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pole straps, helmets, plus airbags and an avalung - it all comes together here - Page 3

post #61 of 134

I skimmed some of this thread, but didn't read it intently...

 

Anyway, isn't the point that this guy had a helmet cam, got caught in a slide and used his airbag, and just posted up the video as proof that the airbag works? (I know airbags are fairly new, until very recently were not even retailed in this country, only tested on dummies, etc).  For me, the video suggests that having a "guide" on a helicopter skiing expedition doesn't make you immune to slides.  Also, the guy caught something special on his helmet cam, and posted it to his vimeo and youtube accounts, and shared it on epicski... nothing wrong with that.

 

 

My own misc thoughts on topic... if ski film companies (like TGR, Warren Miller, etc) and ski magazines didn't place a heavy (or complete) emphasis on backcountry skiing (and pretty much sends the message that is the only way to have fun), then maybe a lot fewer people would be pressured to go ski the backcountry.  Let's face it, unless you are a Level 10 pro, there's not much that is going to be available to you in the backcountry that isn't available somewhere in-bounds... not saying you shouldn't go into the backcountry... just saying there is a HEAVY suggestion from different sources that you are not "getting the stoke" if you don't.  If people mainly go into the backcountry for powder, I can understand that somewhat.

post #62 of 134


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post




I think it is usually a waste to ski inbounds with an avalung, but it can make sense on some days and especially if you are going out of bounds.  Avalung is also useful for improving your chances for NASIDs incidents in tree-wells or accidental inversion in deep unconsolidated snow (ask any snowboarder).  As Beyond suggests, risk and slope condition is a continuum and not a fixed point.  If you ski backcountry on relatively fresh snow, you are never at zero risk, so having gear acknowledges the risks in the same way that a motorcycle rider might wear armor and a helmet against the contingency of the unexpected.  None of us goes out with the expectation of crashing, but shit happens and it might save your life to be prepared.

 

Ski cuts are all well and good, but every avalanche featured in this thread has one thing in common;  all of the fractures occur well down the slope at a rollover.  That is pretty common, and the change in aspect, slope, loading can be hard to read, even for experienced backcountry users.  Skiing with the avalung in your mouth is your hang-up.  It is the proper use of the tool.  Again, you can't achieve zero risk where this tool is appropriate, so using it the right way while still using all of your assessment and risk management tools is the right approach and does not necessarily mean you are taking higher risks as a result of the tool, but are mitigating the risks you would otherwise assume without the tool.  You can wear lungs and ABS and still have the option to back off.  Very little of the decision to drop or not should be affected by what you are wearing, and IMO most people that have made this kind of investment are pretty well versed in risk assessment and decision-making.  Sure there are some poseurs, but people that have invested in AT gear, and safety gear usually also invest in the training. 

 

The ones that worry me are the kids I see going through gates or (less often) accessing backcountry with no preparation or gear at all.  From what you have been saying, they should be the safest of all, but they actually assume all the risks without any ability to recognize the danger, let alone mitigate it.  If being prepared is equivalent to placing yourself at greater risk, then do not take an avy awareness class or level I or II training, do not carry a beacon, do not ski with more experienced friends, do not buy AT bindings, boots or related gear, and above all, do not buy an avalung or air bag.  While we are at it, take off that helmet.  Safety and rescue gear is the last line of defense, not the first, and its deployment is a consequence of failure in risk assessment and management. However it is still an indispensable part of a prepared individual's risk management.

 


blue mine.

that is not how I saw the runs. Both occurred at about turn 3 or 4 as I saw it. A rollover is hard to read, but often it creates stress a ways up from the actual rollover.

 

I still think you guys are mis-construing my comments on gear, but that's typing and reading I guess. I'm simply suggesting that the gear won't help if your main gear, your brain, is not making good calls. And all the films and advertisements are obscuring that reality for the novice.  Fear is better than Gear....hmmmm.

 

post #63 of 134

Dave, I think we're in agreement, if not saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

post #64 of 134

right on. that's the deeper truth of course.

post #65 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

The buzzed analogy is apt, but in the opposite way you maintain. buzzed is not on a sliding scale, you're impaired, endangered, and completely unaware of it. Like thinking: if this slope rips out, I'll just deploy a bunch of gear and cruise over the debris pile with a smile.

