvo all have dropped (and some have re added). Resale and high residuals on BMW's is one of the best of the euro premium lines due to the fact of the maintenance. 

 

Too bad this is over the weekend...I am sure Finndog would be chiming in here, he is a BMW owner. 

Oh, I'm sure he'll jump in on the thread in the AM.

 

So, as a BMW driver, here's what I like. My car is effing fast. It accelerates quickly. If I want to, I can beat most other vehicles on the road. I don't often do that (insurance premiums, you know). It hums at about 80 in 5th gear. 6th . . . well, nevermind. It hugs the road, so I don't have to decelerate on turns (unless there's someone else in the car with me who might throw up). It's AWD, so not only does it do all of the above, but also it gets me up and down the mountain - er, hill (I live in PA) without many issues other than clearance. And, like I said, I live in PA, so it's not like clearance is really an issue anyway. As far as being a BMW, well, it does all of the above AND it looks good AND it's comfortable. What isn't to like?

 

Okay, so I put premium gas in it and pay European service fees. But if that's what I want to spend my money on, so be it . . .

 

And for those times that I really want to climb some rocks, I have my '96 Jeep Cherokee with the 6.5 lift on it (see the Car Talk thread).
 

 

post #84 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

I will disagee with the majority of what the dad thinks about BMW's and their customers. BMW started its reputation here in the US with great sports sedans like the 2002 and the 530i in the 70's then expanded to a full line european line company. For the past 10 years or so BMW has done the best jod of straddling the line of performance AND luxury. Their dealer network is top notch and BMW as a company does the best job of taking care of the customer with their 4 years of complete maintenance something that MB, Audi, Volvo all have dropped (and some have re added). Resale and high residuals on BMW's is one of the best of the euro premium lines due to the fact of the maintenance. 

 

Too bad this is over the weekend...I am sure Finndog would be chiming in here, he is a BMW owner. 


Actually, agreed on all fronts.

 

None of which contradicts my perception that the average Bay Area BMW driver bought the car for status rather than performance, not withstanding that Alex, DSloan, Finndog et al don't fit that stereotype.

post #85 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDad View Post


Actually, agreed on all fronts.

 

None of which contradicts my perception that the average Bay Area BMW driver bought the car for status rather than performance, not withstanding that Alex, DSloan, Finndog et al don't fit that stereotype.


 

That's probably true. And for more than the Bay Area. That's why they make the 328i and the 1 series (shudder).

post #86 of 201

OK, since we've given up any pretense of hanging onto the OP's original question, and since I can't tolerate too much love for any ski/car/other adult toy, here is the three word problem with BMW's since say 1998 (their high water mark IMO): Drive By Wire. I've owned one, original 2002, have had extended drives (as in sharing trips with friends or relatives) in a slew of others, all except the 6 series. To rephrase Phil, they've done the best job out there of keeping performance high for less skilled drivers with $$$. But at a cost of their souls. What used to be a shockingly immediate connection to the mechanicals, with the most precise steering and throttle I know (including Porsches) is now electronically numbed-out. Subtle, nothing dramatic. These guys are great engineers. But there's now a 2011 hint of turbo lag in their steering, their pedals, everything that used to make them special. Sure, BMW's are still smooth and capable and probably the best high performance sedan you can also use for the family. And significantly better numbers because of the various DBW bits to correct driver error, so if you're all about numbers, ignore what I've just said. But not the same immediacy of a decade ago.

 

So The Dad has it right for the wrong reasons. Not a car for status anymore, precisely because it's notoriously easy to flog around at silly speeds. Count the number at Whole Foods in Beverly Hills on a weekday morning, after the kids have been dropped off...duck.gif

 

 

post #87 of 201

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post

That's probably true. And for more than the Bay Area. That's why they make the 328i and the 1 series (shudder).


Well, for performance are we talking go-fast, handling, driving dynamics?  Sure the 328i isn't a rocket, but at 230hp and 200 ft-lb of torque it's no slouch.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no suspension, steering, etc. differences between the 328 and 335, just the engine and goodies.  If so, then it sounds like you are saying performance = go-fast.  So in that case, the 135i doesn't have that covered, really?  0-60 in under 5 seconds (or just over that mark if you go by BMW's numbers)?  If you ask me, anyone looking down their nose at both the 328 and 1 series is all about status over performance.  But hey, no one asked me.

 

post #88 of 201

I think people thumb their noses at the BMW for all the wrong reasons. See, once upon a time a lot of college girls bought North Face jackets as a status symbol, but that didn't make North Face a bad performing jacket, their trouble started when they started making jackets for college girls...   As far as I know BMW still makes precious few cars for the poseur crowd.   Sure, poseur crowd buys them, but that does not make them phony cars...

