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# Test Time

Ok all you tech heads, heres a test for you.

The picture below is captured at mid transition.  Tell us if the transition is going to be pivoted, brushed/pushed or arc to arc, and why.

Answer without looking at any of the posted answers, so your thoughts are your own.  I'll hold off on providing the answer for a couple days, to let everyone of the regulars here have a shot at answering.

Yes, I do know the answer for sure.  I also have the subsequent frames.

Have fun!

I guessing here since I barely know what I'm talking about.

Pivoted.

In my thinking, its not arc to arc because he is on one ski at this moment.

Its not brushed/pushed because I do not know what that is

Looks like a pivot move to me.

I'll take a shot at it.

There is no way this turn can be carved arc-to-arc.  The upper body is aggressively turned towards the apex of the new turn, while the skis continue to move in the old turn's direction, with at least one of them in the air.  The pelvis is turned along with the shoulders in the new turn direction, so the entire upper body is set up for the new turn.  It's ready to provide the torque for rotating both skis in the new direction.  There will be a strong pivot of the skis as soon as the racer unwinds.

This pivot can not involve immediate engagement of the skis.  How could it?  After pivoting, the skis will be pointing almost 60 degrees against the actual direction of travel.  The racer will let them slide out to the side (not pushing them, just riding them) until he decides he can engage them.  Then he'll head off in a carve in the new turn direction.

No doubt he knows about how much time this slide will take, and he has taken the distance he'll travel before engagement into account.  Hooking the skis up at the right moment will bring him around the gate just where he wants to be, if things go right.

Edited by LiquidFeet - 4/14/11 at 11:46am
This would be easier to prove if we could see the next gate. Look at the other ski tracks at his tips. The tail of his outside ski is still airborne and that ski should be coming under the Bending Forces by now. He can't apply the Force yet because his hips are still over his skis, so no edge angle is possible. This guy is so late that he will have to jam and make those side-ways chatter-marks and the special DTT DTT DTT noise... Include this special noise in your list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick .

The picture below is captured at mid transition.  Tell us if the transition is going to be pivoted, brushed/pushed or arc to arc, and why.

First of all, the question does not make sense. The frame IS at mid-transition, therefore transition is not "going to be", it is happening in the frame presented

Secondly, the position shown is a fairly standard transition position, from which either "pivoted", "brushed/pushed" (whatever that is), or "arc-to-arc" edge engagement is possible. (That's sort of an idea, to have a good established transition from which racer can choose several tactics, depending on each situation).

The choice would depend on a particular gate combination (which actually is not visible here).  If the course is set fairly open, then the racer can try "arc-to-arc". If the gates are set with an decent offset, racer will have to redirect skis before edge set in order to accommodate to course.

Lastly, why entitle the post as "Test Time"? "Test" of what? By whom? For what end purpose? Ability to guess the contents of OP's photo portofolio? The remaining sequence may as well show the racer losing an edge, straddling a gate and DNFing...

CM is aft, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick

Ok all you tech heads, heres a test for you.

The picture below is captured at mid transition.  Tell us if the transition is going to be pivoted, brushed/pushed or arc to arc, and why.

Answer without looking at any of the posted answers, so your thoughts are your own.  I'll hold off on providing the answer for a couple days, to let everyone of the regulars here have a shot at answering.

Yes, I do know the answer for sure.  I also have the subsequent frames.

Have fun!

Ok, Im not going to look at other postings to be unbiassed.

Is the transition going to be?

• Pivotted
• Brushed/Pushed
• Arc to Arc

If we look at the skier we can see the following:

• He is in the air
• His legs are flexed/retracted
• He is heavily countered/anticipated
• There is a lot of wind up
• He is throwing his hips out (in ref to the new turn)

I would say that the transition is deffinetly pivotted. To me it looks like the gates are set very tight. Thats why he did a deep retraction turn with lots of rebound in order to quickly move his legs and skis from one side to the other without having to move too much mass arround. Think car suspension. As he unweights and comes off the snow he can easily pivot the skis as an unwinding effect to square up. Counter at the end of the turn, anticipation as he released the turn and square as his skis square up to his upper body.

