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Why the lack of learning ski skills progressively - Page 2

post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post



 


If only it were that simple...wink.gif
 

 


 

Oops--I must have said something crazy again redface.gif (That's why I like epicski--generally when someone says something crazy, they get called on it!) 

 

What'd I miss? (Well, aside from the fact that it's possible to teach or ski better than the minimum standard, or the nature of "beginner", "intermediate", "advanced" and "expert")

post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post




 

Oops--I must have said something crazy again redface.gif (That's why I like epicski--generally when someone says something crazy, they get called on it!) 

 

What'd I miss? (Well, aside from the fact that it's possible to teach or ski better than the minimum standard, or the nature of "beginner", "intermediate", "advanced" and "expert")

Met

This whole thread is crazy, but not because of your posts. 

It's a long summer.  Everyone should step away from the keyboard, go outside, and take up golf or something.

 

BK
 

 

post #33 of 40

BK,

 

The thread asks a legit question. For those who have not taught, the alternative of teaching progressively makes a lot of sense. For those who do teach, the amount of "progressivity" in our teaching is probably a surprise when you think about it. But it's hard to describe why the idea has little merit without having a lot of teaching experience to put the conversation into perspective. Trying to take up golf is an excellent suggestion for getting perspective. Fore!

post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

Oops--I must have said something crazy again redface.gif (That's why I like epicski--generally when someone says something crazy, they get called on it!) 

 

What'd I miss? (Well, aside from the fact that it's possible to teach or ski better than the minimum standard, or the nature of "beginner", "intermediate", "advanced" and "expert")


No, not crazy at all -- just a little "tongue-in-cheek" reply from me...

 

The categories you've listed are pretty commonly used, although IACRCV is perhaps less useful to apply to the GP. 

 

What I'm thinking of is that for the CSIA levels, each step is much higher than the previous, and consequently covers a much wider range.   There will be room for some overlap in the mapping of instructor levels to target student ability levels.  And at each level there are some who work hard at staying current and some who would be challenged if they had to go through exams again. 

post #35 of 40

Kneale, let me toss this at you and it may well have been covered in later posts but I would hate to forget and let this pass.  wink.gif

 

Since you are one of the more senior PSIA guys here I'll toss this off you?

 

As I start reading this thread just as the other guys the obvious starts falling out; how skills are lost and the old use it or loose it right.  And as I used to hear a student say "Now that I have mastered that railroad track drill" ... or ... "Now with the last instructor I mastered  using poles and" .. what is going through your mind is how after 40 years you aren't the "master" of much but of course you would never say that would you?

 

My next thought was that despite it's warts in some other (perhaps organizational), areas, PSIA did, IMHO, do a pretty nice job with the progressive aspect of what is in the "normal" lesson for Level 1 intro or 2 and so on for the "normal" ... "Joe Doe".

 

Two things pop out at me so far and I am fully aware that it is not a perfect world and with that in mind:

 

Never getting the same instructor twice.  Hmmmm in some cases there is not much can be done.  Way out west where you are and the guest comes for the week perhaps not as much the issue and indeed some things can't be solved.  Work hours, burn out rate and all of those things but?  Let me quit on that and let the pot of tea steep for a monment?

 

Next and most importantly here as Bushwacker gets into responding to Powder Jet, (I agree fully with him and such on the students hate drills), but lets put the notion of a log book under the microscope for a moment?

 

Flying is always a "sport" or avocation that commands more immediate and serious consequences for failure to adhere or participate in "the drills", like failure to recover from a spin is pretty nasty for sure, but for most of us, like 97% of the people who get any stick time it is not professional but it's a recreational pursuit.  A simple tidy little log book is de rigueur, you get one and it follows you for life.  Now, we don't have to be that nuts about the book but really, if you are half way serious about your skiing this should be in your flight bag.

 

Honestly, we could design one that is more soft cover, smaller than the usual flying log ( 8" X 4 1/4" ) and has rounded corners so you don't get poked in a fall?

 

As a PSIA "copyright" type tool they even make a few dollars off it?  To save time most of it is in the check of a box with one line for remarks for each flight .. "pathetic X-wind landings, student advised not to quit the day job, you want fries with that right?"

 

date .. aircraft .. ident # .. from .. to .. remarks .. category of aircraft (single or twin) .. cross country .. day .. night .. actual insturment, .. simulated insturments .. etc and hours with a total running

 

In a private not much of a problem, to sign off on a group of ten, fifteen or so ... hey, I gotta' pee sometime.  eek.gif

 

The instructor today can take a look and have a clue where the student has been and with whom ... "Kneale B. PSIA L-1" duck.gifand you know what questions to ask at the start, "It's been two years since KB signed off on your work on short radius turns ... hmmm on icy ... what have you been doing since then?

 

I know, I know that finer minds than mine have probably hashed this out and dismissed it for good reasons but it doesn't hurt much to give it a look does it?  There are many things in skiing that fit right in with flying.  Coordinated turns and the carve, skids and slips are totally identical in approach.  There is more similar than different perhaps?

post #36 of 40

Once I had been flying and the winter shut the ops at the small grass strip.  I was going through withdrawl bad so I decided to go close to home at the large tower control commercial type field.  It was not only expensive as hell though the Beechcraft were nice indeed, but I never once got the same instructor twice.  In like eight expensive hours, it was the same drill, "I'll take the ship cause this is a busy strip and now ... show me straight and level flight, turn to the right and now left and oooooooooops, time to go back and I'll take the landing cause this is a busy place"

 

If the instructor had bothered to look, I had been doing take off and landing since day two.  This was just a money maker for them and dragged out the process.  You were booked with one guy but he always had a charter that "came up last minute".  Bull shizz.