 


Yeah, agree about impairment. But what I meant by the analogy was that your actual probability of getting in a bad accident is the intersection of all kinds of continuous variables, not just being impaired in a legal sense. Some things outside your control (who else is nearing that red light you're ignoring), or whether it's just rained or a streetlight is out, or whether you've driven that route so many times that it's become what Wallace called a "cognitive map," so you're not even thinking about it when you're sober. Or things that are only marginally known by you (whether your blood alcohol is .076 or .32, what your version of the alcohol dehydrogenase gene is, how good your reflexes are to begin with) or things in your history (do you have good, average, or weak driving skills, have you ever been in a bad accident, have you driven while drunk before?).

 

Interesting to speculate if people who die in avalanches were thinking "OK, if something bad happens, the gear will save me." Or if the ones who survive credit their equipment because it's harder to just think about their survival being a roll of the dice. And if we could interview the others in their afterlife, they'd say the gear was useless. Massive sample bias. 

 

But in either case, bet they were brushing off anxiety at the top of the run with, "It's not gonna happen to me, not this day." Followed by, "So where do I start my line?" Denial of risk is key. Did Shane McConkey actually thought he might die in a particular stunt? Nope. He paid lip service to that in the abstract, in interviews, by shrugging or goofing it off. But any psychologist will tell you that when you're getting ready to do something risky that involves performance, your thoughts are all about pulling it off; you've already decided a bad outcome will not happen, or if it does, somehow you'll be OK anyway. Why do some people have sex without condoms? Why do they drive drunk? Why do they ski groomers fast near trees, let alone ski avalanches waiting to happen? Because "It won't happen to me. Not this particular time." Freud was about right on this one, for a change. Our defense mechanisms prevent us from actually confronting the idea of our own death because we'd be paralyzed by it. 

 

So we argue about how to reduce risk. wink.gif

 

 

 

post #66 of 134

Anyone but me watching this train wreck thinking that a little avy training and a lot of local knowledge go a lot farther than any particular practice or gear except having beacons? 

 

What's up with all the words.gifMy way's always the best and yours is stupid bickering?th_dunno-1[1].gif  Just makes you all look like idiots while the slab breaks under neath you...

post #67 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post




Yes, I agree that people die in avalanches due to poor decision making based on desire and excitement.  But I was talking about a more narrow scope, contrasting between people without gear and people thinking fancy gear will save them. That's all. I am more concerned about  the clueless ones. Anyone dropping $1000 on an ABS isn't going to be completely clueless. The experienced skiers and mountaineers who die, well, they might have made poor decisions, but they are at the very least informed; it doesn't lessen the tragedy, but they knew and accepted the risks they were taking. I can accept that. 

 

And ... ah, never mind. This thing is all over the place. All I can say is that it is a continuum. People aren't either pro or rec skiers, conditions aren't either stable or unstable, cuts aren't a sign of either competence or incompetence, just because snow doesn't slide to the dirt doesn't mean it isn't an avalanche. ...

 

Speaking of big slides, DSloan and I saw this Sunday on the way to Copper : Big Mike's in Officers Gulch. Went big, covered the bike path.

 

avy11.jpg?w=468&h=312

 

avy4.jpg?w=428&h=640



This is why I'm never mountain biking again without my airbag, avalung, and shovel.  In fact, I should just limit my hobbies to base jumping to avoid this concern altogether, since I am neither a professional skier not mountain biker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am kidding.

 

post #68 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

Anyone but me watching this train wreck thinking that a little avy training and a lot of local knowledge go a lot farther than any particular practice or gear except having beacons? 

 

What's up with all the words.gifMy way's always the best and yours is stupid bickering?th_dunno-1[1].gif  Just makes you all look like idiots while the slab breaks under neath you...


Uh, maybe what's up is that 1) for many of us the season's over and we have four or five months to kill, and b) a website devoted to typing comments about skiing, ah, necessarily uses a lot of words? Anyway, IMO, this particular train wreck is pretty civil - and relevant - compared to most, disagreement ain't always bickering, and how people define risks, react to them, is pretty key to being alive. Do you get vaccinated? Tell your gf or wife that those shoes look great on them? Make sure you don't have both at the same time? Wash your hands before you sit down to eat? Check your car's brake fluid once in a while? Get your annual checkup? Wear a bike helmet? Sunglasses? Tell yourself you'll start working out tomorrow? Go pray in church for forgiveness? Act conciliatory when Mike Tyson frowns at you? All acts of risk assessment or denial. Skiing just gives us a common currency. 

