Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

This line from the toe piece says a lot look again as the CSIA boys have there butt so far back beyond the tail piece of the binding. There weight is back. The knees are also back not pressing forward.

 

When sinking down onto the tail of the ski we try to keep the butt over the back binding. Sinking straight down or sitting down on the mogul at end of the turn just before the float phase of the turn.

 

A way we feel this is do it without your ski boots on and see where the sink down goes. The person has to stay over the heels of the feet or they will fall back. Often with bots on the skier use the back of the boot to hold them self's up by leaning on the back of the boot.

Ironically you should do the same thing with your chest leads idea.  You will fall flat on your face without the boots and ski tips holding you up....the CSIA guys are anticpating, just watch the video, or the video of the the SVMM good guys or the other techncial mogul videos...same moves, what looks back for a split second, is back on top right after impact or transistion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Skidude all the posts are about a term or word. How to interpret the term or word. Some of what you say is true but then again other things make we wonder about your skill level. A lot of ? as always.

NO actually not.  SD like many of us use commonly recognized terms and concepts accepted by PSIA / CSIA and other organizations around the world.  Frankly, I asked you to do the same several posts back.  The terms he uses are clearly understood by other Pros. 

After reading Bored's post above, my instant thought was Barnes was referencing what to do down the backside of the bump AFTER transition.  Of course a post or two later SD came up with the same response as my thought. SD / self and Barnes are all on the same page for the most part, as well as a few others in this thread.

Lots of questions....yep....and that's very typical of most examiners.  I'll bet SD is one of them.  Wonder about his skill level ?  I don't.  While I've never met or skied with him the fact that he can constantly come up with accurate answers and back them is enough for me to understand he knows what he is doing.

The fact that most of us here don't go out and shoot endless video to show you doesn't mean a thing.  The fact that we can look at your videos and all come up with pretty much the same analysis that the words don't match the pictures and claims by you and Nail is the story.  You can choose any method or type of skiing you wish, but to come here and tell us the how to's and not be able to back it with reasonable explanations and video is shameful. 

Here is a general example.  The OP in this thread asked about the easiest way to learn to ski bumps.  You want him to use an edge set and develop rebound.  What are you thinking?  Most people begin to learn to ski bumps at the Intermediate level. 3000-4000 hours? Rebound ? Most people don't put those kind of hours in......in a lifetime.  Many experts can't consistently develop and use rebound.  Get a grip. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW 

Unless I totally misread... to quote him:  "The key is that the skis should point straight downhill and glide on the backside of the bump.  They should not skid sideways.  It may be frightening at first, but it doesn't last long."

 

I guess he didn't say anything about hitting the bumps, so I'll still focus on going into them with the tips straight.

 

Hey Bored I've been following this thread for the last four months or so and I'm impressed you are still involved in this ummmm, discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nailbender 

 

Actually, most of my turns have my COM centered over my bindings.  Here's another turn stuffing the tips into the mogul face and floating over the top, it's so fun the experience shouldn't be missed.

 

 

 

If that red line is your COM you must have very heavy knees.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 

 

Its funny that things that are holding you back are the things you are holding onto so dear.  Why?  I dont get that, even your heros dont do it...so why do you?

 

Well they all do talk about it though, the whole "lead with the upper body thing". The really funny part is that if they do actually believe in skiing that way the student has surpassed the master, cause nails is way "better" at it than cvj!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy 

Hey Bored I've been following this thread for the last four months or so and I'm impressed you are still involved in this ummmm, discussion.

 

Imagine how those of us who truly understand the fundamentals of skiing as Professionals feel . 
 

More carved than the QCT (go Ott !)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

Imagine how those of us who truly understand the fundamentals of skiing as Professionals feel . 
 

 

Oh it's ok UL they lost me on about page 4 when they said if the bumps weren't the right way they just didn't ski them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW 

Bob Barnes' encyclopedia says that young guys can skid down the backside of moguls and knock their skis into the surface of the next bump and get by this way.... but he said the correct was is to have the skis straight DOWN the backside of bumps, and then to skid up the front side to scrub speed...

 

 

Which should I try next season?

 

 

Also, he said that the natural extensor reflexes must be reversed in bumps... so how long does it take for the muscle-memory for that unnatural task to set in?  I've had it click in before when I was younger, but I fear the synapses are gone looking at recent bump attempts.

