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Teaching "skiing survival" skills - Page 5  

post #121 of 133


Originally Posted by Yuki View Post

Screw off.


Really this is a "thin ice" topic.  It is pretty hard to factor a lot of things when dealing with a "paying guest" on a lift or anywhere on the property.


A lot of these "guests" are very hair trigger.  If you were to mention they had no gloves or thin gloves on a cold day?,

Or, if they ask a question on our very short lifts and you are on the way to meet a class.  Not to mention the question can be used against you if things go wrong.  I have been an unwilling party to a few train wrecks started by well intentioned instructors.  One ended in blood on the snow.

I have noticed this, and it means that it is wise not to excite, challenge, confront, upset, advise people any further in any way. The fear and adrenaline surge people experience while skiing over-stimulates them and they are not behaving normally, as themselves that is, once that mentality/emotions takes hold, IMO.


post #122 of 133

Would a high level skier be relaxed,respectful,courteous and at ease with his surroundings?

post #123 of 133

That's a good question.

post #124 of 133

I'm finding this thread very funny.  I ski nearly everyday of the season at a major western resort and don't really see the pecking order that some seem so wound up about.  What I do see are a few Bro-Brah wannabes trying to attract attention to themselves.  Those people are definitely in the minority even though their sheer auditory volume can make them seem more numerous.  Even the Bro-Brahs don't bother me too much as they recognize me as a true local and generally treat me as "worthy".  Sometimes they even ask me questions about skiing, most of them will admit to having technique issues if you actually can get engaged in a real conversation with them.  Most obnoxious Bro-Brahs outgrow the "look at me" behavior in a few years if they get past the hatchling stage.  


I can say that, as an instructor, I found it almost irrestiable to hand out comments and tips to everybody in my first year or so of teaching.  There is truth to the joke...  How do you know if there's a ski instructor in the room?  They'll tell you....  I now no longer have the urge to share/impose my knowledge on strangers.  I get paid for that and what I have to say has value, that value is almost never recognized when it's given unsolicited.  Most people truly find getting stuff crammed down their throats obnoxious.  I am happy to give out what I can for free WHEN ASKED and always in the "quick Tip type format.  I often will stop to give directions or help "tourists" who are obviously in trouble.  It always starts with "Hi can I help you?" and I leave immediately if they so "No thanks".  If I'm working, which is most of the time, my first responsibility is to my guests and someone would have to be in deep Doo-Doo for me to approach them then.  


I have said before how lucky I feel to teach for a IMO great SS.  I think we get paid more than most, it's still not a lot, and we have a lot of autonomy to teach what we think is best for the student.  I also like teaching in the longer format with a smaller group.  Generally I try to focus the "Lesson Plan" on one specific skill and how it fits into skiing in different terrain or conditions.  Beyond that there are any number of incidental things I will cover over the course of the day as they come up.  Many of these "things" were listed in the first page of this lengthy thread.  I have been skiing a long time and have a lot of knowledge that I can share.  The problem becomes information overload and I have found that a single focus with some applied tactics and a few incidental tidbits makes for a more effective lesson with more retention.  I definitely used to throw out more stuff in a day than I do now and would get confusing feedback at the end of the day, because the students couldn't effectively process all of the information that I would cover.  I have found over and over that in a "good" ski lesson that less is more.


I really do find Joeshoto pretty funny.  I will happily ski with you Joe if you come out here and can keep up or turn up in my lesson, but why is it that you seem to project the attitude that you are on the top of the pecking order?  From your posts I get the impression that you can't ski off-piste/bumps very well, yet you seem to act as though the wisdom that you have to impart on the "lesser skiers" has some sort of value.  Maybe it does...  I don't know.  How about waiting for someone to ask before imposing it on them?  Also as an "expert" skier, I would expect that the other "experts" would talk to you.  You seem insulted and hurt by the pecking order, so I am confused about where you "see" yourself in it?  Personally I don't recognize the "pecking order".  Maybe this implies that I am at the top?  I'm certainly not one of the best skiers on my mountain even though I am actually very good.  Joe....  You seem very concerned about what everyone else is doing and saying, whether it's helmets or chairlift rides.  I think maybe you need to focus a bit more on your own skiing and save the "advice" for those who solicit it.    

post #125 of 133
Originally Posted by Allison Matura View Post


So, as a 38D redheaded-Irish-Italian-South African-Spanish speaking-Yalie-Urban educator-poor-single mother of two-intermediate skier




post #126 of 133
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post




post #127 of 133
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
I have been an unwilling party to a few train wrecks started by well intentioned instructors.  One ended in blood on the snow.


