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Manual transmission, we hardly knew ye - Page 2

post #31 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post




I see you love in a "gated community" or is that the "Sloan Compound"? wink.gif

 

 

That is some serious force that tree came down with, it is tough as $hit to bend a Yakima X-bar.

 

Sloan Compound, of course.  biggrin.gif
 

 

post #32 of 201



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

There are some very good autos, Mercedes for example, their autos are as good as the stick are bad...MB made some of the worst manual transmissions ever. The truck Tog rented for Mothers Day at A-Basin actually had a 3-Speed auto...THREE speed, gawd, I thought they went the way of carburetors. The true DSG type trannies can also be fun and actually faster than a true manual, Ferrari is proving that.



I don't care if they are faster, that means nothing to me in a street car. I like the interaction and feel a true manual provides. I like a more basic platform, no need for all the extra bells and whistles for me. Truly, less is more as far as cockpit extras go. Sadly more and more the stripped level has more than I want.

 

post #33 of 201

I only had to replace an auto trans once.  In a previous Caprice Wagon.  I had put a couple of hundred thousand Kms on it, and abused it somewhat.  I don't know how many times around the clock the previous owner had on it, but he did use it for a few years as a NAPA parts delivery car.  The replacement tranny cost me $750 bucks with a 1-year warranty (Rebuild would have been $1500, and I figured I was not going to keep the car more than another year).  Buddy had to pay more than that to get his clutch swapped out every 90 k on his Kmart caricon13.gif (now there's a poor design for you).  Of course this is on a basic full size fleet/police type vehicle like a caprice, I'm sure the fancier trannies cost a lot more to replace/rebuild.

 

Resale value is a funny thing.  The value of your vehicle is always very low, but just try and buy a vehicle in working condition with a safety check (legal requirement here that certifies the brakes/ball/joints/lights/horn etc. are all ok before you can license it) for that price!

post #34 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

One dealer I asked told me that the lack of standard shift availablity had more to do with attaining fleet MPG levels than any other single factor. 


This would only be arguably true in the last couple of years, when 6+ speed automatics have entered the market -- previously, manuals invariably provided at least a 5-10% bump in rated mileage.  And even now, it's more or less a wash.

post #35 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post



 



I don't care if they are faster, that means nothing to me in a street car. I like the interaction and feel a true manual provides. I like a more basic platform, no need for all the extra bells and whistles for me. Truly, less is more as far as cockpit extras go. Sadly more and more the stripped level has more than I want.

 

Says the man who just bought a WRX ;) 

 

LOL, apples to apples, I would rather have a stick, the Miata is a prime example. 
 

 

post #36 of 201

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

One dealer I asked told me that the lack of standard shift availablity had more to do with attaining fleet MPG levels than any other single factor. 


I don't believe this for a second.   In cars with a manual transmission available, the take rate on most of them in the US is tiny, and it's even now starting to drop in Europe from what I've read.  The one and only reason manuals are going away is because most people don't want to buy them.

 

And even in cars that do get better mileage with the auto vs. stick, it's usually only 1 mpg better in my experience.  Not enough to make a difference in the CAFE numbers.

 
post #37 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Says the man who just bought a WRX ;) 

 

LOL, apples to apples, I would rather have a stick, the Miata is a prime example. 
 

 



She's a stripper .....just pay for performance basics

 

 

post #38 of 201

The reason autos are replacing manuals is because of the number of people who cannot drive a stick, buy a stick, burn out the clutch, and blame the car/truck, especially when they go 4x4/off-roading and get stuck.  In order not to have any of that besmirch their reputation, they just don't offer the clutch.

 

Re engine availability on some cars/trucks.  There are cases where the added torque of the diesel engine or other more optional engine would be too much for the rest of the driveline, and hence it won't be offered in some combinations.

post #39 of 201

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

The reason autos are replacing manuals is because of the number of people who cannot drive a stick, buy a stick, burn out the clutch, and blame the car/truck, especially when they go 4x4/off-roading and get stuck.  In order not to have any of that besmirch their reputation, they just don't offer the clutch.

 


Bull.  That's just another apocryphal story to explain the phenomenon, no more true than the MPG story.  The truth is simpler, people just don't buy them.  Here are some stats on cars available with both a stick and an auto in the US and the manual transmission take rate (from here: http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_could_get_with_a_stick/index.html)

 

Acura TL: 5%

Audi A5: 10%

Buick Regal: <10% est.