@ BoredATBMBW,

You have to put it in context to understand what Bob is getting at in this post. 

First, a disclaimer:  I suck at bump skiing; I'm not an instructor so probably have the terminology wrong too.

However, I have a pretty good handle on physics and have skied a few bump runs over the years.  What pops into my mind reading the advice above regarding the backsides of bumps is a bump run I was skiing on, oh, half a dozen years ago at Blue Mountain Collingwood.  The reason I suck at bump skiing is I hardly ever manage to find decent bumps to ski these days, and back in the day I just wasn't that interested in anything that didn't involve very high speeds, but there were some good bumps there that day.  I think the bumps were on the south half of "Spectacular" ( the other half of the run being ideally suited for DH practice)  or maybe they were on Avalanche.  There had been a few days prior with lots of freezing rain.  The bumps were about waist high.  I got to them at about 2:30 on a Saturday afternoon, after I had decided it was too dangerous to do any more high speed skiing as I was getting tired, and I thought I may as well try to round out my skill set and improve my bump skiing, so due to the timing of my bump skiing, the icy bumps had been nicely polished by skiers scraping down the backsides of them.  The slope itself was about 30 degrees, maybe a little more, but the slope on the back side of the moguls would easily exceed 45 degrees.

With those moguls in mind, it should be easy to see that braking down a 45 degree DOWNHILL slope of polished ice provides little stopping power, so you lose very little by not braking on the backside, and gain a lot by turning and sliding on the front side of the next mogul, where the actual local slope angle is maybe 15 degrees UPHILL.
 

Actually I said that, not nail. It was directed at him though, and to a lesser extent at you as well. Certainly not skidude though, we seem to be on pretty much the same page here.

No one's forcing you to lay out your methodology, but don't expect to be taken seriously if you refuse back up anything you're saying. At this point you're coming across as an expert skier who doesn't have the first clue about teaching ski technique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Skidude all the posts are about a term or word. How to interpret the term or word. Some of what you say is true but then again other things make we wonder about your skill level. A lot of ? as always. Nails hit the nail when he said all  the information is in the posts if you care to go review. I will not go threw all the BS again just to prove to the disbelievers we have a progression. I know it & so do those that learn the technique. That is what matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamadam 

At this point you're coming across as an expert skier who doesn't have the first clue about teaching ski technique.

I think they call that "unconsciously competent".

Seems the experts pro's who's terms ski better but don't have the any video of there perfect turn.  Have had enough again of the pro's crowing.  Trying to be the experts by confusing people with terms. KIS is what the QCT and SVMM are all about. Sorry if it is to simple for the technically advanced.

Show us your video's ? Or maybe how long it would take a skier to get to your expert term level? Maybe the video on Skiing for Kids By Kids would be a better fit.

I know what I teach works on all levels. Nails would like to show these experts how Lucas @ 8 years old  got from the wedge 2 years ago to today were he is 10 years old making short radius turns down the biggest and steepest runs.

Adanmamn You are the one that is not backing up any technique. Okay  we know nothing about skiing but have been making a living at it for 35 years. I ask ? no one answers. You ask me I try to answer. 

Drills are a waste of time. Don't do them but they are a good way to waste some good vertical. It does make the student feel like they can't ski. We go skiing to learn tom ski. Making as many turns as possible. Love the guy wedel.

Love where the skiers live that are posting. BFE Now there is an acronym.

This thread is become a waste of time as not much has been said about BEST WAY TO LEARN THE BUMPS.

IMO PSIA, CSIA, & PMTS for that matter are not doing the average skier any favors by all the terms & not bringing skiers to the next level. Any one can learn your terms if they want to but does mean they are skiers. I ski 9 weeks a year so listen to me I know the perfect terms.

Well I ski every month of the year but my terms are wrong and can't ski either. Wake up and ski more as he who skis more skis best is another QCT motto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Seems the experts pro's who's terms ski better but don't have the any video of there perfect turn.  Have had enough again of the pro's crowing.  Trying to be the experts by confussing people with terms. KIS is what the QCT and SVMM are all about. Sorry if it is to simple for the technically advanced.

 

Show us your video's ? Or maybe how long it would take a skier to get to your expert term level? Maybe the video on Skiing for Kids By Kids would be a better fit.

 

I know what I teach works on all levels. Nails would like to show these experts how Lucas @ 8 years old  got from the wedge 2 years ago to today were he is 10 years old making short radius turns down the biggest and steepest runs.

