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pole straps, helmets, plus airbags and an avalung - it all comes together here - Page 5

post #121 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post



 

Whoa dude, you should check the avy report once in a while.

 

I don't dig your style or agree with you often, but I'm sorry for harassing you.

 

Quote:


I began skiing a long time ago. I'd like to believe the rest, but none of it is really true..

 

 

Hah, you can get down most very tough stuff, just not looking as pretty as we would all like to.
 

 

post #122 of 134

I'm not going to admit to looking less pretty than any of us would like either. but that's closer to the mark. redface.gif


Edited by telerod15 - 5/15/11 at 9:28am
post #123 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post



 

Whoa dude, you should check the avy report once in a while.

 

I don't dig your style or agree with you often, but I'm sorry for harassing you.

 


 

 


ummmm, errrr......, thank you??

 

That's not a bad safety record for over 1,000 days. never happened till I moved to Tahoe. prob 'cause you can't get to the hill during storms like those unless you are already there.

 

My heritage is German. Something about a different way of speaking.

 

Nobody cares what you think of my style or how often you agree with my opinions and information, so how about you just stuff it moron.  And stick your lame apology where the sun don't shine, Toddy.

edit: comment TR

 


Edited by davluri - 5/15/11 at 4:42pm
post #124 of 134

You probably woulda died if you were wearing a tranceiver when that happened.

post #125 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post

You probably woulda died if you were wearing a tranceiver when that happened.


This is kind of an interesting comment, even though it is sarcastic.  The one time I required assistance getting out of a hole, the transceiver made no difference because all of the other procedures we had worked properly.  Skiing with two other buddies with pre-arranged meetup points close enough together to get to the last man down (me) if he failed to show at the meetup.  I had all the customary gear at that time, but it was the planning and safe procedures that made the difference.

 

The point of this thread was always that it's not about the gear, but all the things you do that add up in the event things go wrong anyway.

 

post #126 of 134

Good not to need the transceiver. I always transmit on storm day, or any deep day, but know that such a rescue is not going to be pleasant or certain.

 

It is so hard to get the buddy system going. example: I'm skiing a deep new layer with my son. We have a plan to ski together and meet at the bottom of the first large face. We make the plan on the chair. As SOON as we get off the lift and push off, my son (18 yrs) calls out to me:  "I'm going to jump diagonal, see you at the place." I really didn't know he could jump diagonal and still get to the meet so I blew it off, thought he may have meant meet at the road. He actually did get there and was pissed I didn't, just 'cause he wasted time on a powder day. What a mess. Glad the snow stayed put.

post #127 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post



... As far as being "pro" I think it might not be unreasonable to require backcountry skiers to have minimal formal avalanche awareness training.  A level I course is usually sufficient to let people know what their limitations are and help them make good (conservative) decisions and to understand group dynamics.

 


There had been a similar debate for some time in climbing circles, and they wisely decided on going the informal mentorship and/or let people figure it out themselves approach.  (The "Appies" in the east, for instance, had a "rating" system that tried to control someone's climbing progression for a bit.)  There's nothing bad per se about taking avalanche courses, but a large number of people do seem to do this and then learn just enough to feel secure getting in harm's way.  And some of the most knowledgeable people out there don't have any formal training. 

 

 

 

 

 

post #128 of 134


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

"the whole slope fractures and slides for a long distance..." does not have anything to do with the definitions. dying or almost dying in moving snow does not make a slough into an avalanche either. I don't know who you think you are being loyal or helpful to, but you are not getting to the truth of what happened, IMO, nuff said, you're welcome to think whatever.

 

the important message may be that sloughs are deadly, which is totally true. an avalanche...you don't even want to be there.

 

and the guys on the scene yelling "avalanche!! avalanche!!" .....weird. wouldn't people who know their business say: "It's ripping out.... or....there's a fracture.... or...he cut the slab...or... uh, oh!...."

 

clearly, I'm antagonistic to that little group, whatever they are doing, so FWIW, to me, the clip doesn't represent any kind of knowledge or heroism or great skiing as you guys seem to see in it.


Quoting to stress again that the internet, particularly people who don't ski bc but post a lot, can always use a little skepticism, particularly when attempts to backfill ludicrous statements with a lot more posts are made.

 

post #129 of 134

I' really interested in how hard it was to insert the avalung and pull the cords for the airbags. You were tumbling around like crazy, and I'm impressed by how you managed to do this. I imagine a lot of people could panic and not manage to do either.

post #130 of 134

check comments on yesterday's thread on BC death, TGR: Avi death on Torreys, post #14 and #15 are relevant


Edited by davluri - 5/27/11 at 6:49am
post #131 of 134


yesterday is 5/25

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

check comments on yesterday's BC death, TGR: Avi death on Torreys, post #14 and #15 are relevant



 

post #132 of 134

Not very experienced in the OB, just read the whole thread on TGR. Highly recommended, nice back and forth about risk management, cuts, etc. FWIW, #14 and #15 are not about the fatality, relevant only in that they involved a group that made bad decisions about where to ski and got swept into some rocks (photos later in thread show just how bad a decision), somehow survived. Airbags wouldn't have helped them, sure, but don't think they prove much about gear - or what to call sliding snow - except that no gear can fix bad judgement.

 

I posted there a few things I know about risk management from climbing, but I'm struck by how much of all this is not gear or training but human factors. Eg, what risk level we're predisposed to go for, how much of our decision making about probabilities is deeply irrational. Personally, I'm struck by the SR call guy who says that with a wife and kids who moved to Colorado for his benefit, he's decided he can't take the kind of risks he assumed he could. Kind of the alternative universe McConkey.  th_dunno-1[1].gif

post #133 of 134

Personal insults and comments deleted.  No explanation required.

post #134 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

... just read the whole thread on TGR. Highly recommended, nice back and forth about risk management, cuts, etc. FWIW, #14 and #15 are not about the fatality, relevant only in that they involved a group that made bad decisions about where to ski and got swept into some rocks (photos later in thread show just how bad a decision), somehow survived. Airbags wouldn't have helped them, sure, but don't think they prove much about gear - or what to call sliding snow - except that no gear can fix bad judgement.

 

I posted there a few things I know about risk management from climbing, but I'm struck by how much of all this is not gear or training but human factors....


If you look at climbing accidents, you generally do in fact see multiple sets of mistakes, plus just plain bad luck working out that this time, those mistakes came home.  While climbing gear is infinitely better than in, say, the mid-70s, the quality of the gear doesn't really relate to safety per se.  Let's say someone is thinking about starting a long climb, but there are thunderclouds rapidly building, their partner is a bit wigged out, they are distracted by both their partner and an argument they had with their wife earlier, and they're in a rush to make it back home by 6 pm, but they really want to get this climb in -- just looking at that setup, it's pretty clear that it's not optimal.

 

In this case, you likewise had obviously bad conditions and some bad luck thrown in, along with a weekend.  All you have to do is, say, read Tremper and Fredston, and say:  baked snow, hard freeze, then fresh snow and windloading -- spicey.  You don't have to "learn" from a given accident to know this.

 

One other point of commonality with climbing is the bizarre tendency of people who don't actually do the activity to try to make pronouncements about safety issues, or to try to posture in the wake of accidents.  Not only is it disrespectful, it is also very unhelpful, as the misinformation such uninformed people can spread can hurt both the sport overall and sometimes confuse people new to the sport who actually are trying to DO the activity.

 

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