Hyundai Tucson: 1.5%

Lexus IS 250: 1%

Mazda 5: 6%

Porsche Cayenne (and the GTS model): 1.3% (7.2% for the GTS)

Subaru Outback: 10%

Toyota Camry: 3%

 

That's a pretty wide cross section of cars, leaving out sports cars (which are going to have a higher than average take rate).  The Subaru and the Audi are the only ones that manage to crack a 10% take rate (Buick's deluding themselves if they think they'll get a 10% take rate on the manual Regal, IMO).  There's no concern here for besmirching of reputations, most people simply don't want to drive a stick anymore.

post #40 of 201

Interesting.  How many people have to want it to make it worth the manufacturer's while to offer it?

post #41 of 201

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Interesting.  How many people have to want it to make it worth the manufacturer's while to offer it?


That's a good question, one I think the car manufacturer's are struggling with right now.  Especially when trying to sell one car in all markets, and you have places like Europe where the manual transmission take rate is far higher.  I'm having trouble finding data right now, but I had thought I'd read it was something like 75% (but dropping).

 

post #42 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

 


Bull.  That's just another apocryphal story to explain the phenomenon, no more true than the MPG story.  The truth is simpler, people just don't buy them.  Here are some stats on cars available with both a stick and an auto in the US and the manual transmission take rate (from here: http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_could_get_with_a_stick/index.html)

 

Acura TL: 5%

Audi A5: 10%

Buick Regal: <10% est.

Hyundai Tucson: 1.5%

Lexus IS 250: 1%

Mazda 5: 6%

Porsche Cayenne (and the GTS model): 1.3% (7.2% for the GTS)

Subaru Outback: 10%

Toyota Camry: 3%

 

That's a pretty wide cross section of cars, leaving out sports cars (which are going to have a higher than average take rate).  The Subaru and the Audi are the only ones that manage to crack a 10% take rate (Buick's deluding themselves if they think they'll get a 10% take rate on the manual Regal, IMO).  There's no concern here for besmirching of reputations, most people simply don't want to drive a stick anymore.


That's abysmal. Especially when you consider how much fun it is to drive cars like the Audi A5 (S5 would be better, though . . .) or Porsche Cayenne. Sigh. Oh well. I am happy being in that smaller percentile and thoroughly enjoying my car.

 

post #43 of 201

I am not sure I would want to drive a Cayenne in a stick every day.

 

here is a list of cars that you might not know were (at one time) available in a manual tranny...

 

Land Rover Discovery

Dodge/Plymouth Caravan

Mercedes 300SL

Mercedes 300E (W124 body)

Jeep Grand Cherokee

 

Please feel free to add your own

 

post #44 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

The true DSG type trannies can also be fun and actually faster than a true manual, Ferrari is proving that.


Perfect RPM matching during SMOOTH downshiffs that only take milliseconds mean faster lap times too...
 

 

post #45 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

I am not sure I would want to drive a Cayenne in a stick every day.

 



Yeah, but for the days you do . . .biggrin.gif

post #46 of 201

We just gave up and got an automatic Subaru Impreza.  It's the our first non-stick, other than the boat we got from my father-in-law when he gave up driving.

There was a recent auto column in our paper about choices that are no longer available.  The car companies say no one wants standards because no one buys them.

Well DUH, if you don't make them no one will buy them.

post #47 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post




You can have both the slushbox and the stop and go traffic

 

I'll pass on both nonono2.gif


 

 



Rossi: Stop and Go Traffic, is a fact of life in the Northeast. Thankfully it's not every day for me, and never for you being the hermit you appear to be...

 

post #48 of 201
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




 

BTW resale value is a pretty dumb thing to judge whether or not a repair on a car or not. If you want to drive it keep driving it.

 

How much is the truck's value you each time you dirve it? how much is the value for month?

 

We live in such a throw away culture that most people dont realize that the value of their cars to them is more than the value it is to resale to someone else.

 


Good point.  The repairs are coming pretty steadily now though, and coupled with 16 mpg I think I'd rather deal with a car payment, 30-50 mpg, and less concern of standing on the roadside peering into the engine bay with a flashlight.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post


 

 





That is still my all-time favorite car. I had mine 10 good years, then gave it to my brother; putting a baby into a car seat in a two-door auto is a bitch. I miss it. If I were Saab, I would totally pull a VW New Beetle update for the 900. I'm not even sure there is a Saab at this moment, though?


That's a great idea!  I'd take that over a New Beetle, Mini, or Fiat 500.  open up the back and toss the skis or bike right in.  Not quite as good at tailgating on the beach at A-basin as your truck, though...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSloan View Post




That's abysmal. Especially when you consider how much fun it is to drive cars like the Audi A5 (S5 would be better, though . . .) or Porsche Cayenne. Sigh. Oh well. I am happy being in that smaller percentile and thoroughly enjoying my car.

