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Can Skiing be used to help confirm ADD ? - Page 2

post #31 of 50

Not starting a flame war here....but could you clarigy the following?

 

 

>>Well, that is not surprising.  The most common ADD medications (amphetamine salts or amphetamine pro-drugs) very rapidly wipe out the brain's natural store of catecholamines (norepinephrine and dopamine, both responsible for motivation and attention) and desensitize receptors/pathways the drugs affect.  When the drug is withdrawn, the brain literally shuts down.  There is little activity in many areas of the brain (especially is those involved in rational decision making)...<<

 

Peer reviewed citation for this, please?

 

 

>>To the OP's point... I don't think skiing can be used to diagnose ADD.  "ADD" is overdiagnosed and often really means people are not doing well in a certain environment and may do better in another.  Instead of finding the right environment (which can be difficult in some cases such as school) people are put on medicines to artificially produce motivation and work ethic.  Skiing may actually be calming/stimulating to people with ADD that have boredom/lack of motivation in other areas of life.<<

 

Artificially produce motivation and work ethic? That's an interesting way to put it. My son describes the effect of his medication as giving him access to the off button to the 10 radio stations that are playing in his head.

 

While on this lovely subject, some miscellaneous points...

 

>>For those that don't know, some ADD medications are CII controlled substances (same category as cocaine)...  Using them can elicit dependence and addiction.  Furthermore, they can stunt growth in children, and they may dramatically increase the risk for lymphoma, leukemia, and parkinson's disease.  They often cause malnutrition and personality disorders as well, and can promote psychotic thinking and grandiosity.  On top of all this is pretty serious cardiotoxicity.  It is probably best to exhaust ALL other options before putting someone on psychostimulants.<<

 

Cocaine is used in exactly zero ingested drugs. It's in some eye-drops for opthalmic testing. Stunted growth is directly related to the anorexic effect of the medication. The cure is eating. And I mean anorexic in the medical sense of appetite-suppressant. The link to any cancer or Parkinson's has been debunked. The drug does not cause personality disorders, but it may trigger latent symptoms. Removal of the drug makes the symptoms go away and is usually diagnostic that something else is going on. Citation for cardiotoxicity please? Side-effects are dose-related, and stimulants have a pressor effect. Unless you meant cardiotoxic in the way Phen-Fen was? Methlyphenidate has been used for nearly half a century and the long-term effects are well-documented. Having said that, some people can't take stimulant medications. I would actually be far more cautious using the NON-stimulant medications as their long-term effects are completely unknown. Strattera is a re-branded anti-depressant and Intuive is a re-branded anti-hypertensive. Every responsible physician prescribing any medication is going to start with the lowest dose possible and work up if needed.

 

 

>>Before someone flames me for writing this: I was on such medications at prior points in my life.  And as such I can authoritatively say this:  SKIING SUCKS ON ADDERALL!!!!  It is SOOO much more fun without it.  Why?  Because amphetamines aritificially "hijack" the brain's reward/pleasure centers so normal things that are enjoyable stop being fun... such a buzz-kill in this awesome winter sport.<<

 

This may be a very accurate reflection of your experience. However, for many kids with severe impulse control issues, skiing can be exponentially more dangerous off-meds.

 

Everyone's mileage may vary, no?

 

Cheers.

 

A

 

 

post #32 of 50

PMJI...

 

Drug holidays are usually to let the kid catch up on calories.

This more commonly occurs when the kid has the inattentive type and

not nearly so much for the the really hyperactive, serious deficits in impulse control type.

 

Those are the kids that will decide to huck the headwall at Tuxs on their first day on skis.

 

My son currently does not get school-year weekends off med.

Too much homework.

He gets summers off.

And as our pediatrician says, the second he qualifies for his license, drug holidays are off the table.

Period.

 

Our ped re-assessed him for impulse control concerns when Jack told him he wanted to start some

serious terrain park time, and he conferenced with Jack's instructor. That's a damn thorough pediatrician.

 

The way it should be.

 

Cheers.

 

@

post #33 of 50

Allison, let's not start a flame war, or get off topic.  If you are genuinely interested in exploring toxic effects of amphetamine medications (or perhaps methylphenidate if that is what your one child is on), you can take it to Pubmed, google, and other resources.  There's no sense in me putting in a bunch of "citations."  While in your research you will find there are some markers of brain function that don't return to normal until up to 4 years following administration of amphetamines.

 

Many of things I wrote are just the way it is (and like I said if you want to do more research feel free).  For some things, such as theoretical leukemia risk due to myelosuppression and toxicity from substituted benzene rings, I said it "may" increase the risk.  You probably don't need to worry, because we all already have a 40% chance of getting cancer at some point in our lives... however increased risks of certain types of cancers are certainly alarming from a medical perspective.

