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The correct way to "Snowplough": Question to instructors - Page 2

post #31 of 52



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post

If you don't use ankle flex to bring you forward then the next joint up the kenetic chain that moves in the forward direction is the hips. (once the knees are straight they, hopefully, don't go further forward! wink.gif )

When the hips are used 'get forward' all sorts of bad things happen in your skiing.

So I'm sticking with the ankles as the best way to get forward. I.e. Move the COM forward.



Interesting. But I respect your opinion offcourse. How many skiers ski with their leggs fully extended when they are centered? Since the boots have a bit of forward lean in them we are flexed at the ancles, knees and hips as a default. It would be interesting to see a demo of the move you are refering to.

 

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post



Fixed it for you. You're welcome
 

 


Fixed what?
 

 

post #33 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post


I will play!  I love quizes!

 

1) This skier demonstrates the typical problem arising from the edge/pressure tact.  He has rotated his hip over the right ski in an attempt to turn left.  You will also notice his hands and shoulders have rotated as well.  The problem this creates is it reduces the edge angle on the right ski while increasing the edge angle on the left ski, therefore causing the left ski to dominate the fate of this skier who will continue in a straight line in the direction the left ski is aiming.

 

2) This skier in order to turn left has multiple options, three of which would "increase" deflection under his right ski, including increase edge angle, or increase pressure, or increase steering angle OR he could "reduce" edge angle under his left ski and twist his left tip to the left.  The key here is understanding what has to happen to make a wedge turn initiate and which option will most efficiently lead the skier toward the goal of parallel turning.  It makes sense to some to use the mechanics present in a parallel turn initiation and use the wedge as training wheels to teach these advanced movements.

 

3)Both of these positions present very large snowplows which dominate the speed control aspect of any turning and tend to negate rotary movements and any inside leg steering.  They inhibit any ability to turn the feet and represent braking, defensive, fatiguing skiing.  Some would suggest this skier buy some contemporary ski equipment and get into the 21st century and update their technique to reflect advances in equipment and methodology.

 

 

How did I do?

 


We have a player. Great. Ok, here we go.

 

1) I will start with a few questions. Dont you think that they picked a very good skier for the photos for the book in question (assuming they are out of a instructional book)? Dont you think they picked the very best? Based on this assumption dont you think its kind of out of the question that he would be skiing with "extreme hip and upperbody rotation"? However, you are right about everything you say though except for one minor thing. He is not turning left but turning right. So everything you said is the other way arround. He is not rotated. He is countered. His hips are not out over his outside ski. His outside ski is out from under his hips. This is the way skiing was thaught in the good old days. Strong counter and strong outside ski pressure.

 

2) To me it looks like the slope is very steep. Thats why he is wedging so wide. Its a demo offcourse and back then everything was a bit exaggurated. Like the counter in the onter pickture.

 

3) Dont you think that the wedge in the right photo (counter photo) looks more narrow? To me it looks that way.
 

 

post #34 of 52

Perhaps the question should be what muscles do you use to bring your COM forward.  Pulling your feet back with your feet in ski boots attached to yoru skis will close the ankle joint, but it's not the same as the move you would use to close that ankle joint if you were just holding your foot out in front of you and bring your toes towards your knees. Trying to close the ankle joint by the typical lift my toes muscular effort does not work that well in ski boots.

post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

If you get caught in the back seat for example you cannot get out of that position by flexing your ancles. Your feet are pressing against the rear cuffs of your boots, exactly what they are designed to do. Then you open your knee joint. 


June 6, 2011

 

Hi Bears:

 

Let us take a few moments for quite, reverent remembrance for all the soldiers/sailors/airmen who gave so much at Normandy 67 years ago, so that we may enjoy so much.

 

Hi TDK:

 

Agreed.

 

Being just a run of the mill skier, I don't know if this is correct or not, but in the example you gave (in the back seat), I would agree that one would need more than one's ankle to get oneself back into balance.  I remember a balance drill which Robin Barnes had us try to do and I got caught in the back seat big time (what else is newnonono2.gif?).  I threw myself forward to get back into balance and Robin seeing this complimented me on that move (and for that situation).  So, the knees, hips and upper body do come into play and probably are more "efficient" than the ankle when one is performing some "grand" re-balancing move.  However, may I assume that for smaller fine tuning of one's balance that the ankle is probably the more appropriate and more important joint?  I could be completely off base here and my assumption is just based on my knowledge and experiences.