 

 

You and Phil have it right, it IS enjoyable, that's why I'm looking for another one.  I didn't have much luck today, seems the cars I want are hundreds or thousands of miles away, ah well.

post #49 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairToMiddlin View Post

 

You and Phil have it right, it IS enjoyable, that's why I'm looking for another one.  I didn't have much luck today, seems the cars I want are hundreds or thousands of miles away, ah well.



Yes, but is it on the way to CO? You could pick it up on your way to ABasin for Father's Day. biggrin.gif

post #50 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by FairToMiddlin View Post



  I didn't have much luck today, seems the cars I want are hundreds or thousands of miles away, ah well.



You know what that means....ROAD TRIP!!!!! 

 

BTW, anyone who is saying they are getting 50 MPG in a new generation TDI ain't tellin the truth. The most I have gotten on a trip (total tank average) was 43 and that was trying to see what I could get. I kept it in the mid 70's MPH

post #51 of 201
Fair, if you're still considering the Jetta, just know that VW TDI performance is great. It's powerful, lively, clean & efficient, handles like a v-dub. You will find exactly 4 cupholders (I can hear the German engineers saying "vee don't need no shtinking cupholders!!), but it's a great line of vehicles. I really wanted the hatchback on my 2009 Rabbit, but I test-drove the Jetta TDI at the time and loved its performance. I scared the salesman a little, but whatever. Now they've got a Golf TDI, so I pretty much know what my next car will be.

Despite my traditionalist reservations I'm pleased with the automatic transmission; its compatibility with cruise control has saved me from a number of speed traps. "Drive" gearing gets nice mileage on the highway and downtown. "Sport" gearing is great for quicker acceleration, climbing hills, and moderate downhills, and I mostly use the 5-gear tiptronic for engine braking. With snow tires this past winter this thing was the bomb. I liked the feeling of being connected directly to the transmission with a stick but it took no time at all to adjust and I've never looked back.
post #52 of 201

A small dose of the reality here (for the record, I never drove an automatic, all our cars in the family have been sticks so far, so I am well adjusted to the pleasure of rowing gears).  However, there is a pretty good chance our next car will be an automatic.  BMW is the last car maker you'd accuse of sacrificing the driving pleasure, in fact BMWs are all about driving pleasure.  No 3-ton truck has any right to hug the road like our new (very used) bare bones X5 does, and having a manual transmission has not much to do with it.  But BMW is now putting an 8-speed auto in all its new cars and in many cars it is the only option.  I'd actually take a good 8-speed auto over a 6-speed gearbox any day, it will be smoother, quieter and more fuel-efficient because two of those tall gears are going to be overdrive.  A friend who drove the new M3 said that driving that car was like a videogame- its manumatic was head and shoulders above the stick, and this guy burns serious rubber.  Those things just evolved a lot in the recent years...  I still find it very irritating that the market does not give us a choice. 

 

But, the really amusing thing is that here we have people that are super-happy to embrace the newest tip/tail rocker, 5-point sidecut, reversecamber/nocamber, whatever-else-you-can-think-of ski, yet, they insist on driving manual transmission cars.  You dont ski 205cm pencil skis just because driving them properly takes proper skills, you go for the latest rocker design that frankly makes a lot of conditions super-easy and "automatic".  Shouldn't it be the same with cars?  

post #53 of 201



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

 

But, the really amusing thing is that here we have people that are super-happy to embrace the newest tip/tail rocker, 5-point sidecut, reversecamber/nocamber, whatever-else-you-can-think-of ski, yet, they insist on driving manual transmission cars.  You dont ski 205cm pencil skis just because driving them properly takes proper skills, you go for the latest rocker design that frankly makes a lot of conditions super-easy and "automatic".  Shouldn't it be the same with cars?  



No

 

And I do still get out on older "pencil" skis as well as new stuff. But with cars, for me, I've got no interest in "the paddle"  nonono2.gif

And wait till you see the replacement cost on that new auto....

post #54 of 201
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post
 

No

And I do still get out on older "pencil" skis as well as new stuff. But with cars, for me, I've got no interest in "the paddle"  nonono2.gif

And wait till you see the replacement cost on that new auto....

If I get out on pencil skis, it is only for a stunt, in comparison with the new gar they suck, plain and simple.   And the last time I checked replacing clutch is a much more common repair than a new automatic transmission...   I drive a stick, so I am a hypocrite.


 

 

post #55 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

No

And I do still get out on older "pencil" skis as well as new stuff. But with cars, for me, I've got no interest in "the paddle"  nonono2.gif

And wait till you see the replacement cost on that new auto....