 

Adanmamn You are the one that is not backing up any technique. Okay  we know nothing about skiing but have been making a living at it for 35 years. I ask ? no one answers. You ask me I try to answer.

 

Love where the skiers live that are posting.

 

This thread is become a waste of time as not much has been said about BEST WAY TO LEARN THE BUMPS.

 Getting desparate?

Whether I am the worlds greatest bump skier or the worst, it wont change that fact that what you preach, and what your top guys do, dont line up.  Nor will my skiing prowess or lack of it, magically create a progression for you.

Standing behind the accomplishments of a 10 year old to save face is really pathetic.

No tired of the bad mouthing with no real substance.

The whole idea behind our video's tips are because we saw a void in ski teaching that was to complicated for such as simple thing skiing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 

 Getting desparate?

 

 

Whether I am the worlds greatest bump skier or the worst, it wont change that fact that what you preach, and what your top guys do, dont line up.  Nor will my skiing prowess or lack of it, magically create a progression for you.

 

Standing behind the accomplishments of a 10 year old to save face is really pathetic.

 

 

 

Seeing that a kid who comes from a wedge at 8 to skiing short radius turns better than you make is an accomplishment. Once again has your method of teaching gotten any of your students to a Nation level? Or taken any skier to another level.

To me it is about watching the skier improve as fast as they can.

Show us or tell us as this post with no ski information is really intelligent.

Lol,

No one here teaches with the terminology that we use here to convey ideas Pro to Pro.  You claimed to be a former world champion, professional coach with 35 years experience.  Forgive us for assuming you understood the most basic of terms and skiing concepts.

I also have been teaching a long time, even taught your tail push idea back in the day (1980s), sure it works, ie it will get you down the hill.  But with todays gear we can do alot better, again, as shown by you and the other national team guy and the CSIA video.  But how do you make the leap from tail push to QCT without undoing and relearing....you still havent offerered anything. 

I think we have shown the flaws in your approach quiet simply and clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Seeing that a kid who comes from a wedge at 8 to skiing short radius turns better than you make is an accomplishment. Once again has your method of teaching gotten any of your students to a Nation level? Or taken any skier to another level.

 

To me it is about watching the skier improve as fast as they can.

 

Show us or tell us as this post with no ski information is really intelligent.

 

 

Another level?  Absolutely!  WC.  In fact virtually the entire WC has come up through what I preach.  Not to mention all the big name big mountain free skiers.  Sorry to burst your bubble but what I preach isn't revolutionary, or unique, or one off, it is the tried and true, bare bones  proven through and through the world over.  I have coached all over, and with skiers/coaches from around the globe.  The top guys all do it the same, they teach the same stuff.  Very very few, if any make it to the WC by following backwater ideologies.

Really this is an incredibley ignorant thing to even ask.  As for quick progression?  Yup, no question, it is efficient as nothing needs to be undone and relearned.  Your 3000 to 4000 comment above showed you are a hiding to nothing.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidude72 

 

Another level?  Absolutely!  WC.  In fact virtually the entire WC has come up through what I preach.  Not to mention all the big name big mountain free skiers.  Sorry to burst your bubble but what I preach isn't revolutionary, or unique, or one off, it is the tried and true, bare bones  proven through and through the world over.  I have coached all over, and with skiers/coaches from around the globe.  The top guys all do it the same, they teach the same stuff.  Very very few, if any make it to the WC by following backwater ideologies.

 

Really this is an incredibley ignorant thing to even ask.  As for quick progression?  Yup, no question, it is efficient as nothing needs to be undone and relearned.  Your 3000 to 4000 comment above showed you are a hiding to nothing.

 

 

Show me your I'll show you mine. Who have you brought to the WC? So some one told what was good. Here we decide what works & makes us a better skier not some one else opinion. Matbe you could judge some mogul events as the judges learned that way some one told them what was best. Think for your self.

Innovation is what is about not the norm.
 

You keep assuming

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Show me your I'll show you mine. Who have you brought to the WC? So some one told what was good. Here we decide what works & makes us a better skier not some one else opinion. Matbe you could judge some mogul events as the judges learned that way some one told them what was best. Think for your self.

 

Innovation is what is about not the norm.
 

