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bumps drive hips forward on leg extensions or flick heals back - Page 5

post #121 of 147

Thanks for your insight mdf. I ripped the word off PJs narration I think. But you are right, I too use the # 3 definition.

post #122 of 147


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

tech·nique

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/T01/T0100900" target="_blank"><img src="http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0" alt="technique pronunciation" /></a> [tek-neek] dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA

–noun

1.
the manner and ability with which an artist, writer, dancer, athlete, or the like employs the technical  skills of a particular art or field of endeavor.
2.
the body of specialized procedures and methods used in any specific field, especially in an area of applied science.
3.
method of performance; way of accomplishing.
 
So CSIA is clearly using definition 2, where no one thing in isolation can be a "technique".  But most of us are using definition 3 most of the time.  Definition 1 gets used rarely.
 
So yes, UUW is a technique (3), but not a technique (2).


Pretty close Mike. 

 

  I think, in general, pros in the ski industry will be inclined (no pun intended) to use definition #2,  CSIA or any other recognized organization.

 

post #123 of 147

I think one problem with UUW in the bumps is it can lead to "double pumping" (two, or at least one and a half) flex/extend cycles per bump.  I see it sometimes in my own technique (definiton (1) here, by the way).  I made a concerted effort to improve my skiing for a few years, but have been "just skiing" the last couple, and I've seen a little regression with some of the bad old days creeping back in.

 

Edit - I forgot my main point, which is that double pumping is what sets the speed limit for a lot of people.


Edited by mdf - 5/21/11 at 2:48pm
post #124 of 147
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post Green comments areTDK.

TDK,

 

  Just as an FYI for you in the time frame that PJ did that video it was common practice in PSIA to begin turns with an up unweighting movement as the primary way to start a turn.  He was clearly try to show  that as a demo in the bumps. 

 

Im very much aware of the up-unweighting technique. As a matter of fact I have taken deep interest in it during recent years because I think its highly missunderstood and it very much has its place in modern skiing. His demo of up-unweighting in the bumps was excellent. I would not call it bump absorbtion but a valid way of skiing in the bumps. I saw a demo of a CSIA instructor on youtube dooing the same but with much more speed and it worked fine and it looked fluid.

 

Second.  When you mention that there are times when " you ski in bumps that provide you with the necessary up force" you are correct.  In that era PSIA recognized that and it was called terrain unweighting.

 

Thanks.

 

So in the time frame of the video of PJ there was up-unweighting (typically extension at the beginning of the turn or rebound),  down un-weighting (which could be passive or active) and terrain unweighting (taking advantage of terrain instead of body movements to unweight)

 

Very very interesting. You are saying that up-unweighting is somehow coupled to "rebound". IMO its the lack of "rebound" that is the reason why we need to use a movement to unweight. Then you are saying that DUW can be eather active or passive. It would be very interesting to hear what they are. Can you give examples. IMO DUW is passive. Im not saying there is no activities but not to unweight. Rather smoothen out the impact of something pushing up. How does in your opinion DUW differ from terrain unweighting? Could it be that they are the same? It all boils down to "what is pure down unweighting"???

 

The idea of using lateral motion (like much of today's modern skiing) was recognized but not yet fully accepted as a method to unweight the skis.

You are right. But today its the other way arround.

 

Very very interesting. You are saying that up-unweighting is somehow coupled to "rebound". IMO its the lack of "rebound" that is the reason why we need to use a movement to unweight. Traditional up un-weighting (using our muscles / bones etc) to actively make our bodies rise to lighten the skis is one type of up-unweighting.  The other would be to load the skis (reverse camber) and when quickly released the energy in the ski (along with help from our body) sends you up.  Both events move you upward and the skis lighten.  Both are considered an up un-weighting movement, and I agree with something you said earlier that the snow to ski pressure is lightest at the end of our extension no matter which way you do it.

 

Then you are saying that DUW can be eather active or passive. It would be very interesting to hear what they are. Can you give examples. IMO DUW is passive.

Sure. I'm going to save myself a little time though.  Here is what VSP said about it. One quick note though. IMO Personally I consider all three below to be a form of unweighting downward.  In my mind if your core gets closer to your feet (which in theory it should with all three) you have moved down and unweighted in the process.