Yes, and some will drive both shift and pencil sticks. But 'paddle'? What's that? My gear shift is right where my stick used to be. And my Wabbit's price was in line with its class; I think I'd have had to pay extra for a stick. As for alexzn's Beemer, well, in that case I believe you get what you pay for, and if he loved the incremental increase in performance enough to have paid the price before, he'll be glad to pay it again. And with reasonable skill (I did get a day at Bondurant a while back) I can pull about as tight a turn as he can with no problem. cool.gif
post #56 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

No

And I do still get out on older "pencil" skis as well as new stuff. But with cars, for me, I've got no interest in "the paddle"  nonono2.gif

And wait till you see the replacement cost on that new auto....



Yes, and some will drive both shift and pencil sticks. But 'paddle'? What's that? My gear shift is right where my stick used to be. And my Wabbit's price was in line with its class; I think I'd have had to pay extra for a stick. As for alexzn's Beemer, well, in that case I believe you get what you pay for, and if he loved the incremental increase in performance enough to have paid the price before, he'll be glad to pay it again. And with reasonable skill (I did get a day at Bondurant a while back) I can pull about as tight a turn as he can with no problem. cool.gif



Paddle shifters are manual autos, regardless of where they might be located.....

 

post #57 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post





Paddle shifters are manual autos, regardless of where they might be located.....

 


Not the case, some are auto manuals. jk.gif

 

post #58 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

 I still find it very irritating that the market does not give us a choice. 


 

The hive mind of the market has spoken. And manual is off the island (mostly). 

 

In so many ways, it is time to let the myth of manual go. 

 

For virtually all drivers for virtually all practical uses, modern automatic just kills it. Better mileage. More responsive than most drivers are under most circumstances. Reliable. etc. 

 

The odds of any but one or two people on this board handling any manual on hilly snow nearly as well as (let alone better than) an average prudent driver using a modern automatic, decently proportioned AWD and modern snow tires are slim indeed. But I digress...

 

The market voted. And IMO it came to a reasonable conclusion regarding manual. What bugs me more than the lack of manual options is the relatively limited number of "good" full time AWD systems out there. Now that makes a really big difference in safety and handling where I drive.

post #59 of 201



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilpugView Post

 

 

BTW, anyone who is saying they are getting 50 MPG in a new generation TDI ain't tellin the truth. The most I have gotten on a trip (total tank average) was 43 and that was trying to see what I could get. I kept it in the mid 70's MPH



With which engine Phil ?  I'm looking at the Jetta Sportwagen now with the 2.0 diesel engine vs the higher HP (but less torque) 2.5.  Consumers reviews I have read show many are getting in the high 40's on the highway for mileage with the 2.0 and mileage like yours in the 2.5.   The cost of diesel here is lower than gas here right now, and it sure would be nice to have the range, and we can't get anywhere here w/o jumping on the highway so that looks like a great "around here and ski trip vehicle." 

 

dSloan....which engine and what does yours do on the highway?

 

..........and a word on automatics.  Three years back when SC and I replaced two of our vehicles we decided we never wanted to pay a mechanic again and will opt to sell our vehicles when they reach about 75K (now) and avoid manuals because of the possibility of having to replace a clutch (or at sale time someone saying .....uh....getting close to clutch time no ?)  Change the tires at the end of their life span and sell the vehicle.  Our 08 Rav and Truck have only dropped 3-4K from our purchase price and Craig's list here doesn't even show any 07 - 09 Ravs available in our area used.  Works for us. 

 

Anyway we opted for automatics on both despite having some really interesting terrain here in northern KY to drive around on.  First automatic in a truck for me (ever) and I love it. With a posi-traction rear axle and electronic four wheel drive the vehicle does well on the unstable wet clay we have here and crawls over rocks on light off road just fine.  I use the truck here on the farm to drag trees (winter firewood) up hills that would easily be considered single black diamond terrain without issues.  No automatic transmission problems there. 

 

If it wasn't for the leaky gasket between the engine and trans-axle on my Saturn (yep...for those of you who know the car....it's back on the road with almost 400,000 miles on it) I could say there are no automatic "transmission" problems there.  An hour once a year to cover the joint with some gooey rubbery stuff and I'm back in business ........at 33 mpg or so.

 

SC's Mustang GT convertible.....different story.  12 miles up to Walmart on a nice day with the stick......a LOT of fun.

post #60 of 201

Part of the main reason that we don't have a "choice" is simple costs.The cost to federalize a drivetrain (engine/transmission combos) is in the 6-7 figures, so in many cases while the drivetrain might be available in other markets, the U.S. costs could be prohibitive. My counter argument...using VW as the example again, the 2.0T is available in a manual in Beetles, Jettas, Golfs but only in automatics in the Tiguan, why? The Diesel is available in the Jetta  and Golf, why not in the Tiguan or Passat? In the A3,, the TDI is only available with the DSG, why? 

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