 

post #69 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post




Uh, maybe what's up is that 1) for many of us the season's over and we have four or five months to kill, and b) a website devoted to typing comments about skiing, ah, necessarily uses a lot of words? Anyway, IMO, this particular train wreck is pretty civil - and relevant - compared to most, disagreement ain't always bickering, and how people define risks, react to them, is pretty key to being alive. Do you get vaccinated? Tell your gf or wife that those shoes look great on them? Make sure you don't have both at the same time? Wash your hands before you sit down to eat? Check your car's brake fluid once in a while? Get your annual checkup? Wear a bike helmet? Sunglasses? Tell yourself you'll start working out tomorrow? Go pray in church for forgiveness? Act conciliatory when Mike Tyson frowns at you? All acts of risk assessment or denial. Skiing just gives us a common currency. 

 

I tried all that and still got buried up to my chin strap..snowfight.gif
 

 

post #70 of 134

Yeah, I know the feeling...beercheer.gif

post #71 of 134

Well worked out and some good information exchanged. thx. beercheer.gif

post #72 of 134

Avalungs are designed to be worn and put in your mouth when you have worries about the safety of the conditions, not after you find yourself involved in an avalanche.You can't reliably put the thing in your mouth during an emergency, you need to have it in your mouth before the sh*t hits the fan. I own one and I put the mouthpiece in my mouth when we feel that the conditions merit, such as upon deciding to cross questionable sections one at a time, or needing to ski a section one at a time; any time we think that there is a clear risk of slide.

 

Trauma often kills in avalanches, not just asphyxiation. An air bag might help reduce the traumas by keeping you under less snow, but if you get dragged over a cliff or through the trees, it doesn't really matter if you are on top of the snow or not; you are likely going to get pretty banged up.

 

You need knowledge to understand how to avoid bad conditions. Gear may improve your odds of survival. Expecting gear to keep you safe is stoopid.

post #73 of 134

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drdevon View Post

This is why I'm never mountain biking again without my airbag, avalung, and shovel.  In fact, I should just limit my hobbies to base jumping to avoid this concern altogether, since I am neither a professional skier not mountain biker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am kidding.

 


(This F***ing editor sucks. I've entered a post three times to have it F***ed up by the editor. One more try and I'm out of here.)
 

You forgot to include your probe and beacon in the list of gear you'll bring. wink.gif

 

In all seriousness, there is a sign, at least at the Frisco end of the path, that warns of avalanche danger.


Edited by MastersRacer - 5/12/11 at 10:06am
post #74 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Avalungs are designed to be worn and put in your mouth when you have worries about the safety of the conditions, not after you find yourself involved in an avalanche.You can't reliably put the thing in your mouth during an emergency, you need to have it in your mouth before the sh*t hits the fan. I own one and I put the mouthpiece in my mouth when we feel that the conditions merit, such as upon deciding to cross questionable sections one at a time, or needing to ski a section one at a time; any time we think that there is a clear risk of slide.

 

Trauma often kills in avalanches, not just asphyxiation. An air bag might help reduce the traumas by keeping you under less snow, but if you get dragged over a cliff or through the trees, it doesn't really matter if you are on top of the snow or not; you are likely going to get pretty banged up.

 

You need knowledge to understand how to avoid bad conditions. Gear may improve your odds of survival. Expecting gear to keep you safe is stoopid.

blue mine
 

This is the paradox worth discussing. And here's an idea I've read, not mine; but if a skier feels conditions represent a clear risk, such that the avalung goes in your mouth, why are you there? (not critiquing MR). If BC or that line were the only way to do the sport of skiing, the acceptable risk concept would be the guiding principal. But BC and Mountaineering are only one small part of skiing, and alternates (avi-controlled slopes) could be selected on certain days.

 

I would add to the factors that can not be mitigated by avalung or airbag, that often when caught and moving in the sluff or avalanche your body gets bent and twisted, the scorpion being one of the more terrifying positions your body can be forced into. My son and I have both been "scorpioned" and it's humbling to say the least. 