 

To some specific things you wrote... amphetamines produce dose-dependent psychotomimetic effects indistinguishable from schizophrenia.  At lower doses, the euporia imparted by amphetamine administration can elicit disinhibition and other serious personality issues in predisposed individuals (this can often be subtle, and can cause issues at home and work for some people).  As far as cardiotoxicity... that's pretty significant, and there are black-box warnings for that.  I never said atomoxetine or guafacine was any better... those certainly have other risks that don't make treatment a slice of apple pie. 

 

And the my point for noting that amphetamine and methylphenidate are CII substances is that they are highly addictive (methamphetamine; pharmaceutical "Desoxyn" is also in this class...and we all know what that can do to people)... and many individuals cannot control how much medication they take and often run out of medication well before prescription runs out (and there we have iatrogenic amphetamine dependence)...  But it is all of these issues together that make the decision to medicate a child very serious.

 

Also, about your statement on appetite: it is not just so simple as "The cure is eating."  If you have not taken a psychostimulant then you really cannot appreciate how impossible eating can be.  Nutritional abnormalities/deficiencies do develop in some people on pyschostimulants.

 

The last thing I will say is your child may do very well on the medication and have no problems (and be happy, many kids do tolerate the medication and are helped by it).

 

Allison I do have a degree in biochemistry* (making me partially qualified to interpret literature on the topic and summarize it), but you've made it clear you are the smartest person here (and most expert on this topic), and that I bring "melted crayons" to "intellectual swordfights," so I really don't want to engage in another back-and-forth here.  I'm sincere when I say you can choose to believe who and what you want on these matters.

 

*before you criticize this please note I am not saying I am some kind of expert on this issue... I'm merely saying on this topic I do have some authority to comment on it

 

 

Have a nice Mother's Day.

 

 

EDIT:  LOL, an "intuniv" advertisement just displayed in the right-hand side of the screen... it must be one of those "smart-ads" that knows what this thread is about... how convenient for someone reading this thread rolleyes.gif

post #34 of 50

I'm a firm believer that drugs should only be used as a last resort, for just about everything non life threatening.  Diet, exercise, psycho therapy, just about everything else is preferred to adding chemicals to the body that aren't part of the natural human diet.  When possible, learn to manage and overcome with what nature and our environment offers. 

 

However, big caveat here.  I would strongly recommend some temporary chemical relief if needed to avoid or avert potentially dangerous situations such as post part-um depression.  I also wouldn't recommend natural remedies to someone with a seizure disorder or diabetes of course.

 

But, for a growing and maturing kid, especially at younger ages I can't see putting my kids on anything other than occasional,allergy meds unless the only other option is institutionalization where they will be doped up anyway. 

 


I can get behind making them ski if we can get our health care plan to cover that therapy.  Is Summit county "in network"?

post #35 of 50

We must be careful to not chase people away from getting competent evaluations for their children.

 

First you get the eval, then you decide if Aderol is fun, or if the child should be medicated, or if you happen to be a firm believer in this or the other way.

 

First you get the eval and hear what the medical professional and the rest of the team has to say and then you decide for yourself if ADD or ADHD is real or if it is a figment of our society or genitic neurology or if the risks of meds are worth it.

 

First we eval the child and then we choose sides.

 

In the mean time, flame on

post #36 of 50

Let's try to keep this skiing related or else the mods will move this thread to the supporter area.  If, ADD/ADHD is a real mental disorder, just for the purpose of the thread we should say it is because the OP didn't ask if it was real or not. ... I still say anything that requires focus and deters mind wandering is probably a good thing

 

I've seen some claims backed up with video that show that people with MS and other tremor disorders can skate or ride a bike without suffering from the tremors.  I'm guessing skiing requires a similar focus and targets similar brain function.  Thinking of that is where my conjecture comes from about skiing and ADD.

post #37 of 50

Loss of attention is the first sign that I have to stop skiing or rest.  I do loose attention skiing when blood sugar drops, or if not enough sleep, too much gym time the day before, other stresses on mind.

 

I will sometimes stop and take a nap inside for half hour, reset button, go.  Hell, Ill take a nap outside.

 

Which reminds me of another reason to get checked out if ADD is suspected.  Part of the ADD workup is to  do diagnostic blood work, urine analysis etc to rule out other disorders for which a physical cause is known... hyperthyroid, HypoT, diabetes, nephrological related, other neuro, not to mention the other very real psychiatric Diagnosis that may effect a child including depression all fo which must be differentially diagnosed and could mimic Attention related syndromes to the untrained eye.

post #38 of 50

Just the last paragraph alone gives me

post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post

Just the last paragraph alone gives me

beercheer.gif
 

 

post #40 of 50

My nephew, son to my brother, cousin to my also 20 year old son, brother to his 9 and 14 yr old sisters, who had ADHD with the concomitant depression, best full ride hockey player at his college, ended his own life this past monday night.