 

Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
In a down unweighting movement, the source is INTERNAL, ACTIVELY using MUSCLES to abruptly move the CORE TOWARD THE FEET. This results in a very short duration reduction of pressure between the skis and snow, as the effectis only as long as the duration of the rnage of movement. Timing of this movement is critical, due to its short effective duration

In a retraction turn, again the source is INTERNAL,ACTIVELY using MUSCLES to aggressively pull the FEET TOWARD THE CORE. Though the duration of the effect can be a little longer than down unweighting, it still is of relatively short duration. A significant difference between a retraction turn and down unweighting is that a retraction movement can be done effectively just about any time and in most environments, whereas a down unweighting movement has more limited effective use. A retraction turn also offers greater control than down unweighting, but not even close to the degree of precision offered by a flexion turn.

In a flexion turn, the source of energy is EXTERNAL, using the energy developing in the skis (ANGULAR MOMENTUM and GRAVITY) as they arc/carve through a turn. The skier then PASSIVELY allows the legs to flex (FEET TOWARD CORE) as much as necessary to manage the external energy at a degree which is functional. This allows the skier to very precisely determine how much energy is desired to affect the turn and the ensuing transition. Conversely, the skier is then capable of extending the legs (FEET AWAY FROM CORE) with a degree of precision necessary to maintain the desired pressure between the ski and snow in the top half of the turn.

 

How does in your opinion DUW differ from terrain unweighting? Could it be that they are the same? It all boils down to "what is pure down unweighting"???  Terrain unweighting is exactly what it implies.  The hill does the work for you.  Assume for a second you are are totally motionless (your body that is) and you are skiing toward a bump and you make no changes what-so ever. Odds are you are going to launch if you make no adjustments. You launch....it's terrain unweighting.  I would think a fall away gate in a race course would be another example of terrain unweighting.

 

(I just don't want the racers left out of our bump thread here!)

post #125 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

I think one problem with UUW in the bumps is it can lead to "double pumping" (two, or at least one and a half) flex/extend cycles per bump.  I see it sometimes in my own technique (definiton (1) here, by the way).  I made a concerted effort to improve my skiing for a few years, but have been "just skiing" the last couple, and I've seen a little regression with some of the bad old days creeping back in.

 

Edit - I forgot my main point, which is that double pumping is what sets the speed limit for a lot of people.


Exactly. And sometimes 1+1 can even be 3. This is exactly my point. People that are depending on up-unweighting for initiating their parallel turns struggle in bumps before they learn how to start using terrain unweighting which is the reversed flexion/extention pattern. Thanks for the word "double punming". Havent heard it before.
 

 

post #126 of 147

Thanks UL for your posting. Very good information. So when a skier approaches a bump and gets launched up in the air its terrain unweighting. But if he flexes his leggs and absorbs the bump. Would that be down-unweighting? Even if his COM stayed at the same distance from the center of earth?

post #127 of 147



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 Even if his COM stayed at the same distance from the center of earth?


I think I've almost given you enough here TDK,  but to answer this part ......uh......maybe.  What if the Earth ain't really round.  What if it's really egg shaped.  We almost never be able to measure whether the COM got closer or further or the same now could we ?biggrin.gif

 

I'll stick with head moving toward the feet as my standard.

 

Anybody seen Nail lately ?
 

 

post #128 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post


I think I've almost given you enough here TDK,  but to answer this part ......uh......maybe.  What if the Earth ain't really round.  What if it's really egg shaped.  We almost never be able to measure whether the COM got closer or further or the same now could we ?biggrin.gif

 

I'll stick with head moving toward the feet as my standard.

 

Anybody seen Nail lately ?
 

 



Thanks for your answere. Yes, Use Your Head. And the earth is not round if we are skiing down a double black diamond mogul run smile.gif.

 

post #129 of 147


This thread is comical and prototypical of how bump/mogul skiing threads evolves at this site nowadays......

 

 

 

However getting back to the OP and TPJ, in terms of flexing the knees and projecting the hip forward:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

I'm not fully convinced that this is an example of flexing the knees while simultaneously projecting the hips forward.  I think the projection of the hips is missing here as that move would tend to introduce some forward rotation into the mix.  I also don't think that a backscratcher move is an effective mogul skiing technique to be using on every turn regardless of whether or not it illustrates the mechanics that Nail advocates.
 

