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Short Turns MA please... - Page 3

post #61 of 80

My thoughts are that movements do generally start with the feet, but I don't like the idea of early knee angulation.  I'm not so sure its as simple as saying its always smallest to biggest or biggest to smallest.

 

post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post


Are you trying to say that you reach higher angles if you start with inclination? IMO the primary use for inclination early in the turn is if you need to brush the entry, otherwise I see no problem in trying to achieve high angles as early as possible.

 


No, I wasn't saying that I could reach higher angles with inclination (although you've got me wondering now...). I was saying that I could progressively increase my edge if I used inclination. 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're describing with 'brush the entry' but am intrigued by what you are proposing.

 

I don't have a problem with achieving high edge angles early. In fact it's a very good thing. I do have a problem when I reach my maximum edge too early. 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

Gigatoh, you mention a sequence of total body inclination, then knee, then hip, in that order.  I am curious as to why that particular sequence vs. total body inclination followed by hip angulation then knee angulation?


Well, to me it makes sense for different reasons. I try to ski simple from the feet up. So it's feet, knee then hip.

 

Hip angulation then knee angulation would not be a very strong stacked position for me especially towards the end of the turn when forces are higher. But that's just me. It might work for you the way you propose. 

 

post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigatoh View Post

I'm not exactly sure what you're describing with 'brush the entry' but am intrigued by what you are proposing.

 

 


What I was meaning is that when you need to brush the entry of the turn, e.g. to sharpen it you must make sure you are not deploying the skis with a platform angle that make the edge locked. If you have to much angle the skis can hook and you can get injured. To avoid that you can have more inclination than angulation early in the turn, later in the turn when the skis are travelling more in the direction they are pointing you can edge more and lock the edges.

 

post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post


What I was meaning is that when you need to brush the entry of the turn, e.g. to sharpen it you must make sure you are not deploying the skis with a platform angle that make the edge locked. If you have to much angle the skis can hook and you can get injured. To avoid that you can have more inclination than angulation early in the turn, later in the turn when the skis are travelling more in the direction they are pointing you can edge more and lock the edges.

 


Is this like the 'Bode (Miller) Slide' racers use for a tight gate?

 

post #65 of 80

Hey, Skinerd.

 

Here is my take on what I saw. The first set of demos I am assuming taken a Mount Washington seemed to lack dynamics, actually kind of boring. Mechanically good sound skiing. Nice turn shape and rhythm. Just lacking the WOW factor. Tactially- Ski faster, find away to create more energy and release it in phase 3. I really like the way you seem to sneak your feet under your body during transition. Be careful though sometime it appeared to be a little quick.

 

** Here it is! Right turn, left leg too much forward ankle flex and inside knee. If you look closing you will see a slight A Frame and wedge in phase 3 on the turn to the right. Too much lead change*****

   Turns to the left are outstanding. Some P.F. (positive reinforcement for ya)

 

Skiing Austria 2011

 

Dude!! Like night and day. Performance and skill in a smooth and tasty cocktail.

Beware though. I believe I did see some of the same issues from the first demos sneaking in just a little for the short turns (A FRAME phase 3). The GS demo, well what can I say. Perfect and good for you!

 

You know what to do and how to get there. Create your own good luck.

Cheersbeercheer.gif

 

 

 

 

post #66 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

Hey, Skinerd.

 

Here is my take on what I saw. The first set of demos I am assuming taken a Mount Washington seemed to lack dynamics, actually kind of boring. Mechanically good sound skiing. Nice turn shape and rhythm. Just lacking the WOW factor. Tactially- Ski faster, find away to create more energy and release it in phase 3. I really like the way you seem to sneak your feet under your body during transition. Be careful though sometime it appeared to be a little quick.