 

Just tonight I saw a lady driving while hugging her poodle (true story)... she was driving the 335i coupe.   I drove the same car once, it is a screamer, and I am sure that poodle lady is not using even 30% of the car's performance, if you drive it properly the poodle will be throwing up in no time; I actually dont know how you can use more than 50% of the performance without getting a ticket, maybe DSloan can share the secret...   But whatever, I digress...   Beyond's point is well understood, yet, I actually think it is a good thing- now people have an option to rely on the electronic nanny if they want to to tune out, and they can still push the car when they wanted to.  BTW, 325i (or what is it now- 328i?) is fully adequate in the fun to drive department.  

 

BTW, the main problem with these cars is maintenance, it is shockingly (and I mean it, shockingly) expensive...  So every time I get my oil changed, or brakes done, or something else breaks, I hear my car sing the old L'Oreal ad slogan- "Because I am worth it"...

post #89 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

 


Well, for performance are we talking go-fast, handling, driving dynamics?  Sure the 328i isn't a rocket, but at 230hp and 200 ft-lb of torque it's no slouch.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no suspension, steering, etc. differences between the 328 and 335, just the engine and goodies.  If so, then it sounds like you are saying performance = go-fast.  So in that case, the 135i doesn't have that covered, really?  0-60 in under 5 seconds (or just over that mark if you go by BMW's numbers)?  If you ask me, anyone looking down their nose at both the 328 and 1 series is all about status over performance.  But hey, no one asked me.

 

Ah, I knew I was going to get railed for my shudder comment. All in good fun, I s'pose.

 

So, yes, going fast is important for me in terms of performance. Well, let me be more accurate. I like to go faster . . . well, faster. The best time on the 1 series is 0 - 60 in 6.0 seconds (that's the 130i - not bad). My car goes 0 - 60 in 5.2. Okay, not that much of a difference, but when you compare that to the 6.9 - 10.2 second acceleration rates in the other 1 series Bimmers . . . Then the 328i xDrive takes 6.8 seconds to get up to 60. When I step on it, I like the car to go. That's not all there is to performance, I know, but it makes me smile. So, we could get into a discussion about torque and how cars with smaller engines - like the 1 series - have a ton of it so they can still accelerate (good job, engineers) and make people like me happy. I guess that's also a factor in performance. But the truth is, I also like muscle in my car. I want a side of beef with my torque (sorry, it's late). Maybe that's about status . . . maybe it's about raw power. Not really sure, but I like it. biggrin.gif

 

Truthfully, I have been impressed with all the cars in the BMW line. They are well made, fun to drive, and comfortable. I don't look down my nose at any of them. I'm just slightly in love with mine (sorry, beyond) and we were headed that direction with the thread anyway . . . well, after we hijacked it from FairToMiddlin.
 

 

post #90 of 201

Doesn't 135i have the same engine as the 335i, the twin-turbo?   So 135i gotta be faster, since 1-series is a lighter, smaller car.   A quick Google search gives the 0-60 time for 135i as 4.7 sec.  That's bleeping fast for a status symbol. 
 

P.S. I dont know of any BMW that goes 0-60 in more than 10 sec... 10.2 sounds awfully long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post



Ah, I knew I was going to get railed for my shudder comment. All in good fun, I s'pose.

 

So, yes, going fast is important for me in terms of performance. Well, let me be more accurate. I like to go faster . . . well, faster. The best time on the 1 series is 0 - 60 in 6.0 seconds (that's the 130i - not bad). My car goes 0 - 60 in 5.2. Okay, not that much of a difference, but when you compare that to the 6.9 - 10.2 second acceleration rates in the other 1 series Bimmers . . . Then the 328i xDrive takes 6.8 seconds to get up to 60. When I step on it, I like the car to go. That's not all there is to performance, I know, but it makes me smile. So, we could get into a discussion about torque and how cars with smaller engines - like the 1 series - have a ton of it so they can still accelerate (good job, engineers) and make people like me happy. I guess that's also a factor in performance. But the truth is, I also like muscle in my car. I want a side of beef with my torque (sorry, it's late). Maybe that's about status . . . maybe it's about raw power. Not really sure, but I like it. biggrin.gif

 

Truthfully, I have been impressed with all the cars in the BMW line. They are well made, fun to drive, and comfortable. I don't look down my nose at any of them. I'm just slightly in love with mine (sorry, beyond) and we were headed that direction with the thread anyway . . . well, after we hijacked it from FairToMiddlin.
 

 



 

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