Well I guess self defense does belong in the thread topic "Skiing Survival Skills" eh?

post #128 of 133


post #129 of 133

Joe I'm not sure where you are coming from responding to what I wrote.  To me it does sound like you would be "the guy" who is expounding on the lift and annoying those around them.  Trust me many first year instructors get caught in this trap.  I'm pretty sure that I did even though I tried not to.  I would like to ski with you if you came here and looked me up.  My "if you can keep up" comment is not a challenge, just a statement.  I will ski a few runs, if I have time, with any Bear who goes to the trouble of looking me up.  How long we ski together has more to do with how well someone skis than my attitude about their skiing.  I don't get a ton of free skiing time.  Maybe a few days a week during non-peak times and non at all over Christmas and the peak periods.  My wife expects me to ski with her some of that "free" time.  So when a, for example, level 5 shows up and wants to take some free runs with me, I'm happy to take a few runs, give the tour, and hand out some free quick tips.  I probably won't ski all day with that person and I'm not giving a full blown lesson.  It's not personal and I'm not trying to be mean, but I get paid to spend the day teaching lessons and I love my job, but I don't want to do it on my day off for free.  I have had a great time skiing with Bears like Philpug, AtNYC, Fireball, Bazzer, Bumpfreak, and others who are able to keep up enough and ski the fun stuff.  I will happily ski all day with someone like them, or you, when it's fun for me on my days off.

Originally Posted by joeshoto View Post

Teton, I am certainly not implying ever that I am an expert on the level you are.  That doesnt appear anywhere in my writing and a quick read of my completely geeked out profile makes that clear for all to see.  And you are the exception to the rule as you are an instuctor and your ski ethic is established.

Thanks I guess, I am not IMO a super expert.  I consider my skiing to be good solid journeyman level skiing, but I see REALLY good skiers everyday.  So far I am happy to say I have never had a student out-ski me, but that could happen anytimeredface.gif.  Hopefully I will still have something to offer this student when it happens.


I am not backing down when I say that I am not a high level skier but I can ski very well and I love it with all of my heart. Not for the status, as I have no status in skiing as you do, but for the enrichment it brings me and my family and friends.

Status in skiing is about useless.  When you get right down to it skiing is little more than a stupid human trick.  The value in skiing is in how YOU feel about it.  I'm not sure what "status" I have.  I'm good at my job and people like my lessons, but I could be very easily replaced.


I dont jump anything, I dont ski backcountry, steeps are just not fun.  In fact, when last I was at Jackson, I didnt even ski the hobacks.  And to you, this leaves me without a vote.  In fact, that is what is so upsetting here, you and others at your level feel/state that I, and others like me, shouldnt have a say or any opinion at all. 

I don't jump much and mostly ski inbounds these days as I am not allowed to take the public OB and the bulk of my skiing time is spent working.  Of course you have a "vote" or a right to your opinion.  You know we all have opinions and assholes and they both stinkbiggrin.gif.  I actually learned a good trick about how to carry my skis from a retarded kid that I was volunteering with.  I had never though about it and when he showed it to me, I was surprised that it was a good tip and it underscored the fact that I should be prepared to learn from anybody.  I currently use it with my guests who seem to have trouble managing their equipment.


And my theme here resonates that point, unwavering.


But we do and we are judging you because you are funny.  You are funny because you think that skiing is about keeping up with you.  You think skiing is about your perfect technique, and it is far from that.

How I wish that I had perfect technique!  I am actually not a hardcore technique instructor.  Some of my best lessons have focused on tactics and how to get the most out of the technique that my students already have.  Solid technique is an awesome thing to have, but is not the end all in recreational skiing.  As to keeping up with me, see my comments above.  There are plenty of skiers around who can smoke me and some of them are women!eek.gif


Free skiing is not about greatness as you define it, it is about how I and others like me define it because we define it for ourselves and we dont wait for your approval.  That is, I define for myself whatever I want to define it as, I am not subject to your opinion. You are not that kind of teacher.  It is close felt recreation it does not define most people as what they are.  skiing is not what I am, but I define what skiing is for me.

I'm having trouble parsing this paragraph out, but I "think" I AM that kind of teacher.  IMO the best skier is the one who has the most fun!


