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Top Certs - Page 4

post #91 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post

Tbh, I'm not really sure what advantage having the ISIA stamp has anyway, I did some extra courses on top of my NZ L3 in order to qualify for it and I have yet to see any benefits. I had thought it would make working abroad easier, but in Argentina it's not recognised, despite them being also part of the ISIA.


I don't know how it is now, but 10 & 20 yrs. ago having an ISIA stamp pretty much guaranteed the royal VIP treatment at most areas in the Alps.  I remember at  Le Grand Montet, as soon as I flashed my ISIA card the liftie whisked me to the front of the line biggrin.gif .  In many places skiing & some trains were free & if not, cost was greatly reduced.  I think it must have been the ISIA card that got me that treatment, because I can't believe it was my charm alone wink.gif .  Other than that, I don't know of any other advantages.

 

Took it with me to Canada a few years ago, & got a bit of a discount, but it was pretty inconsistent.  It seemed like there was no set policy there.

 

 

As far as raising the LIII standard, from my POV this would require stripping all current LIII's of their pins.  The standard & level of understanding is what it is & always has been.  I have seen an odd year once in a decade or so in a given division, where maybe some folks slid through or it was thought to be an easy exam.  If you look at pass rates over the history of PSIA, I think you will find that the percentage of success at LIII has remained pretty consistent at around 30-35%.  The only way to raise the standard would be to add a LIV... IMO.  The requirements for a PSIA LIII, are nowhere near the requirements of the highest level of certification in a country like Austria for instance, where certification may require snow assessment, route finding & crevasse rescue skills.

 

JF

 

 

post #92 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

I don't know what the "good idea" part of it is. 

 

 

BK


I concede that I have my own ideas of what an L4 cert would be, It starts with the premise that there is a level of instructional skill and skiing skill that is beyond the current L3 standard. That should be easy to swallow. We can see that in examiners and demo team members. Whether this level of skill is useful for those who do not have a trainer role is debatable. I agreee that it is not needed. I have enjoyed being trained by people who have that level of skill. I would like to see the general public have more opportunities to get trained by people with this level of skill because I believe these people teach better lessons than I do. My view is that although the ability to train the trainer should be a significant portion of the "L4" process, the program should be intended specifically for those who do not aspire to PSIA staff positions specifically to increase public access to this level of lesson quality.

 

If one views the certification process as a means to gain pay raises, prestige, seniority, etc., then I agree this is a bad idea. I've already said that this is a bad idea for many reasons. I think it's a good idea only because it could provide a road map to get from the "now you are ready to learn to ski" level that L3 certs are at when they get their pin to the level that PSIA staff get to. Right now, unless one wants to become a PSIA staff member, one must figure this out on their own. That some have done so means it is doable without a road map. I contend that having a road map makes the process easier. In 18 years of teaching I have seen the PSIA certification road map work for myself and other pros. I don't see any reason why this idea can't work for moving beyond L3. Moving beyond L3 is something all L3s should be doing anyway. Some of us may be fighting age to maintain skiing performance, but all of us should be able to improve teaching performance until either the mind starts to go or the body is just too worn out to teach. Paying for assistance in this area won't make sense for most L3s, but it will make sense for some and the rest of us can use the road map for free.

 

All of the other negatives about impacts on ISIA cards, existing certs, division finances, division hiring procedures, etc. do not have to be a part of the proposed program. But we do have to acknowledge that are increasing costs and decreasing benefits as we move up the skill ladder if only because of economies of scale. Investing in accelerating the growth beyond L3 will only make sense for a small percentage of L3s who are already a small percentage of pros. If one sees the possibility of benefits from an L4 cert then these negatives are simply challenges to be over come. If one does not believe in the benefits of this idea then these things are great reasons not to proceed and one should take comfort that the list of reasons is very long.

 

 

post #93 of 101

Just on the freestyle thing -

 

In Canada, most ski schools will also recognise and pay instructors who hold CFSA certifications. Although they are not directly affiliated with the CSIA their content is good and follows a sound progression, and makes for good results. Skiiers such as Mark Abma and TJ Schiller have gone through coaching from both CSIA and CFSA pros, as well as the national mogul team. 