 

Look at the vid of Chuck Martin.... see how he drives the tips down on the extension, opening up the ankles is done but this is limited due to the inherent forward lean of the boots. Depending on how far he wants to drive those tips downward, he will have to flex his knees and open the hip. At the same time, see how he projects his hip forward.... at times more forward than others. And yes, I am also in the opinion that opening the hip does project the hip forward.

 

 

btw... in terms of effectiveness, the vid speaks for itself. In terms of competition, imo, driving the tips down on the extension is one of several movements that separates the elite skiers from the pack.

 

 

 


Edited by jack97 - 5/22/11 at 8:24am
post #130 of 147

Jack, nice video. Very nice. This guy ripps. But Im not really sure what you mean when you say that he is flexing his knees and opening his hips at the same time.... Quote: ...he will have to flex his knees and open the hip. At the same time, see how he projects his hip forward.... at times more forward than others. And yes, I am also in the opinion that opening the hip does project the hip forward.... Here I took a couple of screen shorts from him from the side:

Chuch Martins 001.jpg

 

To me it looks like he is extending and flexing his legs. His upper body and torso remains quiette and calm. IMO, looking from right to left, as he flexed he lifted his knees upwards towards his chest resulting in closing his knee and hip joints. Right? When he extends his legs he opens both his knee and his hip joints. I dont understand what people are refering to when they are claiming the opposite. That as you flex your knees you open your hip? IMO the topic of this thread "bumps drive hips forward on leg extentsions of flick heals back" is in line with the two picks here above.

 

Here is a drawing I made some time before on the topic of feet pull back:

Feetpullback002.jpg

 

post #131 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I dont understand what people are refering to when they are claiming the opposite. That as you flex your knees you open your hip? IMO the topic of this thread "bumps drive hips forward on leg extentsions of flick heals back" is in line with the two picks here above.


 

Topic of this thread was “bumps drive hips forward on leg extensions or flick heals back”. This was in the context of leg extensions as they travel over the top of the bumps to its back side. Then it evolved to several tangential items, one of which was the backscratcher item which questioned as a technique or a movement where flexing the knees while simultaneously projecting the hip forward was effectively used. With that said, I believe I gave an example of this. Furthermore, it relates to the OP where flick heals back can be accomplished by flexing the knee given the backscratcher poster.

 

OK, not convince? ….. look at the vid of your countrymen; Sami Mustonen. Looking at the the frontal view, during the absorption, you see the bottom of his skis. When he does his extension (travels from the top to the bottom of the bump); you only see the topsheet of his skis. How can this be given his ski boots allow him limited range to open and close his ankles? Only joints in play with significant range are the knees and hip. Again…. I believe opening the hip does project the hip forward.

 


 

 


Edited by jack97 - 5/22/11 at 2:04pm
post #132 of 147

Jack - Sami Mustonen? Now we are talking serious wc zipper line bump skiing smile.gif. Those guys ripp big time. I see what you are getting at but I would like to suggest that as he flexes and you see the bases of his skis his hip joint is closing. His hips are back. His feet are forward. The fact that he is pointing his skis tips down so that you can see the top sheet of his skis is totally natural. How else would he be comming down the hill? You see the bases because there is a bump he skis over. You see the tops of the skis because the hill has a pitch and he needs to ski down. So as he extends he points his skis down the front side of the bump (downhill side). Sure the more you point the tips down into the walley the more you need to bring your ski tails up against your butt. I would also like to suggest that if you stay forward its easier to point the skis more downhill. Is that close to what you have in mind?

post #133 of 147

My point exactly TDK.  I think it is hard to flex the knees and open the hips at the same time and that it is not a common move used in mogul skiing.  There is no doubt that opening the hips projects the CM forward as does opening the knees.  I think that Jack is seeing something I'm not if he thinks that the knees are closing while the hips are opening in this video.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Jack, nice video. Very nice. This guy ripps. But Im not really sure what you mean when you say that he is flexing his knees and opening his hips at the same time.... Quote: ...he will have to flex his knees and open the hip. At the same time, see how he projects his hip forward.... at times more forward than others. And yes, I am also in the opinion that opening the hip does project the hip forward.... Here I took a couple of screen shorts from him from the side:

Chuch Martins 001.jpg

 

To me it looks like he is extending and flexing his legs. His upper body and torso remains quiette and calm. IMO, looking from right to left, as he flexed he lifted his knees upwards towards his chest resulting in closing his knee and hip joints. Right? When he extends his legs he opens both his knee and his hip joints. I dont understand what people are refering to when they are claiming the opposite. That as you flex your knees you open your hip? IMO the topic of this thread "bumps drive hips forward on leg extentsions of flick heals back" is in line with the two picks here above.