I do have an opinion, and it is valid whether you subscribe to it or not.  Infact, your subscription to my opiniion would disqualify it by the very nature of your opinion.   That is why the ski corportation has to have such a tight reign on teaching.  They have to first guard against this "take it or leave it" attitude so prevalent among instuctors prior to the big corporate push to fix the customer service at ski resorts of two decades ago.

Again I'm not sure what your driving at here.  The Corp. doesn't get that involved in my lesson plans.  I have demonstrated my competence to my supervisors and they trust me to teach what I feel is appropriate.  I certainly don't feel their "tight reign".  That would change if people started to complain, but I tend to get lot's of return students and positive comments about my lessons.  I really try hard to determine what my students are looking for in a lesson and tailor my "lesson plan" to deliver it to them.  Sometimes their expectations are not in-line with their abilities and I have to explain this to them.  I have never had a student that wanted a "bump lesson" for example get mad when I wouldn't take them into a bump run because IMO they lacked the necessary fundamental skills.  Instead, we worked on the skills deficiency and made progress towards their goals.  To me this is customer service.  


Teton, you cant disqualify opinion by absurdum.  This dont "ram advice down the throats of unwilling" level you bring to my statements is absurd on its face as it is obviously not what I am talking about and you know it.

I hope I know it, but that's not how you make it sound.


There are a million ways to do what I am talking about but you say that you wont do any of them.  And every time I ski, especially out west, neither do your buds give a crap about anyone who is not at their level.  That is sick and stupid.

Pretty broad statement about me and "my buds".  I find the Bro-Brahs a bit annoying, but mostly funny.  Kind of how I feel about you BTWwink.gif.  I do give a crap about everyone who comes to ski at my area.  I want them all to have a great time and come back soon.  Maybe take a few lessonsbiggrin.gif.  When I got secret shopped this year I got a paragraph at the bottom of the report that said what an enthusiastic ambassador for the area I was.  I probably do more of what you are driving at than most.  I am not pushy about it though.  I genuinely enjoy meeting people from all over the world and talking to them about all kinds of things.  I don't give out much unsolicited advice though.


And believe me we think it is funny, you just dont have a way to tap it because of where your head is at.  But the corporation you work for knows all about it.  Take heed.  The helmets they will make you wear now are part of a uniform set to keep you and your buds in line because you could not do it yourself.  They dont care a damn about your safety.  See it, know it, live it.  It is all over what you wrote to me.

I made my decision about helmets years ago.  I am staying out of the helmet "debate" regarding the new policy.  It doesn't affect me because I already choose to use one.  Your right, the Corp. isn't doing it for our safety.  They are doing it to capitulate to the WY DOE and the insurance companies.  I wish helmets helped as much as some people seem to think they do.


Infact Jackson, in the 70s, used to the place to go when we wanted to not be in the Breckenridge, Vail, Winter Park Real Estate crap.  Snowbird was always stuck up in that relaxed out of the way sort of "I am better than everyone so  dont talk to the new guy" way.  And Alta, well, it is still like that.  But Jackson didnt used to be like that, although it is now. 

Actually I think the "Tude" was much worse when I arrived in 89.


And you are part of it and that is why you dont see the pecking order problem.  Every resort has the pecking order.  You would do yoruself well to see it.  Maybe then you could help to extinguish it.

I don't see it because I don't participate in it.  That has to be the "best" way to extinguish it...  Don't you think?  There will always be some individuals who need to feel special like the hatchling Bro-Brah wannabes that I mentioned earlier.  I don't think it's as established and pervasive here as you make it out to be.


 In the 80s Jackson started to change and the cool people there noticed in obvious ways.  In the early 80s, it was changing over and becoming over developed adn by the late 80s or 90s, people were getting used to the increased plastic and real estate development attitude.  By the late 90s we noticed that it too had become plasticized and wrung out so unbefitting of the beautiful environs.  And everyone adapted to the new tude.  It is now a perfectly planned real estate developmetn like the rest of em now adn very colorado.  And with its pecking order.  You ask  Who is at the top?  Who cares, just stop it anyway you can.


But you cant stop it even the least little bit becaseu you are proud to not see it.  Silly.


Tell me again how is it that you cant see goofy things skiing by and cant talk about it to those sitting next to you?  Oh thats right, it is hard to deal with the public all day.  But the problem doesnt exist you say.  Hows that?