 

The CFSA runs courses in Air and Moguls coaching as well as a park and pipe certification.

http://www.freestyleski.com/page.php?la=en&pa=member&id=coaching

 

This gives some downloads, including an overview of their structure. 

 

As I said before, most ski schools will employ Instructors with these certs, as long as they hold a current CSIA/CSCF certification as well. 

post #94 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Possible.  I know there has been issues over the second language and avalanche requirements.  I also agree that the real value of ISIA is questionable.



ISIA is back at level 3 with the following demands:



ISIA minimum standards CSIA prerequisites.  If you wish to apply and receive your ISIA (International Ski Instructor Association) recognition, please read the information below:

A minimum number of 300 hours of education are required to be eligible to obtain the ISIA stamp including two mandatory modules: AST (Avalanche Skill Training) minimum or more and first aid certificate from a credible organization such as Red Cross, Ambulance St-Jean or the equivalent.

Option 1: Level 4 + Course Conductor status+ mandatory AST module or equivalent + first aid

Option 2 : Level 3 + mandatory AST or equivalent + first aid

Additional education hours to make up for 300 hrs of education.

 

 

post #95 of 101
Thread Starter 

interesting to hear the CSIA 3's are again eligible for the ISIA stamp... i started this thread as in Europe the associations are currently working towards mutual recognition of qualifications and i was curious what the rough numbers of top certs are in NA. The ISIA Stamp (L3) and Card (L4) were originally going to be the template for minimum standards but after some major arguments the ISIA is pretty much irrelivent in Europe. the primary Alpine countries France , Austria and Italy are driving the qualifications. Currently Brit L3's get a Stamp and L4's a Card

 

The Euro ski instructor associations are trying to come up with a Euro Pro Card that is acceptable to teach anywhere in Europe, a fine goal but it is looking like this card will be the top cert in most associations which broadly relates to the L4 criteria of canada, britain, france...  The technical exams are very high level skiing, a Mountain Security module administered by High Mountain Guides , teaching exams and crucially passing the EURO speed test...

 

In 10 years only 150 brits have passed this test which is a GS run on a FIS homologated course and the pass rate is set by a pace-setter who runs the course and his time is adjusted, using a handicap reflecting his skill level. The adjusted time is meant to be equivalent to the time in which the current fastest skier in the world rankings would have run the course. Males must get within 18% (females 24%) of the adjusted time to pass.

 

As a Brit L3 i have very little ability to work within Europe and have very large restrictions as to where i can work and for how long. In order to have full flexibility in where i can work i must be an L4 and pass the Eurotest, to my knowledge only a very few people over 40 have ever passed and a handful in their thirties... 

 

And you guys think you have it hard ;) 

post #96 of 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post

Tbh, I'm not really sure what advantage having the ISIA stamp has anyway, I did some extra courses on top of my NZ L3 in order to qualify for it and I have yet to see any benefits. I had thought it would make working abroad easier, but in Argentina it's not recognised, despite them being also part of the ISIA..


An ISIA stamp or equivalent is massively useful. This past season, the big Australian and New Zealand resorts wouldn't even look at me, despite being an l2 CSIA, l1 CSCF, and L1 CASI. The standard response was "we're sure you're a wonderful instructor, but we have more than enough applications from level 3s to fill our needs." However, if I had the ISIA stamp (or just the l3), the southern hemisphere would have been my oyster.

 

At this point though, I've decided to make money instead - and that means teaching skiing is out of the question. But it would be a nice option to be able to do a teaching vacation in a few years.

post #97 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


An ISIA stamp or equivalent is massively useful. This past season, the big Australian and New Zealand resorts wouldn't even look at me, despite being an l2 CSIA, l1 CSCF, and L1 CASI. The standard response was "we're sure you're a wonderful instructor, but we have more than enough applications from level 3s to fill our needs." However, if I had the ISIA stamp (or just the l3), the southern hemisphere would have been my oyster.

 

At this point though, I've decided to make money instead - and that means teaching skiing is out of the question. But it would be a nice option to be able to do a teaching vacation in a few years.



Its not ISIA....its the CSIA 3 and higher cert.  That is one of the benefits of Interski.  We get noticed, and when you apply for a job with the CSIA Creds, it matters.