 

I think we can all acknowledge that ski mountaineering is the apex of the sport. But like all mountaineering, the stakes are very high.

 

post #75 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

I skimmed some of this thread, but didn't read it intently...

 

Anyway, isn't the point that this guy had a helmet cam, got caught in a slide and used his airbag, and just posted up the video as proof that the airbag works? (I know airbags are fairly new, until very recently were not even retailed in this country, only tested on dummies, etc).  For me, the video suggests that having a "guide" on a helicopter skiing expedition doesn't make you immune to slides.  Also, the guy caught something special on his helmet cam, and posted it to his vimeo and youtube accounts, and shared it on epicski... nothing wrong with that.

 

 

My own misc thoughts on topic... if ski film companies (like TGR, Warren Miller, etc) and ski magazines didn't place a heavy (or complete) emphasis on backcountry skiing (and pretty much sends the message that is the only way to have fun), then maybe a lot fewer people would be pressured to go ski the backcountry.  Let's face it, unless you are a Level 10 pro, there's not much that is going to be available to you in the backcountry that isn't available somewhere in-bounds... not saying you shouldn't go into the backcountry... just saying there is a HEAVY suggestion from different sources that you are not "getting the stoke" if you don't.  If people mainly go into the backcountry for powder, I can understand that somewhat.


Backcountry skiing is a lot of things to a lot of different people. First off the terrain that is lift serviced is miniscule in comparision to the nearly unlimited bc ops. For me it's a sense of accomplishment and mountain solence shared w/ trusted friends/partners. Any yahoo can buy a lift ticket and be transported to the top of a mountain that the nice guys and gals in the red coats have done their best to make safe for you. Nobodies gonna by ski porn of footage of guys digging pits,doing beacon drills, or backing off lines to ski back down skintracks, or milking a few good turns on a short steep pitch w/ lesser consquences   Had plenty of tours that weren't all about fun. Toured a lot of high and considerable danger days last season cause that was the hand that was dealt ,learned a lot though, even if ment skiing naturaled or cornice dropped bed surfaces weren't exactly "fun" i'ts part of the gaining of experience. As was watching someone go for a scarry ride in a slide on a low danger day in the midst of a low danger week. Any gear that potentially allows you to return at the trailhead at the end of a tour is good in my book cause that's the bottom line for me. Then again any yahoo can buy a bunch of saftey gear take an avvy class or become an interwebular expert by reading.

The one comment I didn't see mentioned was the difference between being helied onto peaks vrs.skinning up them is the ablity to gain more insight into the changing snow conditions on aspects elavations, small test slopes etc vrs a few pits or previouisly skied terrain. I've never been heliskiing or guided so not having experienced that. I'll  refrain from further comment or nonexperienced conjucture.

Interesting thread with the ussual good interesting posts by those who tend to post in that manner and clueless crap by those who tend to post such.

Glad everything worked out for the bro involved in the vid.
 

 

post #76 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post




Backcountry skiing is a lot of things to a lot of different people. First off the terrain that is lift serviced is miniscule in comparision to the nearly unlimited bc ops. For me it's a sense of accomplishment and mountain solence shared w/ trusted friends/partners. Any yahoo can buy a lift ticket and be transported to the top of a mountain that the nice guys and gals in the red coats have done their best to make safe for you. Nobodies gonna by ski porn of footage of guys digging pits,doing beacon drills, or backing off lines to ski back down skintracks, or milking a few good turns on a short steep pitch w/ lesser consquences   Had plenty of tours that weren't all about fun. Toured a lot of high and considerable danger days last season cause that was the hand that was dealt ,learned a lot though, even if ment skiing naturaled or cornice dropped bed surfaces weren't exactly "fun" i'ts part of the gaining of experience. As was watching someone go for a scarry ride in a slide on a low danger day in the midst of a low danger week. Any gear that potentially allows you to return at the trailhead at the end of a tour is good in my book cause that's the bottom line for me. Then again any yahoo can buy a bunch of saftey gear take an avvy class or become an interwebular expert by reading.

The one comment I didn't see mentioned was the difference between being helied onto peaks vrs.skinning up them is the ablity to gain more insight into the changing snow conditions on aspects elavations, small test slopes etc vrs a few pits or previouisly skied terrain. I've never been heliskiing or guided so not having experienced that. I'll  refrain from further comment or nonexperienced conjucture.