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



 



Interesting. But I respect your opinion offcourse. How many skiers ski with their leggs fully extended when they are centered? Since the boots have a bit of forward lean in them we are flexed at the ancles, knees and hips as a default. It would be interesting to see a demo of the move you are refering to.

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post



 


Charlie, I have been thaught that the great benefit from alpine ski boots is that it "restricts" your ancle movements. You play your CoM agains your BoS to stay balanced and shift pessure to the part of the ski that you want pressured. If you get caught in the back seat for example you cannot get out of that position by flexing your ancles. Your feet are pressing against the rear cuffs of your boots, exactly what they are designed to do. Then you open your knee joint. Extend your legs. It can be a good thing to stand up on the floor and fool arround with these movements on the floor. I said earlier that your ancle is located the furthest away from your CoM. And the closest to your front boot cuffs. And with almost no mass. Now you can see that in order to create the same ammount of shin pressure you need to apply much more force to flexing your ancle because you have no momentum and you have no mass. Insted the mass is wroking against you. Far away with great leverage. You only have muscle strength to perform the action. IMHO offcourse.




your ankle is the joint that causes the quickest most efficient Center of mass balance movement, as well letting us absorb a fair bit. If your in the back seat flexing your ankle will most diffidently bring you forward. There is no doubt about that. I could show it with video taken in my living room. these are not opinions these are facts based in REAL studies of bio mechanics. Every point made in the above is just flat out wrong.

 

If it is not the ankle joint what is it? you never really said. You just posted a bunch of meaningless stuff about our ankle being far away from our COM and not having any mass....

 

post #37 of 52

whoops

 

 

post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




We have a player. Great. Ok, here we go.

 

1) I will start with a few questions. Dont you think that they picked a very good skier for the photos for the book in question (assuming they are out of a instructional book)? Dont you think they picked the very best? Based on this assumption dont you think its kind of out of the question that he would be skiing with "extreme hip and upperbody rotation"? However, you are right about everything you say though except for one minor thing. He is not turning left but turning right. So everything you said is the other way arround. He is not rotated. He is countered. His hips are not out over his outside ski. His outside ski is out from under his hips. This is the way skiing was thaught in the good old days. Strong counter and strong outside ski pressure.

 

2) To me it looks like the slope is very steep. Thats why he is wedging so wide. Its a demo offcourse and back then everything was a bit exaggurated. Like the counter in the onter pickture.

 

3) Dont you think that the wedge in the right photo (counter photo) looks more narrow? To me it looks that way.
 

 


Here's a question for you TDK6....Why are we critiquing antiquated skiing, equipment, and technique?  Are we still teaching this way?  Also, how can you deduce the slope pitch from this photo?  How can we tell which way the skier is turning?  I know I have seen many students trying to turn in a snowplow by weighting the down hill ski only to rotate and edge lock the uphill ski and go straight.  In their defense, they were doing exactly what they were instructed to do, placing the predominance of their weight over the down hill ski?

 


Edited by bud heishman - 6/6/11 at 3:44pm
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Here's a question for you TDK6....Why are we critiquing antiquated skiing, equipment, and technique?  Are we still teaching this way?  Also, how can you deduce the slope pitch from this photo?  How can we tell which way the skier is turning?  I know I have seen many students trying to turn in a snowplow by weighting the down hill ski only to rotate and edge lock the uphill ski and go straight.  In their defense, they were doing exactly what they were instructed to do, placing the predominance of their weight over the down hill ski?

 



- You need to ask the person that posted the photos.

- The same elements yes: upper body counter and outside ski pressure.

- I cant, but to me it looks that way. Why would he wedge that wide if it was not very steep? As I said before, maybe it was a exagurated demo.

- Its easy to tell which way the skier is turning. Back when the photos were taken they always took a very strong countered position.

- You are right, that is totally wrong but common. Every instructor ever teached beginners has had these students. One remedy is a much more flat slope. They need to be rid of fear and dont try to turn by twisting, edging and rotating. 

- Yes, thats what they were dooing. Im not asking your opinion on it if its right or wrong, just to analyze what it is. For good or bad.