 

 

 

post #98 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


An ISIA stamp or equivalent is massively useful. This past season, the big Australian and New Zealand resorts wouldn't even look at me, despite being an l2 CSIA, l1 CSCF, and L1 CASI. The standard response was "we're sure you're a wonderful instructor, but we have more than enough applications from level 3s to fill our needs." However, if I had the ISIA stamp (or just the l3), the southern hemisphere would have been my oyster.

 

At this point though, I've decided to make money instead - and that means teaching skiing is out of the question. But it would be a nice option to be able to do a teaching vacation in a few years.

As Skidude said, would it have been different having your level 3 and not having the ISIA stamp? I'd say most schools would treat it the same, I know that in some of the major resorts in NZ the pay rate is the same for level 3s with ISIA and without.

 

This said, the other day at Valle Nevado I did get a discounted pass with it, apparently I could probably have got a freebie if I had spoken to the ski school there instead of just the ticket desk.
 

 

post #99 of 101

Australia is similar to NZ....pay is on the level, not the ISIA stamp or not. 

And I know a fair few instructors who work down under (OZ) with me and they hold a CSIA 2, they just have to provide their own visa, and be prepared to be bottom of the pile for work.

 

Quote:
However, if I had the ISIA stamp (or just the l3), the southern hemisphere would have been my oyster.

 

Not entirely true, I had a friend with ISIA who had to do the hiring clinic at Treble Cone NZ, so I would say it's where you apply, OZ is easier to get a job as there is a larger demand for instructors, with larger ski schools and more business. 

 

 

 

Quote:
At this point though, I've decided to make money instead - and that means teaching skiing is out of the question. But it would be a nice option to be able to do a teaching vacation in a few years.

 

Making money is possible from instruction, sure you're not gonna make a million bucks, but I earn around AU$30 an hour and can do upwards of 40 hours a week....not bad for teaching skiing man!! 

 

post #100 of 101


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post

As Skidude said, would it have been different having your level 3 and not having the ISIA stamp? I'd say most schools would treat it the same, I know that in some of the major resorts in NZ the pay rate is the same for level 3s with ISIA and without.

 

This said, the other day at Valle Nevado I did get a discounted pass with it, apparently I could probably have got a freebie if I had spoken to the ski school there instead of just the ticket desk.
 

 


When I applied to southern hemisphere ski schools, they were looking for ISIA equivalency. Doubt it was important to have the stamp if you had equivalency, such as a CSIA level 3. I assume a PSIA level 3 was equally valued as it was on the ski school employment site lists an ISIA stamp equivalent. So I guess the stamp itself may not be important, but having the skill level to be able to obtain the stamp is. (ie equivalency.)

 

As for arranging your own visa then applying to jobs in a foreign country with no guarantee of employment--I preferred the more certain path of consulting and enjoying the summer in Vancouver, the most beautiful place on earth (ask anyone who lives here--they'll tell you that. duck.gif). :P Also, it's been nice to learn how to inline skate and develop over the summer. Another ski season in a row would have probably killed me! 

post #101 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post


 


When I applied to southern hemisphere ski schools, they were looking for ISIA equivalency. Doubt it was important to have the stamp if you had equivalency, such as a CSIA level 3. I assume a PSIA level 3 was equally valued as it was on the ski school employment site lists an ISIA stamp equivalent. So I guess the stamp itself may not be important, but having the skill level to be able to obtain the stamp is. (ie equivalency.)

 

As for arranging your own visa then applying to jobs in a foreign country with no guarantee of employment--I preferred the more certain path of consulting and enjoying the summer in Vancouver, the most beautiful place on earth (ask anyone who lives here--they'll tell you that. duck.gif). :P Also, it's been nice to learn how to inline skate and develop over the summer. Another ski season in a row would have probably killed me! 




Yeah, I'd say it was more the skill level of being a full cert that matters, rather than being ISIA. I only got my L3 on my 3rd season in NZ, so it's def possible to work there as a L2.

 

Fair enough, year round ski instructing isn't for everyone, some days I certainly yearn for summer, but I'm not going to change anything soon, not really sure I can go back to a proper job after being paid for skiing around for 5 years! And what fun is certainty? I came down to South America without a visa, lost my initial job due to a volcano, and stil ended up having an amazing time and found a place (Portillo) that I want to keep coming back to for years.

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