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Connection of music to skiing movements?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

Hi - Not an earphones skier, but came across this in the NYT, mostly about why music appeals to emotions, but in a few places talks about link between music and the tempo of natural movements. Most interesting to me is implication that music that's not timed to natural patterns of movement may not "work" emotionally, wonder if inverse is true. If we listen to the wrong tempo or pattern, will it mess up our locomotor rhythms? Anyone had any personal experience in a mismatch? I've tried jogging to music, and it was a disaster; couldn't pay enough attention to my body's internal signals. Not a leg movement issue, though. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/science/19brain.html?pagewanted=1

post #2 of 24


 

  

 


Edited by comprex - 4/19/11 at 4:01pm
post #3 of 24

 

April 18, 2011

 

A long time ago, a ski coach told me that I did not have "rhythm" in my skiing. Now that I recall, it seems he said that I didn't make symmetrical turns i.e. left and right turns of the same size and shape.  The coach's name was Jonathan Jenkins (an examiner with PSIA-e and CSIA and Ski School Director) at that point in time.  Those of you who are Mt Tremblant, Mt Ellen (before it merged with Sugarbush), Rountop and later on Aspen/Buttermilk (I think) skiers probably know of him.  Anyway, he suggested that I sing or whistle a waltz tune while I was skiing.  This indeed helped me to develop symmetrical turns.  However, it doesn't work when I whistle "The Happy Wanderer".  Seems like it's tempo  was against my skiing rhythm.

 

Think snow,

 

CP


Edited by CharlieP - 4/18/11 at 3:17pm
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Most interesting to me is implication that music that's not timed to natural patterns of movement may not "work" emotionally

What's the definition of "working emotionally?"  If you listen to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring you'd have to be deaf not to hear emotion, yet the meter scheme and the dissonant harmony and orchestration are nowhere near "natural patterns."  There are many more examples.  This makes me wonder about the veracity of the article if they make inaccurate, sweeping statements or implications.

post #5 of 24

  


Edited by comprex - 4/19/11 at 4:01pm
post #6 of 24

Music that is good music for aerobic classes seams to have a rythem that I often find is nice to ski to. The number of strides a runner or a walker makes in a minute might be close to the beats in aerobic music?   Maybe this is somewhat of a natural tempo (would be interesting if it was same tempo as a cyclist.)

 

 The natural rythem I find the most fun is angle my skis accross the fall line to the same angle as the pitch of the hill with .382% of the time building compresion & .618 releasing of compresion. ( turn shape will form golden spiral) I like to do a fib number ( 1, 2,3,5,8, 13 etc) of turns the same size single, double or tripple beat to music & then spiral a fib number smaller or larger  with the average angle the skis makes to the fall line to that of the angle of the hill . I like to ski to James Brown or blues the most. Blues seams to allow for changes of beat easier i.e., for double or tripple beat. (iam basing the above on feel & examineing my tracks by eye)

post #7 of 24

 Fibonnaci can be found throughout nature i.e, in music & the body. Music is based on a 8 note octave. Piano has 8 white keys, 5 black 13 in all (fib) the musical harmony that seams to givve the ear its greatest satisfaction is the major sixth. The note E vibrates @ a ratio of .62500 to the note C. A mere .006966 away from the exact golden mean, the porportions of the major sixth set off good vibrations in cochlea  of the inner ear - an organ which is shaped in a logarithmic spiral.

 

 I do not yet understand how (most likely never will) to best use fib ratios with music to make skiing the most fun & pleasing to the eye but I think there is a connection.

post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Jet View Post

 Fibonnaci can be found throughout nature i.e, in music & the body. Music is based on a 8 note octave. Piano has 8 white keys, 5 black 13 in all (fib) the musical harmony that seams to givve the ear its greatest satisfaction is the major sixth. The note E vibrates @ a ratio of .62500 to the note C. A mere .006966 away from the exact golden mean, the porportions of the major sixth set off good vibrations in cochlea  of the inner ear - an organ which is shaped in a logarithmic spiral.