 

Thanks for playing, as always.

post #40 of 52



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

your ankle is the joint that causes the quickest most efficient Center of mass balance movement, as well letting us absorb a fair bit. If your in the back seat flexing your ankle will most diffidently bring you forward. There is no doubt about that. I could show it with video taken in my living room. these are not opinions these are facts based in REAL studies of bio mechanics. Every point made in the above is just flat out wrong.

 

If it is not the ankle joint what is it? you never really said. You just posted a bunch of meaningless stuff about our ankle being far away from our COM and not having any mass....

 


It would be interesting to see a demo.

 

If you are sitting in the back seat your legs are going to be totally extended before your ancles will be flexing. Im not saying that you could not move yourself up by pressing your toes against the top of the boots but even if you did you would still be in the back seat when you reached end of range because your leggs are still flexed 90deg and your CoM is aft. You must get your CoM forward of your BoS in order to really flex your ancles. Kind of simple mechanics.
 

 



oooops

 



 

 

post #41 of 52
I posted those photos to show the old form of the snow plow, not as a modern form of skiing with modern equipment. It was a history lesson for the OP to be used as a starting point for a discussion of modern wedge progressions. His question was about wedge/snow plow progression.
post #42 of 52

Whether intentionally or otherwise, the OP ask for certified instructors

post #43 of 52

And thats what he has hellside. Not that cert level is helping a lot here.

Honestly a bunch of half true assumptions are being made here. The ankle is certainly an important joint but dorsi flexing alone has it's limitations, just like extending the knees and hips do. What's important to understand is all of these joints have a role to play in balancing on a moving platform. If the CoM is aft, plantar flexing the ankle will certainly drive us even further aft. But dorsi flexing the ankles alone may not be enough to pull us Fore, especially if we are already pretty far aft. It might only add pressure to the tail and blow your ACL. That's why the knees and hips must participate in most recentering movements.Even moving the arms fore could be added as a way to bring 18% of your body mass fore.  Which is more efficient? No one answer will work since there are so many variables involved. All are important and all need to participate at some level.

post #44 of 52

Leave it to JASP to bring a level head to this conversation in pointing out how the body must work in concert to bring our balance in and out of play . As far as the ankles being a crucial tool towards our balance it's because it is at a crucial point of the kinetic chain of movements that keep us in and out of balance. Being at the pivot point of two long levers, one being the skier and the other being the ski it is an important asset to use to fine tune your balance using the least  muscle movement to attain that goal .

 

 

But back to the 'Snowplough'. A change in velocity  and direction can be made using all rotary , edging  or pressure to make it occur but  Wedges  are best done when a proper blend of these skills are brought into play as are necessary . Same goes for balancing . Use a blend to keep our balance. Some take away from other skills when used less than efficiently or can be used as a considered tradeoff to deal with terrain or conditions. For me it seems best to consider ways to use less muscular effort while taking advantage of how our body is built and moves.


Edited by GarryZ - 6/6/11 at 11:39pm
post #45 of 52

To synopsize, a snowplow tends to be on the larger side of the converging ski stance and a "gliding wedge" of the smaller size.   With the evolution of ski equipment (ie: shorter skis with deeper sidecut) turning has become easier requiring less effort allowing skiers to link round smooth turns down the hill rather than taking a stemming, stepping, traversing, contorted, segmented path to the bottom.

 

The larger the convergence the more braking action is created and the more any turning efforts must come from edge and pressure.

 

The smaller the convergence the less speed control derived from the convergence and the more easily the skis can be turned using a muscular steering effort.  Speed control comes from choosing a path which sheds speed by continuing across the fall line.  "skiing a slow enough line as fast as possible" is the mindset or intent here.

 

 

The real interesting difference comes as the skier progresses toward parallel turning and how the basic skills learned aid in the transition toward parallel turning.  I would argue, how we choose to accomplish speed control and our intent for turning will determine whether our path to parallel is defensive (turn to NOT go there) or offensive (turn to GO there).  One method will tend to stall in sequential movements while the other will facilitate simultaneous movements.  One will avoid acceleration while the other will embrace it.  One method will fatigue the body more quickly the other will not.  

 

Both methods will get you down the hill, one fights gravity the other plays with it!  Your choice!

post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post

I posted those photos to show the old form of the snow plow, not as a modern form of skiing with modern equipment. It was a history lesson for the OP to be used as a starting point for a discussion of modern wedge progressions. His question was about wedge/snow plow progression.