 

Here is a drawing I made some time before on the topic of feet pull back:

Feetpullback002.jpg

 



 

post #134 of 147

Jack...  I just viewed the video that you posted.  What I see are the knees and the hips opening together as the skier extends.  Both of these moves push the CM forward as I have said all along.

post #135 of 147


TPJ,

 

 In the context of the sequence TDK pulled out.... yes, the hip and knees are opening on the backside, this is required especially after a deep absorption where the knees are fully closed.  However, the knees still has to remain flexed if the tips are to be pointed down on the backside of the moguls.

 

Now consider the opposite case, if one was to approach the top of the bump with legs somewhat extended or knees open. For example; at the start of the bump run, a flat spot on the run or after landing from a hop turn, then the knees may require flexing to point those tips on the backside.

 

In both cases, knees are flexed. And the more one wants to point the tips downward, the more flexing one will need. It was prolly confusing in my other post to use "flexing" from a deep absorbtion sequence/vid instead I should have used.... knees are opening but still need to be "flexed".
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

My point exactly TDK.  I think it is hard to flex the knees and open the hips at the same time and that it is not a common move used in mogul skiing.  There is no doubt that opening the hips projects the CM forward as does opening the knees.  I think that Jack is seeing something I'm not if he thinks that the knees are closing while the hips are opening in this video.
 



 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Jack, nice video. Very nice. This guy ripps. But Im not really sure what you mean when you say that he is flexing his knees and opening his hips at the same time.... Quote: ...he will have to flex his knees and open the hip. At the same time, see how he projects his hip forward.... at times more forward than others. And yes, I am also in the opinion that opening the hip does project the hip forward.... Here I took a couple of screen shorts from him from the side:

Chuch Martins 001.jpg

 

To me it looks like he is extending and flexing his legs. His upper body and torso remains quiette and calm. IMO, looking from right to left, as he flexed he lifted his knees upwards towards his chest resulting in closing his knee and hip joints. Right? When he extends his legs he opens both his knee and his hip joints. I dont understand what people are refering to when they are claiming the opposite. That as you flex your knees you open your hip? IMO the topic of this thread "bumps drive hips forward on leg extentsions of flick heals back" is in line with the two picks here above.

 

Here is a drawing I made some time before on the topic of feet pull back:

Feetpullback002.jpg

 



 


Edited by jack97 - 5/22/11 at 6:19pm
post #136 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post



  

My definition of UP/DOWN unweighting makes this analysis and understanding of skiing all possible...and quiet frankly....makes it simple.

 

  


It also makes it completely useless. It basically means that all high performance turns are up unweighted. FYI I used the term "up-unweighting moves". Your definition does not take movements into account. With your definition you can make up-unweighting with any kinds of movements.

 

I prefer to think about what flexion extension pattern is used rather than using the terms up/down.
 

 

post #137 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post





Here for example. Now you know what to look for:

 

Extention001.jpg

 

 

TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation.



↓↓↓Is this picture is OLF?


 

OLF?

 

post #138 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post





If I understand you correctly you are asking how Marting and PJ are different in the bumps. There might be a huge difference in age so a comparisson is difficult. If you look at Martins skiing you cannot really see a huge flexing and extending range of motion. In the bumps he cruises down in an orderly fascion and turns on top of the bumps and their ridges. This is the ultimate "granny line". PJ skied the zipper line for the most part but he could ski any line. If you are trying to copy Martins skiing I dont see anything wrong with it. I ski bumps that way too sometimes. And I teach people to ski just like that. Skipping zipper lines and going accross the slope scouting for good places to turn and keeping everything under controll.

 


TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation.

 

"ultimate "granny line"" This is the first time I heard. This is funny. On granny line. Do you have any special views it in your draw?

 

78f63e17_Bumpchart002.jpg

 

post #139 of 147

I am not sure.

 

When I read this thread. In my mind.

 

Maybe is flick heals back on bump top side to make terrain unweighting, then over bump top side to drive hips forward on leg extensions.

 

It seemed to be equally important to drive......

