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level 3 instructor - fitness level? - Page 3

post #61 of 69
Quote:
Squaring out the life curve isn't a new idea nor is it a mystery how to hang onto your skills well into retirement age.

 

^ Dat be da TRUTH! 

 

Although the eyes don't work as well, the ears don't hear quite as well & the old injuries nag a little more, if you continue to "use it" you will not "loose it".

 

JF

post #62 of 69
Thread Starter 

Wow! I'm surprised this thread's still alive. Interestingly, it looks like the pendulum has swung from primarily "technique trumps physical fitness" to "you really need to be fit to get the level 3". Must have something to do with off-season training time. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

I'm grossly out of shape, but that is compared to the shape I was in when I got my shodan.  I don't think skiing well with correct technique is all that demanding, compared to running up sand dunes, or portaging 100 lb packs up steep trails while trying to make time on a canoe trip.  It's all relative.


Ghost, important point. I think a lot of the conversation has been based around everyone's own definition of "in shape" versus "out of shape". Which is fine, but it becomes hard to make any absolute statements when we're all on different pages. The other issue is people seem to be considered either "fit" or "unfit" in this discussion. No mention of "average". Perhaps average falls into unfit? moreover, what is average? Is "average" someone who's not overweight, but not particularly physically active? 

 

Personally, before I started skiing I fit the profile of the mid-20s office worker; my physical activity was limited to busting some cheesy moves once a week at the dance clubs. After skiing, my life has been largely the same, minus dance cheese but with a few days a week of skiing during the winter. As a developing intermediate, that fitness level was totally fine. However, I really started to feel the limitations of my fitness level this past year in particular when striving for a dynamic parallel turn and big bump runs. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Ghost I agree but would add that the more dynamic the skiing gets, the more strength and agility it requires. In that cert 3 testing scenario, performance bumps and dynamic short radius turns are two activities that would require a higher level of fitness. Whatever it takes for that candidate to be fit enough to perform up to the standard for those activities is the minimum fitness level they should be thinking about for the test and the upcoming season. Age and injury take their toll and we all face that fact daily. The only way to fight that is to work out regularly. Obviously, I don't subscribe to the opinion that fitness is optional when it comes to skiing, or life.


JASP, agreed, level 3 does require much more dynamic skiing than the 2 or 1. Particularly in the dynamic parallel and bump exams. That's where I noticed the more fit, under 30 people having much more success than the more "average" types. I think that just means I'll have to work harder and keep active in the off-season. Though I've commented a bit below about "working out" as the solution...

 

Quote:
In PSIA-W, if you can't ski Climax (Mammoth) top to bottom and maintain a consistent L3 performance level, you won't pass.  Realistically, this means candidates in less than excellent physical shape and/are over 40 years old are highly unlikely to pass, unless of course the individual has political connections within the organization or is in a preferred demographic group.

 

Ah, that's honest. I also find it interesting, given that skiing's supposedly an anaerobic activity. Honestly, how often do you teach while skiing top to bottom in one run? Hopefully never. Not sure of the CSIA level 3 length requirement, other than being able to do the exam bump run in one go. Well, presumably that's the expectation, or they'd pick longer runs!

 

Quote:
Met, I am going to be a bit blunt but I don't see fitness as the issue if you look at cert levels properly. If you are hoping to pass that test by having a couple great performances back to back but lack the ability to ski to that standard on a daily basis, then I would question the wisdom of even taking that test. I'm not trying to discourage you as much as point out that the test is just a milestone you pass by during your ski career. Your worth to your school (and to yourself) isn't tied to a pin, it's in what you can do safely on a day to day basis. I understand life interfering with those fitness and skiing goals but without that commitment to whatever fitness activities it takes for you to consistently perform at that higher level, that pin means nothing.

 

JASP, for me, the cert is the barometer, not the "prize". When I can ski at a level 3 standard, I'll be happy with my skiing. I completely agree that a one-time performance is meaningless. 

 

As for wanting to reach that level without physical fitness investment... well, honestly, skiing has been my primary physical activity. Lately I've taken up skating to cross-train for fun, fitness and (hopefully) some technique improvement. Someone (I forget who, sorry!) made a good point that your cross-training needs to be fun, otherwise you won't do it. So if you can't stand running on a treadmill for hours on end, that's not the right progression for you. But there's almost certainly something you will enjoy, given that you already enjoy one physical activity. (I don't mean you, JASP, I mean you the people). 

 

But honestly, and I'm going to simplify here, level 3 is only "advanced" skiing. It may sound flippant to say so, but there's a huge realm past that level. Look at our CSIA level 4s, the backcountry guides, the dudes in Warren Miller films, etc... What ever happened to "anyone can become an expert skier"? wink.gif I mean, "anyone" includes grossly out of shape people, the completely uncoordinated, those with various other issues... As a not horribly unhealthy person with five years on snow, I think it's pretty much time to break through that barrier. 