 

** Here it is! Right turn, left leg too much forward ankle flex and inside knee. If you look closing you will see a slight A Frame and wedge in phase 3 on the turn to the right. Too much lead change*****

   Turns to the left are outstanding. Some P.F. (positive reinforcement for ya)

 

Skiing Austria 2011

 

Dude!! Like night and day. Performance and skill in a smooth and tasty cocktail.

Beware though. I believe I did see some of the same issues from the first demos sneaking in just a little for the short turns (A FRAME phase 3). The GS demo, well what can I say. Perfect and good for you!

 

You know what to do and how to get there. Create your own good luck.

Cheersbeercheer.gif

 

 

 

 


Thanks Tek Head,

 

Yep... I agree the turns in the first video are a bit slow and boring... they were actually supposed to be demos for an instructional video so the slower speed was somewhat intentional but I won't try to make excuses for the lameness ;)!

You definitely are right about there being something funky about the turns to the right. Those darn asymmetrical turns have haunted my dreams and made me obsessive compulsive about boot and alignment experiments over the past several years... which frankly have gotten out of hand! Looking at the videos (and from my own sensations while skiing) I'm not sure whether it is actually the left foot getting caught behind as you mention... or whether it is an inability to engage that inside (right) ski to the same degree on those turns that give that slight stem appearance?? It does seem to be a bit more apparent in the videos with the slushy spring conditions.

 

post #67 of 80

All looks fine. I dunno what CSIA is looking for, but my guess is you're probably well headed in that direction from everyone else's comments. So skip CSIA for a minute...where do you want to go with your skiing? I'm a Masters racer, but we spend about 5x amount of time free skiing and doing drills for the amount of time we spend in the gates. A lot of drills, yes, but a lot of steep and deep, bumps, varied stuff.  I mean, to a large extent, the reason you're doing all this stuff is so that you can go places and do things that most other skiers can't do. The year I got my PSIA L3, we drilled a bunch, but our group leaders really emphasized that we ought to be able to ski anywhere, on any kind of snow.

 

Just for something outside the box, go get some 165 SLs and run some gates. In Rocky Mountain Masters, we can race all four disciplines, and I really think SL helps you in the speed disciplines but I think the reverse is also true. If you haven't done it yet, go find a pair of 201 Super Gs and make some BIG arcs...

 

 

post #68 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post

All looks fine. I dunno what CSIA is looking for, but my guess is you're probably well headed in that direction from everyone else's comments. So skip CSIA for a minute...where do you want to go with your skiing? I'm a Masters racer, but we spend about 5x amount of time free skiing and doing drills for the amount of time we spend in the gates. A lot of drills, yes, but a lot of steep and deep, bumps, varied stuff.  I mean, to a large extent, the reason you're doing all this stuff is so that you can go places and do things that most other skiers can't do. The year I got my PSIA L3, we drilled a bunch, but our group leaders really emphasized that we ought to be able to ski anywhere, on any kind of snow.

 

Just for something outside the box, go get some 165 SLs and run some gates. In Rocky Mountain Masters, we can race all four disciplines, and I really think SL helps you in the speed disciplines but I think the reverse is also true. If you haven't done it yet, go find a pair of 201 Super Gs and make some BIG arcs...

 

 

Couldn't agree more... the diverse skier is a good skier.  I think it is a great idea to challenge yourself in all conditions.. in all terrain... at all speeds.... with a variety of different goals.

 

Lately I have realized that my switch skiing is atrocious (likely as a result of being kind of old and growing up in the pre-twin tip era)... but in order to be a well rounded skier and develop a broad spectrum of skills I have decide to spend more time challenging myself in this area. Slalom is another... and there are many more areas of weakness that can only improve my over all skiing. Having a broad spectrum of skills is what allows an expert skier to improvise and create in a variety of situations.