 

Can I think so?spit.gif

post #140 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman View Post

I am not sure.

 

When I read this thread. In my mind.

 

Maybe is flick heals back on bump top side to make terrain unweighting, then over bump top side to drive hips forward on leg extensions.

 

It seemed to be equally important to drive......

 

Can I think so?spit.gif



hmm.... well stuff like this is more adictive than p0rn....

 

imo, how one wants to unweigth is their choice pending the terrain, the situation they are in and the situation they want to get into.

 

In terms of flicking the heals back on the frontside of the bump, some think of it as clearing the hip over the top......it's a desire movement for speed control. On the backside, yes the hip drive is essentail, imo, equally important is to get the tips pointed down to keep contact with the snow. With the backside snow contact, you have control.... which is key.

 

As simple as this concept is; keeping the tips down, even at the World Cup level, some do it better than others. Its has to do with the "uncoupling" concept SD72 brougth up. Driving those tips require hip drive and knees flex... but too much of either may put you out of position on the frontside approach, too little will put you in the back seat.

 

Hope that helps. 

 

post #141 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman View Post



 

TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation.



↓↓↓Is this picture is OLF?


 

OLF?

 


Yes. See how she flexes her outside right leg in frame 2. In frame 3 both leggs are equally flexed. This is what is called OLF or OLR (retraction).
 

 

post #142 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman View Post




TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation.

 

"ultimate "granny line"" This is the first time I heard. This is funny. On granny line. Do you have any special views it in your draw?

 

78f63e17_Bumpchart002.jpg
 

 


When you ski the granny line you ski across the slope scouting for good bumps to turn on. Then you turn and ski the other direction. Sometimes you can link a few bumps but mostly you stay out of the fall line. In very small bumps you use the green line and turn on the bumps. This way you can easily unweight your skis and pivot them on a bump. More common would be the blue line. 
 

 

post #143 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post





hmm.... well stuff like this is more adictive than p0rn....

 

imo, how one wants to unweigth is their choice pending the terrain, the situation they are in and the situation they want to get into.

 

In terms of flicking the heals back on the frontside of the bump, some think of it as clearing the hip over the top......it's a desire movement for speed control. On the backside, yes the hip drive is essentail, imo, equally important is to get the tips pointed down to keep contact with the snow. With the backside snow contact, you have control.... which is key.

 

As simple as this concept is; keeping the tips down, even at the World Cup level, some do it better than others. Its has to do with the "uncoupling" concept SD72 brougth up. Driving those tips require hip drive and knees flex... but too much of either may put you out of position on the frontside approach, too little will put you in the back seat.

 

Hope that helps. 

 

 

Jack:
 

Thank you a lot.

Give me some ideas.

 

When I knew the way, the practice is needed.

post #144 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




Yes. See how she flexes her outside right leg in frame 2. In frame 3 both leggs are equally flexed. This is what is called OLF or OLR (retraction).
 

 

 

TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation.

 

This is clearly to let me know.

 

 

post #145 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




When you ski the granny line you ski across the slope scouting for good bumps to turn on. Then you turn and ski the other direction. Sometimes you can link a few bumps but mostly you stay out of the fall line. In very small bumps you use the green line and turn on the bumps. This way you can easily unweight your skis and pivot them on a bump. More common would be the blue line. 
 

 

 

TDK:

 

Thank you for your explanation and viewpoint.
 

I think this is an easy entry into the study method of bumps technology.

post #146 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




When you ski the granny line ... 
 

 


May 24, 2011

 

Hi tdk6:

 

Cute, skiing the "granny" line at Mt Grani biggrin.gifsmile.gif!  Quite appropriate.  (By the way,  a google search did not reveal a Grani ski area).

 

I always thought one follows the "green line" to achieve financial security roflmao.gif.  (For those of you who are not US TV junkies, this is a play on the Fidelity advertisement).

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

post #147 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post




May 24, 2011

 

Hi tdk6:

 

Cute, skiing the "granny" line at Mt Grani biggrin.gifsmile.gif!  Quite appropriate.  (By the way,  a google search did not reveal a Grani ski area).

 

I always thought one follows the "green line" to achieve financial security roflmao.gif.  (For those of you who are not US TV junkies, this is a play on the Fidelity advertisement).

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 


LOL, so now you know why I dont ski a lot of bumps or powder biggrin.gif.
 

 

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