 

Next season! That will be my 3 season. I'm so going to do it. Definitely.

 

EDIT: I just re-read my first post in this thread about my physio. My conclusion is that physios are completely out of touch with the average person's fitness/strength level because they're exposed to so many athletes. So no more getting down because of it. To top it all off, the back problem stemmed from an error in lifting at the gym, which I was visiting to try and improve my fitness level. rolleyes.gif

post #63 of 69

I may not do top to bottom runs all day long in most teaching situations, but there are those times that I do and I must be able to deliver on those days.  I teach a lot of level 7-9 lessons, mostly in the all day format.  I like to cover most of the "teaching" before lunch and switch to a "coaching" mode after lunch as the skills covered in the "lesson" are put into real "tactical" use on a variety of terrain and conditions.  Most of my students are middle aged like me.  Some are not in very good shape and some are tri-altheletes.  I need to be ready to ready for both or step down to a lower level lesson.  I also "teach" some private lessons on big powder mornings where the guests buy a "lesson" with an early tram.  They are usually very strong skiers who are interested in shralping maximum powder before lunch.  We ski top to bottom runs without stopping and cut lift lines.  I have been with groups who will do 20,000 vert before lunch.  Any "teaching" I do in this situation is in the quick tip format on the lift.  These are really fun ski days and those who are looking for this type of "assignment" must be able to keep up with their guests.  I know lots of fat level 3s, so fitness is not the whole story, but if you really want to be a top professional, you really need to be strong as well as technically proficient.

post #64 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

 


So, I'm 51, can't see anything clearly within arm reach without my "cheaters", missing an acl in my left knee, have a used acl in my right knee, had my right rotator cuff sewn back together.  All this has happened within 3 years!eek.gif

 

I also have a bad back that I have to pay close attention to so I don't injure it.

 

It does make me think more about my future goals and certifications.  I'm planning on going for L2 in the next year or two.  Then if getting L3 fits my fancy I would go for it sometime after that, but had been thinking my window of physical opportunity would be open for much longer.  

 

It could end up being that the physical aspect of it will require more effort than the knowledge or skill level will? th_dunno-1%5B1%5D.gif

 

Ken


Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I know more than a few examiner level skiers who still rip and are well north of fifty. Squaring out the life curve isn't a new idea nor is it a mystery how to hang onto your skills well into retirement age. I used to whine about my knees until a friend who has fifteen years on me pulled me aside one day and told me he has two fake knees and a fake hip. Then he told me to stop giving myself excuses for not performing up to my potential. What impressed me most was the fact that on a bike I couldn't catch him and on skis it was all I could do to keep up with him.

 

So, I guess it's my turn to be on the other side of that conversation here. It's been said that success is 90% preparation and 10% opportunity. That includes your body, your mind and your spirit. Sometimes that is the hardest part, physically, mentally and emotionally prepared candidates know they are at the standard, even on an ordinary day. That's why they pass. How they achieve that symbiosis of the three is through preparation.

 

Using myself as a reference, these things listed in my post have to be considered when setting future goals and what needs to be focused on to meet those goals.  It's not about having an excuse to not bother going for it.  It is about understanding where to focus energy and what a reasonable time line is.  In order to take the most direct route between two points, you need to know where you are going, what is along the way and where you are.

 

Physically, I would be better off going for L3 as soon as possible (i.e within the next 5 years instead of the next 10 years).  I also have to accept that there are things going on with my body that won't get better but can get worse.  It is up to me to minimize those "things" and/or find work arounds (i.e. I love running but my left knee hates it so I now love biking).

 

From my view, the obstacles "I" need to over come to get to L3 (assuming all goes swimmingly for L2), are Skill, Physical Fitness and Knowledge; in that order and Skill be the hardest obstacle.  This is aside from the life based obstacles (work, time away from family etc).  Studying enough to pass L3 would be the shortest time line requirement.  I'm not down playing the knowledge requirement but I can study year round but only ski in the winter. Getting my skills to pass L3 will be the longest, but keeping my body fit to ski to the L3 standard consistently and constantly, will take the most devotion.

 

Maybe it's the heat and humidity, but lately any activity has been making me feel old so this has been on my mind quite a lot lately.  I've been debating whether I'm going to accept that I'm older and I can't push myself like I used to, or push myself (strategically and smartly) until I can do what I used to be able to.  Taking it easy isn't in my nature but I have had three doctors recommend I dial it down a notch or two.

 

Anyway.  More ramblings keeping me from working on the pool.