Interesting thread with the ussual good interesting posts by those who tend to post in that manner and clueless crap by those who tend to post such.

Glad everything worked out for the bro involved in the vid.
 

 



If you are a level 10 skier, like I said, that is true... if not, it's all about the "expedition" experience and powder.

 

I know alot of people do it to feel accomplishment, and supremacy... think about, at the root of it, WHY "accomplishment" is felt.  There's been a surge in backcountry skiing in recent years... and that's been fueled by marketing and ski media attention... it's not like all of a sudden everyone just decided on their own they were going to go out-of-bounds.  It is a movement

 

This is just the problem... proving it is about feeling superior to "yahoos" who go to ski areas to enjoy themselves.  Backcountry skiers should not criticize these people or suggest they are any less of individuals because they choose not to risk their lives in the backcountry.

 

What were the tours about, then?

 

I'm not sure any of these "yahoos" much care how much or how good anybody is who goes beyond the ropes.

 

Posts like this nonono2.gif

post #77 of 134

I had a thought while reading this.  Many of the folks that live the life and ski the wickedest terrain do so on pretty limited income.  I have to wonder what kind of home made avy gear is out there.   I would think that an avalung type device could be made pretty easily with some plastic tubing, hose clamps,  and a few other things.  As long as we insist on purporting individual expertise in these matters let's see some individual solutions to otherwise expensive paraphernalia.

worthless.gif

 

post #78 of 134

Only Yahoos give themselves skiers levels and post in colored font brah

post #79 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post


This is the paradox worth discussing. And here's an idea I've read, not mine; but if a skier feels conditions represent a clear risk, such that the avalung goes in your mouth, why are you there? (not critiquing MR). 

 



As was mentioned earlier, there are also many people who would say, "If you have to wear a helmet in a sport, or if it's possible to die while participating, Why are you there?" Everyone's level of accepted risk is different. That's such a simple concept, I don't understand the issue. 

post #80 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post

Only Yahoos give themselves skiers levels and post in colored font brah



brah?  is this TGR???

 

color coding is for your benefit to match up replies with content from your original post.

post #81 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post





As was mentioned earlier, there are also many people who would say, "If you have to wear a helmet in a sport, or if it's possible to die while participating, Why are you there?" Everyone's level of accepted risk is different. That's such a simple concept, I don't understand the issue. 


Do you have personal experience actually being pulled down a slope in a sluff or avalanche? I really would need to know that to know your level of understanding the issue?

 

SFB, get over yourself. Seriously doubt you're such a big deal. Pontificating, put downs, last words. come on.

 

post #82 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post




Do you have personal experience actually being pulled down a slope in a sluff or avalanche? I really would need to know that to know your level of understanding the issue?

 


popcorn.gif

 

post #83 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post




Do you have personal experience actually being pulled down a slope in a sluff or avalanche? I really would need to know that to know your level of understanding the issue?


 

Okay, I lied in  my last post. I'm not just popcorn.gif.

 

Davluri, you spend a lot of time questioning other people's experience and, seemingly, right to an opinion (to be fair, that is not what you wrote, but it is certainly what you intimated). Then you offer this brief account:

Quote:

Patrol once let a friend and I ski a run that had been closed earlier. He didn't have time to check it, but he wanted to let us have it. He said, yes, you can go into the slot, just do a cut. We were like, heck yeah! we're on it. An epic run ensued in a couple minutes, after Vince made an aggressive cut and the snow held.

 

You had an epic run. Awesome. But, other than this one instance, you don't offer any examples of experiences that give you knowledge on this topic. However, you spend a lot of time questioning other people's experience and ability to have an informed opinion. What's the motivation to discredit everyone who says something with which you disagree?

post #84 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post




Do you have personal experience actually being pulled down a slope in a sluff or avalanche? I really would need to know that to know your level of understanding the issue?

 .

 


never mind
Edited by segbrown - 5/12/11 at 2:59pm
post #85 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

I skimmed some of this thread, but didn't read it intently...