If you are interested in what the CSIA is looking for, their idea of 'functional skiing' is probably a good place to start... this includes: All terrain, any conditions... free to choose line and speed.... and with economy of effort. I must that I really like the direction they are headed with this. The latest assessment tool at this level are the CSIA advanced competencies. When watching a skier ask yourself these questions... Is the skier maintaining strength and flow? Are they skiing arc to arc? Is there appropriate loading and deflection? Do they have there steering versatility?

post #69 of 80

Sorry, but what you are demonstrating are sequential heel push turns. Look carefully at the timing and location of the snow coming off your edges as each turn finishes.

 

If you want to make pretty little passive "ski instructor" turns with your feet pressed together like Stein Erickson did 50 years ago you've found the groove.  The Canadian team Interski follow-the-leader sequence may be ballet, but is not dynamic skiing.  Feet too close together, outside knee excessively bent in a position where it can't support any real G force,  turn radius entirely dependent upon the 12 meter sidecut built into the skis, no real energy generated from the interaction of the ski and its edges with the snow and with the skier's pressure.

 

On the other hand if you want to ski dynamically study what the mere mortals (not Bode or Shred) and in particular the best women are doing on the World Cup. Or go to Greg Gurshman's site, YOUCANSKI.COM and absorb the results of his two decades of  coaching.

 

post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by elderski View Post

Sorry, but what you are demonstrating are sequential heel push turns. Look carefully at the timing and location of the snow coming off your edges as each turn finishes.

 

If you want to make pretty little passive "ski instructor" turns with your feet pressed together like Stein Erickson did 50 years ago you've found the groove.  The Canadian team Interski follow-the-leader sequence may be ballet, but is not dynamic skiing.  Feet too close together, outside knee excessively bent in a position where it can't support any real G force,  turn radius entirely dependent upon the 12 meter sidecut built into the skis, no real energy generated from the interaction of the ski and its edges with the snow and with the skier's pressure.

 

On the other hand if you want to ski dynamically study what the mere mortals (not Bode or Shred) and in particular the best women are doing on the World Cup. Or go to Greg Gurshman's site, YOUCANSKI.COM and absorb the results of his two decades of  coaching.

 


feet to close together? you want your legs close together so you can tip and all the seperations in dynamic turns comes from vertical seperation.

 

ted+ligety.jpg

 

BTW youcanski.com is one of the worst sites on the internet, he is coaching inclination and waist steering.

 

post #71 of 80


Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

BTW youcanski.com is one of the worst sites on the internet, he is coaching inclination and waist steering.

 



But active inclination is good...

 

http://www.turnshape.com/2011/12/active-inclination-advanced-edging.html

post #72 of 80
Thread Starter 

Just in case anyone is curious ... I just returned from the first of the performance clinics/interski tryouts for 2014 and my feedback was that I am a bit too open/countered at the the start of the turn and rushing into the angulation too quickly. More progressive edging will load the skis more and create more deflection. So now I'm trying to think about being a bit more square as I enter the turn and experimenting with where I project my COM in the transition. Looks like you may have been spot on Gigatoh.

 

Here's another quick vid of some big turns earlier this season for comparison.... will try to get some video experimenting with the above feedback for the remainder of the season to see what you folks think.

post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinerd View Post

Just in case anyone is curious ... I just returned from the first of the performance clinics/interski tryouts for 2014 and my feedback was that I am a bit too open/countered at the the start of the turn and rushing into the angulation too quickly. More progressive edging will load the skis more and create more deflection. So now I'm trying to think about being a bit more square as I enter the turn and experimenting with where I project my COM in the transition. Looks like you may have been spot on Gigatoh.

 

Here's another quick vid of some big turns earlier this season for comparison.... will try to get some video experimenting with the above feedback for the remainder of the season to see what you folks think.


I'm curious, just read your 1st post in this thread from a year ago, how did all the practice go? Did you spend much time practicing? And have you seen any changes?
post #74 of 80

skinerd, those are awesome turns! I love how you can make such big vertical separation in a hip width stance. Your inside leg is so flexed you can practically get your hip and hand on the snow--awesome. And great angulation. Perfect example of "hip to grip" and the "natural ski stance" thing they were on about at our last PDP here.