I also think that there is a coupling between Pivotted and Brushed. I think that brushing needs pivotting. At least momentarily. The outcome of the pivot is skis brushing. But not for very long. The pivot and the setup for this turn is for redirecting his skis but they will hook up in a clean carve later at the gate. When skis pivot and if they are on the snow they always brush their edges or bases along the snow.

But its not impossible that the skier initiated a clean carve. I took the liberty of expanding on the photos. The big question is how the guy is going to tip his skis. If he does so with his knees by rotating his femures it would look like this:

Like this:

Pushed to an arc

why?

because that is exactly how I would stand if I needed to do a turn like that. The foot squirt lets the skis get away from you quicker while they are unweighted but you still carved or nearly carved from the apex to turn finish. catch and release skiing.  Also looking at his line arc to arc appears impossible from where he is at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snownat

CM is aft, right?

Yes. In that frame. CM will move forward when the outside leg gets extended. Some call it "pulling the skis back underneath you" except its just the outside ski. The inside ski leg remains flexed and CM reamins aft in ref to that skis BoS. Put too much weight on your inside foot and you will get caught in the back seat.

Trick question!  This is not performance skiing.  Show us a 21st century skier.  Clue 1 -- the old stance / new inside ski has been lifted and tipped more downhill than the uphill ski which is a move that died out of performance skiing with the dinosaurs (and red-suited devils.)  The 2nd clue is that he's stuck in the "toilet seat" stance from excessive flexion/retraction.  Clue 3 is too much hip counter ... square up and be modern.

sharpedges, I think that both skis are completely flat. No ski is tipped more or less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6

sharpedges, I think that both skis are completely flat. No ski is tipped more or less.

Look at the boot cuffs and then look at the uphill ski and reassess.

The anticipated position suggests some unwinding will occur but my question is when and how? He's not hanging onto a blocking pole plant like Josh, so the shoulder and upper torso position is likely a function of being in a countered stance at the edge release. Will the legs uncoil and cause the skis to pivot? Maybe but I suspect the tracks left by previous racers are more than likely the biggest clue to the second half of his transition. Many of them show a trench starting at the rise line and his skis are on line to do that. The only question is if he can get the skis back onto the snow and the edges engaged by the rise line. Not a problem IMO. It's also worth noting that the arcs in the snow don't pass all that close to the red gate so letting the skis run forward is also a likely outcome. Will he redirect the skis? Again the tracks suggest a minimal redirecting would be needed. Why I say that is that more than likely he will ski the same line as the previous racers and the tracks immediately in front of his skis are almost parallel to his skis. Of course I'm assuming a lot and the camera angle allows his line through the previous turn to be hidden from view. So I could be totally wrong but unless he is late and low I don't see the need for a strong redirecting move through the rest of the transition. Is it A2A? Well with both skis in the air that is a bit of a stretch to call it that but like I just said I doubt he will use a strong redirecting pivot either. Am I being vague and not offering a clear and definitive answer? YUP! I suspect Rick has offered this so called test to follow up on an idea he offered in a recent thread and I am curious to see his explanation.

Edited by justanotherskipro - 4/14/11 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges

Look at the boot cuffs and then look at the uphill ski and reassess.

You should not look at boot cuffs. You should look at the skis. Thats what counts. BTW, he is not stuck in the toilet seat. That is a missconseption. Its a quick retraction turn and his hips are momentarily behind his feet. In the toilet seat yes, but not "stuck". There is a huge difference. Look at how he is in the air. Also, there is also not "too" much hip counter. He keeps his upper body facing down in the fall line. This causes his hips and upper body to ski in and out of counter/anticipation. People that are not skiing gates and uses a lot of counter usually counter in the high C. These guys dont. They are anticipated in the high C and square up at apex.