 

We were with him on Mothers day, my son was not there, and Nicky sat at the head of grandmas table next to his uncle Joe, grandma staigjht across and my daughter-his cousin next to grandma.

 

He lost his scholarship due to low grades because everyone seemed to forget about his ADD and ADHD as the hockey awards poured in and he stopped his meds, he stopped the counseling, the educational program that started for him as a youngster and WHICH WORKED FOR HIM.  He was grown now and able to make his own decisions...surely he out grew that ADD thing.

 

He was happy on Sunday but disjointed somehow, not really with us in retrospect....On Monday evening he hung himself on the weight set next to his room while his mother, sisters were upstairs cooking and dad was outside.  He texted two friends to tell them what he was going to do.  His GF made it just in time to screem for his mother who saw him and father applied CPR to exhaustion but my Nicholas was gone, beautiful boy.  Our hearts break.

 

If you happen to be ignorant, perhaps the pompus MD above who says psychiatry is quackery, or that the meds used for ADHD do not work, or that this is a figment of societal factors, you are so many shades of stupid that it is hard to stay with in the lines.

 

If you think that this is not real you have your head in the sand. 

 

Our hearts are broken for our Cherib with a smile and a big mop on his head.  Everyone loved Nicky.

 

Educate yourselves to this.

 

 


Edited by joeshoto - 5/11/11 at 6:50pm
post #41 of 50

^^^That's terrible.  There's nothing I've experienced (or likely ever will) worse than losing a child.  That one sounds complicated.  No doubt people tried to get him back on track with the regiments that were successful, therapeutic,  ritualistic, and pharmacological.  Sometimes there is nothing else anyone can do but allow a young adult to hit bottom and be there to help them back up when they are really ready to make changes.  Not everyone survives that bottom, and it isn't anyone else's fault.  Still hard not to blame yourself and others in retrospect.

post #42 of 50



monday suicide nephew.  Craig thanks you for your kind reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshoto View Post

My nephew, son to my brother, cousin to my also 20 year old son, brother to his 9 and 14 yr old sisters, who had ADHD with the concomitant depression, best full ride hockey player at his college, ended his own life this past monday night.

 

We were with him on Mothers day, my son was not there, and Nicky sat at the head of grandmas table next to his uncle Joe, grandma staigjht across and my daughter-his cousin next to grandma.

 

He lost his scholarship due to low grades because everyone seemed to forget about his ADD and ADHD as the hockey awards poured in and he stopped his meds, he stopped the counseling, the educational program that started for him as a youngster and WHICH WORKED FOR HIM.  He was grown now and able to make his own decisions...surely he out grew that ADD thing.

 

He was happy on Sunday but disjointed somehow, not really with us in retrospect....On Monday evening he hung himself on the weight set next to his room while his mother, sisters were upstairs cooking and dad was outside.  He texted two friends to tell them what he was going to do.  His GF made it just in time to screem for his mother who saw him and father applied CPR to exhaustion but my Nicholas was gone, beautiful boy.  Our hearts break.

 

If you happen to be ignorant, perhaps the pompus MD above who says psychiatry is quackery, or that the meds used for ADHD do not work, or that this is a figment of societal factors, you are so many shades of stupid that it is hard to stay with in the lines.

 

If you think that this is not real you have your head in the sand. 

 

Our hearts are broken for our Cherib with a smile and a big mop on his head.  Everyone loved Nicky.

 

Educate yourselves to this.

 

 



 


Edited by joeshoto - 5/12/11 at 6:29am
post #43 of 50



Funeral done, over 1000 people at wake for this unfortunate boy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshoto View Post



monday suicide nephew.  Craig thanks you for your kind reply.



 



 

post #44 of 50

A biochem degree doesn't really qualify one to make clinical comments, not even if it was specifically human biochem... A clinician or someone w/ 1st hand experience (or parents of) or maybe an advanced degree in neurophys, those are the folks that can speak from their own or patients' experiences w/ some degree of credibility.

 

Back to the title/original question, I'd speculate that in some unmedicated ADHD patients have symptoms would be reduced in situations such as skiing the steeps or lead rock/ice climbing where the extra adrenaline/epinephrine produced from the "screw up & get hurt or die" factor would sharpen one's focus. In situations where concentration is key but hard to keep because the activity includes extended periods of (mindless) boredom (studying, road cycling, flying planes esp in USAF & RAF, baseball, riding up a ski lift, etc) stimulant drugs would make a difference. It'd be like the glue that holds the wandering mind to the long, boring tasks.