 

 I do not yet understand how (most likely never will) to best use fib ratios with music to make skiing the most fun & pleasing to the eye but I think there is a connection.

If you study ethnomusicology and/or the physics of music you will quickly discover that the 12 tone octave (8 tones to a scale or mode) is a construct that is not natural, but instead was created in order to allow for equal temperment of keyboard instruments so that music could freely modulate to all of the various keys.  That means that many of the notes we hear are really "out of tune" to the natural world.  This includes the major 6th.

 

Where you got the idea that the major 6th is the "harmony that seams (sic) to givve (sic) the ear its greatest satisfaction" is beyond me.  Go listen to a major 6th played in harmony, then listen to an octave, major third, perfect fourth, and a perfect 5th and come back and tell me you're more satisfied with the sound of the 6th.  If you do, I'll turn you on to the music of Arnold Schoenberg.  I don't think I'd like to ski to his music, however.
 

 

post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



If you study ethnomusicology and/or the physics of music you will quickly discover that the 12 tone octave (8 tones to a scale or mode) is a construct that is not natural, but instead was created in order to allow for equal temperment of keyboard instruments so that music could freely modulate to all of the various keys.  That means that many of the notes we hear are really "out of tune" to the natural world.  This includes the major 6th.

 

Where you got the idea that the major 6th is the "harmony that seams (sic) to givve (sic) the ear its greatest satisfaction" is beyond me.  Go listen to a major 6th played in harmony, then listen to an octave, major third, perfect fourth, and a perfect 5th and come back and tell me you're more satisfied with the sound of the 6th.  If you do, I'll turn you on to the music of Arnold Schoenberg.
 

 


I prefer to listen to Schoenberg while wearing my helmet with safety bar down and pole straps on thank you..

devil.gifsnowfight.gifjk.gifwords.gifduel.gifduck.gif

 

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post




I prefer to listen to Schoenberg while wearing my helmet with safety bar down and pole straps on thank you..

devil.gifsnowfight.gifjk.gifwords.gifduel.gifduck.gif

 

You prefer to listen to Schoenberg?  Wow.
 

 

post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



You prefer to listen to Schoenberg?  Wow.
 

 

 

Quote:
During the rise of the Nazi Party in Austria, his music was labeled, alongside jazz, as degenerate art.

 

 

World's first punk rocker?  Or was that Mozart?
 

 

post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post



 

 

 

World's first punk rocker?  Or was that Mozart?
 

 


I don't know if he was really the first, but I've always imagined that Charles Ives was.  Though I don't know if you can really be a punk and a multi-millionaire at the same time.

 

Edit:  I suppose it is possible to be a millionaire punk, just look at Donald Trump.

 

post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Jet View Post

 Music is based on a 8 note octave. Piano has 8 white keys, 5 black 13 in all 

Actually there are only 12 notes in a chromatic octave. 7 white keys and 5 black keys.  

post #14 of 24


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post



Actually there are only 12 notes in a chromatic octave. 7 white keys and 5 black keys.  


April 19, 2011

 

Hi SMJ:

 

Wondering when you would input into this "interesting" discussion about skiing, rhythm, fibonnaci numbers and golden spirals.  (see below for a graph of a golden spiral).

 

Golden Spiral

 

Hope you have a quick and speedy recovery from your injury.

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

ps:  never seen any skier ski this path, maybe except for ballet skiers.  Nice curves though.

 

post #15 of 24

Thanks Charlie,  not feeling very articulate recently and I've said so much on epic over the years about this topic I guess I just am reading.  In general feeling less epic-inspired these days!

 

I think I've seen someone ski that path though - extreme carvers!

post #16 of 24

 

Check out around 1:19 and 1:30 kind of the spiral!

 

post #17 of 24

April 19, 2011

 

Yes, I do see the spiral at those two points in time.  The carver makes a 360 to bring in the radius of the path.  Nice.  Thanks.

 

Think snow,

 

CP

post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post



Actually there are only 12 notes in a chromatic octave. 7 white keys and 5 black keys.  

To split hairs, there are actually 13 tones in the octave, you use one pitch twice, the tonic and its octave.  There are, however, only 12 different notes which is what you were getting at.
 