 

How steep is that run? What level of course conductor are you? And are you ever in Vancouver? 

post #75 of 80

Hey Skinerd. Could not get your latest video to play on my computer. Perhaps a problem on my end. No need I am sure the turns were great! Now that you got some feedback from the Interski tryouts you have some direction. EXCELLENT! Too much countered/separation too early eh? A little quick on the angulation eh? Now, was this feedback for all your turn shapes?

 

Your Section 8 group seems to be progressing well. To say I have been noticing changes with the entire group in a positive direction. Good luck with the rest of your program and personal training. Hope to ski ya later.

 

Tekhead  

post #76 of 80
Skinerd,

I think I'm in agreement with the observation that the turns in the video suggest the edge-angle is increasing too rapidly for a smooth turn entry - turns seem a bit abrupt from initiation to point of "maximum deflection" (point of shortest radius). Not saying this is 'good' or 'bad', just that the observation of turn development seems accurate.

From a mechanical perspective ... I'd think our most progressive edge-angle development would come about best using whole-body inclination first, then hip involvement, then knee involvement (if really needed).

To my way of thinking the most rapid development of angles would come from hip-joint articulation. This is because we can easily (and rapidly) "drop" our upper-body mass to the inside of the turn which would quickly create larger edge-angles. With whole-body inclination our skier would more slowly 'topple' toward the inside of the new turn, thus edge-angles would increase more slowly as well.

To figure out the difference you'd first need to figure the rate of whole-body 'drop' brought about by Gravity and the resulting angle at the skis for each moment over time (a little trigonometry needed here). You'd then need to figure out the rate of increasing angles for a toppling skier. Both scenarios would be adjusted by the slowing effect caused by increasing Centrifugal Force (CF) as the skis begin to turn (however progressively).

My gut feeling is that whole-body inclination would work best to begin a turn since you'd get slower edge-angle development at the beginning, while also positioning the upper-body really well for 'dropping' further down to the inside of the new turn. Note that the actual direction of said 'drop' will have changed a bit since a bit of CF will now be pulling on the CM in addition to Gravity.

It also occurs to me that using hip angulation late in this cycle rapidly increases the rate of edge-angle-increase right when we want it most - the moment we're trying to get CF to increase rapidly enough to stop our current CM-drop (to the inside of the current turn) and jettison our CM up & out of that turn so we might start our progress toward eventual crossover into the next turn.


---
Hey Ghost....

I'm swamped right now but if you read this (and have the time) this might make for an interesting graph comparison.
A few calculations could be constructed to show the rate of edge-angle development over time using:
1) strictly whole-body inclination (specify height of individual's CM)
2) strictly hip articulation (specify joint location and use same height of CM as above)
3) various combinations using both



.ma
post #77 of 80

Great skiing, and quite an improvement. I would not worry too much about the counter, early counter is good. But I guess if you have some standard to meet you have to listen to what they say.

If I would work on something it would be how you finish the turns. You still have a slight extension of the stance leg at the end of the turn. If you instead increase angulation by bending the knees a bit more towards the end of the turn, possibly also raise you inside hip a bit more. Then you will start a vaulting which will slingshot you much faster into the next turn than what you are doing now.

post #78 of 80
I see my post was deleted... Do more charleston drills without going up and over. Now I will say good bye and good luck.
post #79 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