Thanks for stepping in and clarifying that. The problem you must be aware of is that in all the european languages I know there is no special word for a narrow snowplow. I think its safe to assume that no modern european country is stuck in the 50s wide snowplow/wedge. They have all modernisized over the years. They are also using modern equipment. So whenever you are talking with europeans the following rule applies: snowplow = wedgiing. Its a language thing. When I joined here I also used the word snowplow. I dont anymore when I speak or write in english but most europeans are not aware of this.

 

post #47 of 52

 

Quote:
So whenever you are talking with europeans the following rule applies: snowplow = wedgiing. Its a language thing. When I joined here I also used the word snowplow. I dont anymore when I speak or write in english but most europeans are not aware of this.
 

For English, press -"1", Spanish-"2", European - "3".rolleyes.gif

post #48 of 52

Garry and Bud. The wedge/snowplow is thaught to students for three main reasons. It gives a wide base of support (wide stance), it gives speed controlling properties (our edges become engaged and cause friction) and it makes it possible to initiate a turn (the skis are pointing at an angle to where you are hedding, skidding angle, and if both skis are not causing equal ammount of friction the ski with more friction will winn the battle and take you in the direction its pointing). If you reduce the wedge you will accellerate but at the same time you will lose some of your turning properties of your skis because the skidding angle is also reduced. Its all up to your intent what you want to do and what you can handle. Want to go fast and wide, narrow your wedge. Want to slow down and turn tighter, widen the wedge. The next step from wedging would be to bring your skis parallell at the end of the turn when you traverse (oooooo, dangerous word....). This is the reason its easy to bring your skis parallell at the end of the turn. The classic approach was built arround this proggression.

 

I think the word "wedge" was a very successfull marketing trick. Student: hi I want a lower end lesson but I dont want to snowplow! Woman at the desk: hi and wellcome, thats good to hear because in our ski school we dont use the oldfachion snowplow anymore, we have a new progression called the gliding wedge, can you be ready in an hour for a double lesson?

post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

The next step from wedging would be to bring your skis parallell at the end of the turn when you traverse (oooooo, dangerous word....). This is the reason its easy to bring your skis parallell at the end of the turn. The classic approach was built arround this proggression.

 

 

Question TDK6:  

 

1) Why is it easy to bring your skis parallel at the end of the turn using your method?  and how do you do this?

 

2) Once you finish the turn parallel, how then do you initiate a parallel turn entry using your method?  The answer to this question should really highlight the difference between the merits of the two pathways to parallel.

 

 

As I said earlier, I believe the primary difference between our methods is how we choose to accomplish speed control and how this affects the mechanics of the turns.  


 

 


Edited by bud heishman - 6/7/11 at 7:12am
post #50 of 52

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 

Question TDK6:  

 

1) Why is it easy to bring your skis parallel at the end of the turn using your method?  and how do you do this?

 

2) Once you finish the turn parallel, how then do you initiate a parallel turn entry using your method?  The answer to this question should really highlight the difference between the merits of the two pathways to parallel.

 

As I said earlier, I believe the primary difference between our methods is how we choose to accomplish speed control and how this affects the mechanics of the turns.  

 


Excellent questions Bud. I will try to answere them.

 

1) It doesent speed you up since you are going across the slope. So its easy to bring your skis parallell.

 

2) The thing is that its not my method. These are only methods in general. The classic proggression would have been wedge - stem - parallell. The stem still exists and is useful in some cases but most ski schools dont use it anymore. The parallell turn was initiated by up-unweighting. Today the basic parallell turn can also be initiated by opening the knee joint bringing the CoM forward and causing the skier to fall off in the fall line. However, the most usual way to learn how to ski parallell today is to slowly morph the wedge into edge locked carving.

 

post #51 of 52

After reading Bud's last post I think this thread has covered the theoretical aspects. Wide wedges and levering while wedging have a limited place in the larger picture. The fact that the OP is trying to perform wedge turns on an intermediate run (euro or american is irrelevent) suggests he's skiing to a final form. But only one that at best has a very limited scope of appropriateness. We could argue all summer over the edge pressure verse steering bias and solve nothing. IMO five pages, ten pages, or even twenty won't change anyone's mind.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/7/11 at 10:37am
post #52 of 52

The solution is for the OP to continue to try new and different ideas and after giving each method it's due consideration, he should settle on what works best for him. Not what the culture around him say, or what any one of us here at Epic say.

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