You keep assuming

WC Racing, not Bumps, but that is irrelevant.  Never took anyone personally all the way from 8 years old to WC.  Never been with one program that long.  But I have coached at all levels including WC.  Further while I personally may not have been there every day, the coaches that replaced me, or that I replaced all taught the same thing.  They teach what they do becasue it works, it is backed by physics and biomechanics.  Many of the ideas I express here are actually really old and have been around along time, yet are still taught today becuase they are still relevant.  Physics, snow, our bodies havent changed, so many of the princples havent either.  That is not to say no change has occoured, some has as gear has advanced, but the other variables mentioned earlier havent changed at all.  As I moved thourght programs, or new coaches came on board, it was never a case of "new coach, new way to ski"...things just built up.  Good skiing is good skiing, good coaching is good coaching.  These debates from back water "new ways to ski" only really happen on the internet.  They simply dont exist in the real world among true pros.  I think this thread has shown why.

Using technqiue from 1980 is not innovation.   It has rehasing at best.  And yes on modern gear it is easy.  I do think for myself, I think my understanding of the physics and biomechanics proves I do understand skiing in theory that is supported by science, not just random opinion.  It is you guys who cant back a single statment you make, just following or repeating catch phrases that someone else said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

 

IMO PSIA, CSIA, & PMTS for that matter are not doing the average skier any favors by all the terms & not bringing skiers to the next level. Any one can learn your terms if they want to but does mean they are skiers. I ski 9 weeks a year so listen to me I know the perfect terms.

I can understand your getting defensive of your system.  I am also sure that you are proud of your results, & rightly so.  It just seems to me that you would want to explore all avenues & not get stuck in one little world.  Instead of always being on the defensive why wouldn't you come into a discussion like this to try & expand your horizons & continue to develop & evolve your system?

I can cite a few world class skiers who joined the ranks of PSIA & have gone through their certification process before venturing into passing their knowledge on.  AJ Kitt, Deb Armstrong are two, & more recently Glen Plake & Daron Rahlves.  I am sure there are many more in different parts of the world, but those are a few who I have personal knowledge of.  Hermann Maier went from ski racing to ski school & back to racing before he won the World Cup.

I join in & read these forums as a great place to share ideas & concepts.  Having a universal understanding of specific terminology just helps the communication.  You guys may be missing out on a lot of well founded information that could improve your already successful program.  Even though Sun Valley has produced many great skiers over the decades, they are not the only ones.

Every 4 years there is an international ski congress called Interski where all the nations ski schools send representatives to share ideas & innovations.  I am sure there are many heated discussions, but everyone comes away with some new ideas & a greater understanding of skiing & skill development.

I am sure there is a lot of good in the SVMM approach, it is just that much of the skiing demonstrated in the posted videos shows an antiquated skid to an edge set, short swing type turn.  Nothing wrong with that, but there are better ways to develop someone into a well rounded skier than using that turn as the base IMO.

I would hope that we can all learn from each other & continue to evolve! 

Thanks,

JF

Originally Posted by cvj 

 

Love where the skiers live that are posting.

 

 I ski 9 weeks a year so listen to me I know the perfect terms.

 

Yeah, you got me.  I suck and have no idea of what I'm doing.  Agreed 60 days a season is pretty mininal compaired to when I worked in the business, but it's nice to not have to go to line-up, but then there's the 20 hour drive. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Adanmamn You are the one that is not backing up any technique. Okay  we know nothing about skiing but have been making a living at it for 35 years. I ask ? no one answers. You ask me I try to answer. 

Correct me if I've missed something, but I can't recall any specific questions that you've posed to me about technique. We've spent a lot of time looking at screenshots of nailbender and that csia video, where you make the same claims over and over, every single one of which has been addressed previously in the thread.

A few posts back, I put a couple very simple (I thought so anyway) questions to you about what kind of skiers you teach and how you go about applying your method, and you flat out refused. Not sure what else there is to say really...

Hey BACKSEAT BOYS, show us the video of how all this new gear and state of the art teaching techniques make mogul skiing so much easier, smoother and more fluent.  How it allows the skier to challenge the technical line by stuffing the tips into the mogul face and linking a quick, clean backside turn without being consistently launched into a backseat recovery air turn.  Show us and explain how patching together a section with repeated backseat, butt over the tails dolphin turns is so superior to SVMM skiing.  You know, the "backwater" approach  where continually linking turns, initiated by shovel edge pressure,  focusing on stabilizing the Chest COM which  helps stabilize the true COM, staying forward where it is easier and quick to move edge pressure from fore to aft compared to being backseat where it is difficult and time consuming to regain shovel edge pressure to initiate the next turn, which puts the skier in control of where the turn is made and when it is finished, and allows the skier to turn into the mogul face and link a quick, clean backside turn.