 

post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post


 


April 19, 2011

 

Hi SMJ:

 

Wondering when you would input into this "interesting" discussion about skiing, rhythm, fibonnaci numbers and golden spirals.  (see below for a graph of a golden spiral).

 

Golden Spiral

 

Hope you have a quick and speedy recovery from your injury.

 

Think snow,

 

CP

 

ps:  never seen any skier ski this path, maybe except for ballet skiers.  Nice curves though.

 

Ted Ligety finish line doughnut!  End of 2nd run 1:50

 


 

 

post #20 of 24

CharlieP

 

 A tapestry of fib relationships is often most effident in very good powder skiers when they porpuse in & out of the snow. The holes left will often be shell shaped i.e., the turn shape will be spiraled shape as well as the porpuse out of the snow. ( has the right look based on eye only)

 

From my experience I find it the most fun when the distance traveled .618 out of the snow & .382% of the distance traveled in the snow. (of course snow conditions must be ideal & I find it best if the ski is softer in tip then tail bending is spiral shape) Measuring from the bottom of the porpuse to the bottom of the next porpuse ( only by eye) seams to form the golden rectangle.

 

It would not surprise me the snow density increases based on fib from top to bottom, the speed of which the leg extends seams to be based on fib as is evidenced by nautilus strength training equipment which is designed to follow the natural strength path of the body. the fingers is composed of 3 bones in golden section to one another, takes the spiral shape when curled which allows one to pole swing a spiral shape if using three small fingers for triger fingers. There are other fib relationships found in the body which some how seam to allow to my eye perfect shell shaped holes to be made when skiing.

 

 I will often see a tapestry of fib relationships in skiers tracks & I dont think they were trying to make them.

 

 I could be wrong regarding music, I got the info from a book

 

 

post #21 of 24

April 19, 2011

 

Hi Cigrldart:

 

Yes at the end of the second run a beautiful golden spiral, very evident and very clear and plain to see.   Beautiful finish, even though Bode beat him both runs.  Did Bode jump the gun on the second run, since it seems quite startling to see Bodie with such a lead, almost a two gate lead on Ted right at the get go?  I watched it again to see if Bode jumped the gun, but it seems that he just had more explosion out of the start gate.  But still unbelievable display of power, strength and reaction time.

 

Hi PowderJet:

 

I'll have to take your word on good powder skiers follow the fib relations, since down here south of the Mason-Dixon line, we get powder maybe once a decade if we are lucky.  Also, even when I go up north or out west, my timing is bad and rarely hit powder days.  The approximately 2/3 of the time out of the snow and 1/3 of the time in the snow must just occur naturally for good powder skiers (or just good skiers), since I can't see a skier making a conscious effort trying to achieve these proportions while skiing.  Like you said, "don't think that they were trying to make them" sounds plausible if good skiing naturally follows these "golden rules".  Thanks for pointing this out and enlightening me.

 

Think snow,

 

CP

post #22 of 24

Ted's full circle turn after the finish gate demonstrates how much energy they keep through the turn, conversely how little energy they lose when turning, the key to their racing speed of course. When in racing, they say work the skis, this is what they are referring to, getting energy from the rebound of the ski when driven.

post #23 of 24

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post



You prefer to listen to Schoenberg?  Wow.
 

 

Well, I like Schoenberg's atonality, but I prefer music that has a sensation of travel, spaciousness (space music). Seriously, consider listening to the following pieces while skiing: Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2 and 3 (I played both of them), The Bells choral symphony; Prokofiev's Sonata No. 7; and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 15. I tried, and it gave me a gorgeous feeling. But I don't prefer listening with headphones, but rather remember the music in my brain and then listen to it in my brain. In fact, on my first try on a black diamond run, I was listening to portions of [Rachmaninoff's] Piano Concerto No. 3.

 

korolevspace
 

 


Edited by korolevspace - 5/29/11 at 4:53pm
post #24 of 24

Schoenberg is great for those suspense, think something big's gonna happen but never does, movie moments...

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