Well fellas I'm also wondering what SE is seeing but instead of disagreeing I'm hoping he will expand on his thoughts. Hopefully, Rick will show us the rest of the story soon and put all this speculation to bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges

Trick question!  This is not performance skiing.  Show us a 21st century skier.  Clue 1 -- the old stance / new inside ski has been lifted and tipped more downhill than the uphill ski which is a move that died out of performance skiing with the dinosaurs (and red-suited devils.)  The 2nd clue is that he's stuck in the "toilet seat" stance from excessive flexion/retraction.  Clue 3 is too much hip counter ... square up and be modern.

My guess is a brush /push ( not really sure what the term means but guessing it means start of turn tail takes wider path the tip then accelerate with push @ end of turn.)

Reason to me it looks like the skier needs to turn sharper then a carve would allow for best line. (tail traveling further path then tips of skis in transition  is needed to take a better line) Body facing down hill legs contracted guess that transition was a cross under which most likely better suited for shorter turns of brush/push. (Gates look close togeather)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges

Trick question!  This is not performance skiing.  Show us a 21st century skier.  Clue 1 -- the old stance / new inside ski has been lifted and tipped more downhill than the uphill ski which is a move that died out of performance skiing with the dinosaurs (and red-suited devils.)  The 2nd clue is that he's stuck in the "toilet seat" stance from excessive flexion/retraction.  Clue 3 is too much hip counter ... square up and be modern.

my guess is the guy in the picture would own you in a race course........

It would be best if skis took a longer path then body a brush turning tails more then skis then driving skis forward with a push ( I do not know the difinitions of terms used so guessing what they mean)

Quote:
Originally Posted by snownat

CM is aft, right?

NO, it's not! When neither ski is being pressured (look closely and you'll see that neither is) then how can an aft CM be construed? This skier is at the absolute moment of transitional "float", therefore until pressure is exerted against a ski, he is NOT aft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges

Trick question!  This is not performance skiing.  Show us a 21st century skier.  Clue 1 -- the old stance / new inside ski has been lifted and tipped more downhill than the uphill ski which is a move that died out of performance skiing with the dinosaurs (and red-suited devils.)  The 2nd clue is that he's stuck in the "toilet seat" stance from excessive flexion/retraction.  Clue 3 is too much hip counter ... square up and be modern.

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I sure hope this post is a joke, and not a serious reply. If the former, HAHAHAHAH, if it's the latter, then someone needs to get a clue about elite skiing.....

Wow, good stuff everyone.  Looks like we already have most of the regulars participating, but I'll hold off until tomorrow with the answer, as promised, just in case there are a couple stragglers left who'd like to take a shot at it.

Just a couple comments until then:

JASP, I took this picture at the Loveland NorAm earlier this season.  It's Travis Dawson from Canada.  He finished top 10 in this race, in a field with some top WC racers in it.  Hirscher finished second.

Sharpedges, sneaky, funny stuff!  I'm on to you though!     I'll join in on your veiled fun after I post the answer tomorrow.  Don't want to give anything away quite yet.

Edited by Rick - 4/14/11 at 8:20pm

I can only wish to see all the physical details that you ski instruction professionals do.  My hat is off!

What I do see is the skiers eyes projecting intent so solid that I can not but believe that any and all motions to follow will result in a very effective path around and beyond the gate ahead.

Well,  when I do look carefully, the skier seems to be very athletically engaged in the transition, with a sold stance (even though momentarily suspended ) that will allow just about any "next move", so long as the direction is forward!

cheers

Ok, here's the answer to the test. The first photo will be the one prior to the test photo, then will be the test photo, and the next two will be the 2 following the test photo.  Test photo was #2 of 4.  I'm putting the all up, so you can see the entire sequence together.

So there you go, the pivot voters got it right,,, it was a massive pivot.

I found this shot in my photo collection while looking for a particular pic for the intro to racing DVD I'm currently working on.  When I saw it I thought to myself, "now there's a big a\$\$ pivot in the making", and when I looked the subsequent frames they proved me right.  Thought I put it up here, so you guys could have some fun trying to "name that transition" too.  It's also a good learning tool for those who are reading but chose not to stick their necks out to play.