Edited by Yuki - 5/6/11 at 4:28pm
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post

What I'm thinking of is that for the CSIA levels, each step is much higher than the previous, and consequently covers a much wider range.   There will be room for some overlap in the mapping of instructor levels to target student ability levels.  And at each level there are some who work hard at staying current and some who would be challenged if they had to go through exams again. 


No kidding eh... I'm still at least a few months off from hitting the l3 despite five years of skiing. And then another ten years to the level 4... 

 

Like one of my friends said, in theory one could become a brain surgeon in less time. 

post #38 of 40

Yes but brain surgeons can bury mistakes.  The bad news on the hill is that when the snow melts, well it's ugly.

post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Jet View Post

Hi Rick, I appriciate the complement coming from a man who might have developed the most productive method for the average skier to reach thier full potential. I have not sean the DVDs but the concept is dead on & you understand the concepts & principals involved with skiing more then anyone I know based on your posts on this site.

 

 Money is a medium of exchange that represents lifes energy. Lifes energy is in limited supply & as such should be used wisely. If one has to work an extra 40 hours to buy the latest skis, instead of older ones & works extra hours to pay for lessons or coaching instead of purchasing DVDs. The extra hours worked which used lifes energy has to be added to the total amount of lifes energy for that method. (new skis,lessons & coaching which is the average path) Even skiers that do not take lessons would save money (lifes energy) in the long run by not trying to buy a turn by purchasing the DVDs & the results I think would be better even if they are a better scientist then Einstien.( because a short cut is a mentor if & only when they understand that which they are thinking) I know your right on when you talk about not being able to buy a turn.

 

I told the head of the instructors @ our ski hill about your site & DVDs because it just seams so practical to me.  

I will be getting your DVDs for start of next season

 

 Rick in your above diagram if the turn stayed where it was & the fall line was North it is the shape of turn I seam to love doing. Trying to figure out the precise size & tempo that is most pleasing to the eye & or uses the energy most wisely is perhaps a job for the great painter Leanardo.

 

  Anyone that has porposed in & out of powder has most likely made a shell shaped hole without even trying (ski with soft tip & stiff tail even more likely). The reason being the snow gets denser closer to the bottom then the top because of the snow closer to the bottom having more weight on it. (not sure about wind blown or crusted from sun) The golden ratio is found throughout nature & I would not be surprised if the density spiraled based on the golden ratio. When making a turn if when edging the skis sink deeper & deeper into the snow building up compresion throughout turn (turn becomes sharper then released the shape is often sean. Landing a porpose your sinking in deeper as the turn developes.  On ice it shows up less often because of less sinking & weight of snow to bank against. The high water content in corn snow making it heavier will help to make the turn quicker

 

 

 

 From the squat position to the straight leg position leg strength increases & based on the natilas strength machines which follow the natural strength path of the body it seams to follow the golden spiral.

 

 The travel of the pole for counter balance & timing can also follow the path of the golden spiral by using anyone of the bottom 3 fingers as triger fingers which is composed of three bones in golden section to one another, takes the spiraling shape of a poinsettia leaf when curled.

 

 Just like a hart which beats & rests short spiraled shape turns I kinda think would allow the muscles to work the same way with the building & releasing of compresion.

 


Powder Jet, thanks for the support, and for spreading the word about the Building Blocks program.  Your life's energy description is spot on to the theory behind the program.  There are years worth of lessons within my DVDs, at a fraction of the cost of one.  Plus, it's composed within a complete concept which gives people insight into the big picture of ski technique on the whole.  Much of the feedback I get from people using the program is how it's served to broaden their core understanding of the sport.  It connects the dots for them.  

 

So, I was looking at your Golden Spiral from the wrong end, aye?  Is this the turn shape you actually meant?  

 

 

long to short radius.001.png

 


Edited by Rick - 5/7/11 at 9:11am
post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Jet View Post

 Just like one learns addition, subtraction, multiplication & division before they move on to calculus. Should skiing skills be learned in a progressive order before skiing bumps or steeps?

 

 I have often herd of clinics focusing on bumps, powder, & steeps but I cant remember ever hearing of a balance clinic or an edgeing clinic.

 

I do not know of a single ski school that records in a computer the progress of skiers skills. A skier can spend a lot of money taking lessons @ xyz ski hill then go to xy ski hill spend more cash for over lap & or try to learn something beyond thier ability as the skills were not being learned in a progressive order. There is no record of the skills that are developed & not developed. There is no recording that a skier can or cant do x drill on green, blue or black run.

 

 I am not a ski instructor but it seams to me one organization in Canada seams to control most of  the ski instruction @ most hills in Canada. By not having a step by step progressive method for developing a skiers skills are they doing a good job?

 

To me a more practical approach is to develope skiing skills in a progressive order & the ski schools should  be recording the skiers progress i.e., they have developed & or taken a certain level of a specific skiing skill which could be numbered in progresssive order that is most logical.

 

 The old get rich quick method could still be offered for the lazy skiers that demand it. The ski industry should also be offering the more practical approach & explain to the customers why it is a better aproach. I do not see anyone doing it except for Rick with his videos.


Holy-Facepalm.jpg

 

 

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