 

Anyway, isn't the point that this guy had a helmet cam, got caught in a slide and used his airbag, and just posted up the video as proof that the airbag works? (I know airbags are fairly new, until very recently were not even retailed in this country, only tested on dummies, etc).  For me, the video suggests that having a "guide" on a helicopter skiing expedition doesn't make you immune to slides.  Also, the guy caught something special on his helmet cam, and posted it to his vimeo and youtube accounts, and shared it on epicski... nothing wrong with that.

 

 

My own misc thoughts on topic... if ski film companies (like TGR, Warren Miller, etc) and ski magazines didn't place a heavy (or complete) emphasis on backcountry skiing (and pretty much sends the message that is the only way to have fun), then maybe a lot fewer people would be pressured to go ski the backcountry.  Let's face it, unless you are a Level 10 pro, there's not much that is going to be available to you in the backcountry that isn't available somewhere in-bounds... not saying you shouldn't go into the backcountry... just saying there is a HEAVY suggestion from different sources that you are not "getting the stoke" if you don't.  If people mainly go into the backcountry for powder, I can understand that somewhat.


Just want to offer up another opinion.  Thirty or forty years ago there wasn't a lot of back country hype, and I certainly wasn't a level 10 skier, yet I was still drawn beyond the ropes to the cliff areas and untouched snow.  My main draw at the time were long steep sections where you could feel the adrenalin charge from the sheer speed, but it takes almost no skill to straight line a near cliff, maybe a little judgement on what sort of compression you can bear and what you can clear on the jumps, but that's about it.  I also enjoyed the untouched powder and joy of exploring.

 

post #86 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post




Just want to offer up another opinion.  Thirty or forty years ago there wasn't a lot of back country hype, and I certainly wasn't a level 10 skier, yet I was still drawn beyond the ropes to the cliff areas and untouched snow.  My main draw at the time were long steep sections where you could feel the adrenalin charge from the sheer speed, but it takes almost no skill to straight line a near cliff, maybe a little judgement on what sort of compression you can bear and what you can clear on the jumps, but that's about it.  I also enjoyed the untouched powder and joy of exploring.

 


That's interesting... did you guys have beacons then? (obviously no airbags or avalungs)... if not, was it an even bigger risk then?

 

post #87 of 134

Davie admits he never skis beyond the resort boundary and brags about the time the patrol opened a run when he was at the top of it as if they were doing him a special favor or wanted his friend to ski cut it to make it safe before allowing the general public, haha and then says if you haven't been in an avalanche you don't have enough experience to be exposed to his full knowledge.

 

It would be dangerous to tell you too much. Too funny!

post #88 of 134

c'mon Ghost.

 

30 or 40 years ago the term straight line did not exist. People schussed. And not like today at all. Many reasons.

 

Downhill racing was the concept for speed, and maybe 30 years ago the beginnings of speed skiing. But off resort in those days, people, I'm thinking including you, did not schuss massive lines next to cliffs, off the resort and off the race course and with no grooming. The style was to make check turns, platforming. I've been hearing about your speed for years now, but this statement has me very skeptical. Are you sure you're explaining this accurately??

post #89 of 134

Are you suggesting some one is "full of it"?

post #90 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

Davie admits he never skis beyond the resort boundary and brags about the time the patrol opened a run when he was at the top of it as if they were doing him a special favor or wanted his friend to ski cut it to make it safe before allowing the general public, haha and then says if you haven't been in an avalanche you don't have enough experience to be exposed to his full knowledge.

 

It would be dangerous to tell you too much. Too funny!



Now that's plain bs. There is no contradiction in my post, and bragging is your projection; I don't ever brag; it's not necessary or productive. To say so is a cheap shot. As is the term Davie, or full knowledge. I don't go BC because to me, at my age, the hiking is a waste of time, getting 4,000 vert instead ot 35K just doesn't do it for me. I'm simply a resort skier. And it's not something I apologize for. Have actually done a few BC peaks, but it's not my thing, and saying so is not admitting anything.

 

Patrol was definitely doing me and V a special favor. What the f do you know? man you suck, saying something like that.

 

Skiing Squaw in a storm has all the elements of bc (minus navigation), said that already. Doubt it? $crew you then. Taken a ride, ever in your life, T15? Didn't think so. and it is necessary 'cause you can't get it from a book or an explanation. It is like talking to someone about water if they've never touched it. Could you explain it? could you explain how it could drown you?

 

Your slams need some humor to not be mean. Man, this is weird.

 

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