You guys/gals who mentioned the anticipation, well done.  Yep, that's the thing that made this transition a pivot.  If he had wanted this transition to be arc to arc, he would have started unwinding the previous turn counter earlier.   That's the primary characteristic that separates pivot from arc to arc.  Once you get used to spotting it, you'll be able to pick out a pivot in the making from a mile away.

JASP, clad you brought the blocking pole plant up.  Isn't it interesting?  We  tend to think of the blocking pole plant as a standard component of a pivot, yet in this turn there was no pole plant at all.  His strength and body control is so good he doesn't need it to keep the body facing downhill and cause the feet to pivot with precision into the falline.  I have other montages that show the same non pole plant pivots.

snownat, nice eye on the aft thing.  It's the pivot that resolves it so quickly.  The pivot auto changes the CM to feet fore/aft relationship.  The body diving downhill gets the CM instantly ahead of the feet, once the pivot has happened.  If no pivot, then the downhill projection would not do that.  The skis would still be traveling across the hill upon engagement, and the body would simply be aft and below it.  That's why arc to arc transitions generally see more pre edge angle neutral extension;  to get the skier into the front of the ski earlier in the turn.

Snowfan, you may not have known the terminology, but you got the answer right anyway.  Cool.

Sharpedges, all those old school techniques you mentioned that this guy is using:  probably why it turned out to be a dreaded pivot.

(Folks, sharpy was teasing with his comments, he wasn't serious.  I'm just doing the same, joining in a little good natured fun with him that you may not get, but he will)

Edited by Rick - 4/15/11 at 11:16pm

Plus, there's that controlled, intentional slide out to the side after the pivot, before engagement at the gate.

So Rick would you say he was late? Or would you say the gates set causes this outcome? It would help explain the why a bit more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Plus, there's that controlled, intentional slide out to the side after the pivot, before engagement at the gate.

Yes.  There will always be a feathering process, between the transition pivot and the carving of the new turn, as pressure and edge engagement is reestablished.  The less sideways slide time in racers feather, the faster they will be.  Obviously, because skidding sideways dumps speed.  When it comes to pivoting, the ability to condense the feather is what separates the podium racers from the also-rans.  Skilled racers are able to execute moderate size pivots with almost no feather, to the point that many are fooled into thinking they just witnessed an arc to arc turn.

Here's a montage of a pivot executed with poor timing, and an extended, speed dumping, sideways slide.  Other racers did the same turn with similar amounts of pivot, but much less skid time.   It's also another good example of anticipation being used to power the pivot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

So Rick would you say he was late? Or would you say the gates set causes this outcome? It would help explain the why a bit more.

No, I'd not say he was late.  He apexed the turn before this one right at the gate, he didn't come out of it low.  He simply came into this gate on a straight line that would make arc to arc impossible, and a pivot the only option.  There was a lot of offset, and if arc to arc were even possible, which I doubt, it would have required a much rounder line, which means turning out of the falline more, which means slowing yourself down.  Straight and pivot is often faster than round and clean.  That's why we see so much pivoting going on in World Cup slalom.  Here's another montage of it, by one of the best in the World.

Liquidfeet, here's a montage of a more moderate size pivot, with the type of condensed feather I spoke about.  It's so well done, it can almost fool people into thinking it was arc to arc.  Upon reengagement in image 4, he begins almost immediately the new carve.

Originally Posted by Rick

No, I'd not say he was late.  He apexed the turn before this one right at the gate, he didn't come out of it low.  He simply came into this gate on a straight line that would make arc to arc impossible, and a pivot the only option.  There was a lot of offset, and if arc to arc were even possible, which I doubt, it would have required a much rounder line, which means turning out of the falline more, which means slowing yourself down.  Straight and pivot is often faster than round and clean.  That's why we see so much pivoting going on in World Cup slalom.  Here's another montage of it, by one of the best in the World.

Rick,

As these racers slide out to the side after these pivots, do they actively DO something to convert the slide into a carve?

In other words, do they actively move in some particular way to stop the slide and re-engage the skis?  If so, what do they do?

Or do the skis engage by themselves when enough speed is dumped, and the racer is predicting when this will be and adjusting the rate of that dump accordingly?  If that''s the case, how do they do that?

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