 

Also, the increased heart rate may be more pronounced if the person taking the stimulant is from low altitude but is suddenly at elevation (ie, people from sea level skiing at Breck, etc).

 

edit: my condolences to you, joeshoto

post #45 of 50


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddirt View Post

A biochem degree doesn't really qualify one to make clinical comments, not even if it was specifically human biochem... A clinician or someone w/ 1st hand experience (or parents of) or maybe an advanced degree in neurophys, those are the folks that can speak from their own or patients' experiences w/ some degree of credibility.

 


What I said is "I am not an expert," but that "I am partially qualified to interpret literature," which is certainly true for anybody with such a degree.  I didn't really make any "clinical comments," but rather stated some basic facts about psychostimulants and their risks, and also some other facts I've absorbed from mental health professionals.

 

Please re-read first page (and don't get in a habit of calling people out if you haven't even read an entire thread)... I do have first hand experience, I've both been diagnosed with ADD in the past and taken different ADD medications.  I also have experience observing roommates on the medication before and after, other first-hand experience... also, I have spent a bunch of time shadowing mental health professionals of different kinds who are experts on these issues. 

 

For all these reasons I do have at least some "credibility," as you put it, to offer an opinion.  I already noted in my post above I am not an expert.  Please, by all means, do not listen to me... but understand I do have personal experience, and thus perspective on this.  I noted my degree mostly b/c person challenging me (an urban HS American Govt teacher who went to Yale) likes to list qualifications in threads.

 

Most of what I have said are specific things about ADD medications (psychostimulants, particularly amphetamine-based ones)... I never said they don't work, or that there is not a need for medication in some people, or that ADD is not a real disorder.  Feel free to explore the primary and secondary literature sources yourself if you want to be more informed on topics pertaining to that..  Of course, with 11 posts since 2009 I don't think you'll be back anytime soon.

 

Anyway this thread now probably belongs in a different section of the site.

post #46 of 50

All Crap.

 

What happened to my beautiful nephew relates to what has been posted here.

 

Parents are looking for a reason to find normalcy in their children.  They are looking for an answer that includes every and any reason to believe that their child does nor have anythng wrong or that they have outgrown it.

 

When parents see people with credentials or personal experience say things like psychiatry is quackery becasue they must often use inference to diagnose, the parent no longer believes the MD who knows this field best.

 

When another ADD consumer comes on and speaks of the ill effects of teh medications, even more reason is found to easily believe that there is no reason to expose the boy to those senseless chemical hazards, besides the boy is doing so well without them and thte meds are discharged without consideration of expert opinion.

 

Even when a completely uninformed opinion appears here stating whatever contraposed opinion they may have, the parent and even adult child (20) sees this and are then convinced that nothing is wrong or that the information they already have is based on bogus conjecture designed to line the pockets of the very real experts that they must depend upon.

 

A quick review here shows a post reminding everyone that people in need are reading this (and many other websites) and we have to be careful to not scare people away from otherwise competent opinon before they have even had a chance to get a straight diagnosis to inform their own decisions. 

 

If you are talking and your proud opinion would lead people away from actually competent sources that would help them to make up their own minds, then you are talking out of turn because your opinion is not important in the larger scheme of everyone that may read a thread like this.

 

Express your opinion carefully so as not to lead people away from experts whose role it is to lead people to their own informed decisions. 

 

Your opinion and experience may help, but not until competent standard options have been examined by those who need.

 

And the same is true as you speak to in-laws, joe blow down the street, sisters and brothers and friends be it about vaciniations, other mental health, or sliding down a hill. 

 

Care should be taken to not stop a persons decision process of getting and staying in treatment.  Those in need grasp at straws.

post #47 of 50

^^^

Well said.

post #48 of 50

^^^ you've gone through an extremely traumatic experience, maybe you should step away from the keyboard for a little while?

post #49 of 50

thanks everyone,   Ghost, Redirt, whiteroom, cragildart.   That boy could go all day.

 

I'll be back

 

Peace

post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshoto View Post

thanks everyone,   Ghost, Redirt, whiteroom, cragildart.   That boy could go all day.

 

I'll be back

 

Peace


Thanks... hard to disengage from some who, well, nevermind. Thank you very much for the reminder.

 

FWIW, I just noticed this article that is kind a longitudinal in "study" (its more anectdotal) but may be of interest.

 

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-ritalin-q-a-20110515,0,2543006.story

 

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