 

Happy 4th,

Ken

 

 

post #65 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I may not do top to bottom runs all day long in most teaching situations, but there are those times that I do and I must be able to deliver on those days.  I teach a lot of level 7-9 lessons, mostly in the all day format.  I like to cover most of the "teaching" before lunch and switch to a "coaching" mode after lunch as the skills covered in the "lesson" are put into real "tactical" use on a variety of terrain and conditions.  Most of my students are middle aged like me.  Some are not in very good shape and some are tri-altheletes.  I need to be ready to ready for both or step down to a lower level lesson.  I also "teach" some private lessons on big powder mornings where the guests buy a "lesson" with an early tram.  They are usually very strong skiers who are interested in shralping maximum powder before lunch.  We ski top to bottom runs without stopping and cut lift lines.  I have been with groups who will do 20,000 vert before lunch.  Any "teaching" I do in this situation is in the quick tip format on the lift.  These are really fun ski days and those who are looking for this type of "assignment" must be able to keep up with their guests.  I know lots of fat level 3s, so fitness is not the whole story, but if you really want to be a top professional, you really need to be strong as well as technically proficient.


As it should be ^ .

 

TPJ's description above & it's different scenarios are what any true LIII should expect & be prepared for.

 

JF

 

 

post #66 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I may not do top to bottom runs all day long in most teaching situations, but there are those times that I do and I must be able to deliver on those days.  I teach a lot of level 7-9 lessons, mostly in the all day format.  I like to cover most of the "teaching" before lunch and switch to a "coaching" mode after lunch as the skills covered in the "lesson" are put into real "tactical" use on a variety of terrain and conditions.  Most of my students are middle aged like me.  Some are not in very good shape and some are tri-altheletes.  I need to be ready to ready for both or step down to a lower level lesson.  I also "teach" some private lessons on big powder mornings where the guests buy a "lesson" with an early tram.  They are usually very strong skiers who are interested in shralping maximum powder before lunch.  We ski top to bottom runs without stopping and cut lift lines.  I have been with groups who will do 20,000 vert before lunch.  Any "teaching" I do in this situation is in the quick tip format on the lift.  These are really fun ski days and those who are looking for this type of "assignment" must be able to keep up with their guests.  I know lots of fat level 3s, so fitness is not the whole story, but if you really want to be a top professional, you really need to be strong as well as technically proficient.


Let says Nobis shows up and wants a 'private" lesson just he can cut the tram. You better be a fit SOB and a great skier or your never getting that assignment. this actually does happen at snowbird.

 

post #67 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

I just re-read my first post in this thread about my physio. My conclusion is that physios are completely out of touch with the average person's fitness/strength level because they're exposed to so many athletes. So no more getting down because of it. To top it all off, the back problem stemmed from an error in lifting at the gym, which I was visiting to try and improve my fitness level...



On the other hand, maybe the physios were offering some good advice which you're reluctant to accept.  By all means, temper their suggestions to match your personal goals, but the comments about building core strength & flexibility are pretty appropriate for "average" people too, not just competitive athletes.

 

You've been on a few certification courses, and have done a good handful of training sessions and clinics now, so you've seen a good cross-section of candidates at various levels of development.  If you think about it, you have probably seen a few candidates who were held back by fatigue and strength limitations, and also the "big and strong" candidates who struggled with technique.  Bottom line is that both elements are part of the package, and you'll develop a better and more complete package by giving attention to both parts.

 

And there is still more to the complete package.  Think back to your CSCF EL course, and remember TTPPEE -- Technical, Tactical, Physical, Psychological, Equipment, Environment.  This has relevance to instructor training and certification too.

 

post #68 of 69

Happens here to.  They wouldn't give me Nobis, unless he showed up last minute.  I would take it if it came up though.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




Let says Nobis shows up and wants a 'private" lesson just he can cut the tram. You better be a fit SOB and a great skier or your never getting that assignment. this actually does happen at snowbird.

 



 

post #69 of 69

I will start by saying I hate to exercise. That's why I teach skiing full time in the winter and landscape and wrangle firewood all summer. That way I stay in shape without having to think too hard about it.

 

I don't think "fitness" as such is a  criteria for L3.  However the exams are such that if you can't ski at a high level for the whole exam you will not pass. Strength and endurance are good things, but there is being in shape, and there is being in ski shape. The two are related but l find lots of skiing is the best exercise for skiing.

 

For what it's worth I passed my L3 telemark in my mid 40s. 3 days of skiing fast in the woods. Fitness was a definite factor, but efficiency was the biggest clue as to who would keep it together for the whole exam.   

 

Pardon my preseason rambling but this is the first time I've looked at epic in a long time.

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