Oh Yea...  I like to have a little fun when something goofy skis by.  That doesn't mean that I look down on the Gapers.  I have spoken out as an advocate of the Gapers on this forum in the past.  I don't find it "hard" to deal with the public all day.  It's what my job is about and I love my Job.  It feels more natural to me the longer I do it.


I was going to look you up for some instruction but now it is obvious that you have serious disdain for your students so I wouldnt ski with you if you were the last guy on earth that could teach an edge release.  BFDIMO.

Sorry you feel that way.  I said before that I would be happy to take some runs with you.  I wouldn't ski with you all day unless you could "keep up".  If you are looking for a lesson and not a handful of quick tips you would need to take a lesson through the SS.  I don't know where you get the impression that I have a "serious distain" for my students.  I really enjoy working with 99.9% of the people I meet in lessons.  Being a Ski Instructor is a terrible way to get a Seasons Pass If you don't love the job and enjoy working with the public, it's just not worth it.  I am not "the last guy on earth that can teach an edge release".  I hope that you will get the instruction you are looking for even if it's not with me.  I would be happy to work with you and hope you at least look me up for a couple of runs if you come here.  I am curious about what you are like in person.


People like you shouldnt even be teachers, you just love skiing, you dont give a darn about skiers.  Nice representation.

Again...  Sorry you got that impression.  I strongly disagree and think my posts back me up.


Oh and keep your dumbass challenge to yourself, because the reality is that you obviouisly wouldnt be able to keep up with me.

I never challenged you.  Where I live issuing challenges is a good way to get hurtredface.gif.  There is always someone better.  My skiing is what it is and I am happy to let it speak for itself.  All I was saying is that if someone wants to ski with me, the best way to ensure it is to take a lesson with me.  I hope you might reconsider that option.  It's really up to you.









post #130 of 133

If she is a "38" she ain't Irish.


Most Irish carry Glock 9's anyway.


What do we call Ambassador crgildart now?  This calls for a set of protocols does it not.


Protocol #1.  Never break wind whilst' engaged in the composition of a thread in which the aforementioned Ambassador will be mentioned by name.


Protocol #2.  It is indeed acceptable to break wind whenst' any Barking Ambassador will be mentioned by inference but not so named.


Punishment for infractions for the violation of Protocol #1. and/or including but not excluding Protocol #2 are to be carried out thus:  The infractor or malfractee shall be stripped of all ergo and to wit,  haberdashery or any item so related to his or her comforts or ease.  The malcontent shall now be referred to as malabear and thus lashed to the device known as the "slow lift".  This lift may be of the types known as POMA, PONY, CHAIR (single, double, triple or quad), or any similar conveyance that is in no way enclosed or envelop the offender for the offender shall be so slathered in the honey of the common bee and so, with great ceremony the slow chair shall be set in motion.  Said chair shall, once set in motion remain in motion till shall transpire an event or series of events that shall cause the individual having been deemed the malabear to renounce the vile and low of life practices of the common boarder, to wit the passing of wind while in the presence of or composing said thread inasmuch that thread contains the direct reference to the Ambassador.   This disaverment of passing shall consist of three loud oaths, loud enough for all present to hear.


Any future or second violation shall make use of the POMA,, PONY, T-BAR with the malabear so haberdashed and lashed and lathered with honey but the speed shall be so slow as to allow bears to access, lick, paw and claw for the sole intent to maim or mutilate, however if but only if Barking Bears who are Bears in Good Standing shall hear the Malabear so renounce the passing of gas or wind in the direction of the Barking Ambassador,and in doing when hearing that denunciation regarding the flatulature infraction may cheer and sing in glee ... a loud chorus with sufficient gusto to chase the real bears from the honeyed and benuded carcas  ..... Ole, Ole In Free X3




post #131 of 133

JoeShotoe, do not be offended.  Not only do we have lawyers on us we have management and on a busy weekend you get no free ski.


As Phil Pug can attest, he drove up to the hill where I worked to meet me and a coach (Ripley), he got to spend a few minutes with Rip but by the time I got done with back to back lessons all morning, just the race up two flights to use a real rest room much less have time for lunch ... well Phil was gone.


Instruction is not a "will O' the wisp" advocation. it is a freaking grind most days.

post #132 of 133

That, my friend, was a clever and witty reply.


Just remember that I am an old and bitter woman, 'k?


And a Yankee fan.


That may be the deal killer, although them Sox have bounced back after that horrifying start.


Cheers, mate.



post #133 of 133

OK, that's enough.


Thread locked for review tomorrow.


Citations pending outcome.


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