Skinerd,
I think I'm in agreement with the observation that the turns in the video suggest the edge-angle is increasing too rapidly for a smooth turn entry - turns seem a bit abrupt from initiation to point of "maximum deflection" (point of shortest radius). Not saying this is 'good' or 'bad', just that the observation of turn development seems accurate.
From a mechanical perspective ... I'd think our most progressive edge-angle development would come about best using whole-body inclination first, then hip involvement, then knee involvement (if really needed).
To my way of thinking the most rapid development of angles would come from hip-joint articulation. This is because we can easily (and rapidly) "drop" our upper-body mass to the inside of the turn which would quickly create larger edge-angles. With whole-body inclination our skier would more slowly 'topple' toward the inside of the new turn, thus edge-angles would increase more slowly as well.
To figure out the difference you'd first need to figure the rate of whole-body 'drop' brought about by Gravity and the resulting angle at the skis for each moment over time (a little trigonometry needed here). You'd then need to figure out the rate of increasing angles for a toppling skier. Both scenarios would be adjusted by the slowing effect caused by increasing Centrifugal Force (CF) as the skis begin to turn (however progressively).
My gut feeling is that whole-body inclination would work best to begin a turn since you'd get slower edge-angle development at the beginning, while also positioning the upper-body really well for 'dropping' further down to the inside of the new turn. Note that the actual direction of said 'drop' will have changed a bit since a bit of CF will now be pulling on the CM in addition to Gravity.
It also occurs to me that using hip angulation late in this cycle rapidly increases the rate of edge-angle-increase right when we want it most - the moment we're trying to get CF to increase rapidly enough to stop our current CM-drop (to the inside of the current turn) and jettison our CM up & out of that turn so we might start our progress toward eventual crossover into the next turn.
---
Hey Ghost....
I'm swamped right now
but if you read this (and have the time) this might make for an interesting graph comparison.
A few calculations could be constructed to show the rate of edge-angle development over time using:
1) strictly whole-body inclination (specify height of individual's CM)
2) strictly hip articulation (specify joint location and use same height of CM as above)
3) various combinations using both
.ma

Me too.

The math would be fun, but I think it's mute; if you want to snap into the next turn just hang on to the last turn too long and suddenly release pressure, or just suddenly release pressure long before the last turn is over.  Momentum will dictate a quick angling of the skis in a sudden cross-under with lots of centrifugal force going on, regardless of all else, but that's not what he's aiming for.  On the other hand he could try doing the opposite, letting go more gradually and not hanging in there so muchth_dunno-1[1].gif.
 

 

post #80 of 80
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the input everyone... interesting thoughts to play with.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossymcg View Post


I'm curious, just read your 1st post in this thread from a year ago, how did all the practice go? Did you spend much time practicing? And have you seen any changes?


Unfortunately I haven't had time for much focused training but I am teaching/coaching almost everyday in the winter so I'm always thinking and experimenting with my skiing. As Tek Head mentions now that I have some more direction there will hopefully be some positive changes to come.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

Hey Skinerd. Could not get your latest video to play on my computer. Perhaps a problem on my end. No need I am sure the turns were great! Now that you got some feedback from the Interski tryouts you have some direction. EXCELLENT! Too much countered/separation too early eh? A little quick on the angulation eh? Now, was this feedback for all your turn shapes?

 

Your Section 8 group seems to be progressing well. To say I have been noticing changes with the entire group in a positive direction. Good luck with the rest of your program and personal training. Hope to ski ya later.

 

Tekhead  


When I first received this feedback I was doing a bit of a shorter turn shape then most of the others (my lack of patience showing perhaps!)... I thought maybe just changing tactics would solve it, but I did receive similar feedback later on in a larger turn shape as well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

skinerd, those are awesome turns! I love how you can make such big vertical separation in a hip width stance. Your inside leg is so flexed you can practically get your hip and hand on the snow--awesome. And great angulation. Perfect example of "hip to grip" and the "natural ski stance" thing they were on about at our last PDP here.

 

How steep is that run? What level of course conductor are you? And are you ever in Vancouver? 

Thanks.. I'm a level 2 course conductor currently working on level 3 tasks... however, being somewhat isolated over here on the Island it has been a really long process! I haven't skied any of the Vancouver mountains since I was a kid. I would love to get over to the mainland for some courses but because there are plenty of course conductor's already over there it is unlikely I'll ever get the call. I do try to get over to Whistler a couple times each year.
 

 

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