Quit dreaming and imagining theory in action...the talk stops when you get off the chair.

You are professional ski instructors, you teach what is supposed to be a superior system that can quickly advance skiers from the safety of the groomed to comfortably challenging black diamond runs....  show/present the VIDEO of skiers in natural terrain that these superior systems, compared to "backwater" approaches produce.  Show us how they float down the technical line.

Don't hide with the typical "I don't have any video of myself" line.  There is what is supposed to be a superior/advanced  professional ski instructors industry out there with thousands of due paying members that when compared to "backwater" approaches is the "ticket" to learning the intricacies of advanced natural terrain skiing.  There must be video showing the undeniable "benefits" of how the "system" uses all this new gear and training techniques to give the skier the "upper hand" or "edge" when challenging a mogul field.

There must be something out there that is a lot better than the current 2004 CSIA video of a couple of instructors getting repeatedly thrown into the backseat and getting bounced around like popcorn, then getting spit out the bottom in GS turns.

Show the video and help us "backwater" skiers improve our on hill experience, eh?

Nails,

I think you are just being rude now.  There is little point in showing you anything as you are too caught up in dogma and arbitratry theory as shown by your "lines" and other arbitraty measures of what is "good skiing". 

"To ski well one must keep their chest 2.3 mm in front of the orange line at all times". 

NailBender. 

If you cant watch the CSIA video and appreciate these guys are skiing smooth and in control, at speed in big bumps, then another video with a 2011 time stamp wont change that.

Good luck to you.

For those interested thou, as I do think this has been a good thread in many ways here is another approach.  High Speed GS in bumps.  Obviuolsy these bumps are much smaller like what we see in the SVMM videos, but there is alot more speed here, and obvioulsy a much bigger turn.  If you go to the youtube page, you can find about 30 or similiar videos, all from the last 12 months.  The last two videos is Epic's own "Skinerd".  You can also go to the youtube page and this one will also bring up about another 30 videos.  Here Tobin is skiing stuff much much steeper then the SVMM vids, and the CSIA vid, short snappy turns, in variable terrain.  Sweet!  In the second last video not only does Skinerd show great skiing, he provides a good video lesson as well that mention many of the ideas being advocated by myself and others in this thread and board.

EDIT:  THE SECOND AND THIRD VIDEOS FOR SOME REASON POSTED IN REVERSE ORDER....but I am sure you all figured that out.

"It's a beautiful spring day here at Mt. Washington".....  

Anybody know what runs those "section 8" vids were filmed on  (I just want to enhance my trip down memory lane)?

When, where did I make that statement?  I make plenty of statements, you don't have you to misquote me and imply I said anything  I in fact did not say, thanks.

I watched the videos, I thought they were very cute and about what I expected.  Let's see, next time I trace the zipperline I'll work on reaching my pole plant out in front of me.  While a good tip, for some day trading once a weekend/year broker on vacation at Banff, I found it lacking to say the least.  It's no wonder so few can ski moguls.   I'll admit, I thought the skiing was an improvement over the 2004 genre and the jackets were very stylish. 

I don't think I ever saw the instructor with the extend the legs into the bump and then let the bump push your knees into you face tip ever ski OVER a mogul.  He was smooth though, while confined to the zipperline, tracing the turns and ruts of every skier before him.  I don't think the guy even has the concept that the a skier can ski OVER the mogul and down the backside, he only sees the zipperline, skiing down the rut and over the transition to the next rut.

Do you seriously consider these videos have any realistic possibility of helping an intermediate advance to an expert level of skiing in natural terrain?  It's a joke right? HaHaHa...I get it now.

The videos you posted don't even come close to the information and insights CVJ and I have posted.  They certainly don't support your claim of a superior system of training that will take intermediates,or experts even, comfortably into black diamond terrain.  The instructors skiing ability simply isn't there, the technique isn't refined enough, they are even promoting the wrong turn that confines them to the rut line.  The basic movements are good, but it  is simply executed to slowly  in every way to defy the zipperline or even handle the zipperline in steeper terrain, yet alone quick or powerful enough to challenge the technical line, turning into the mogul face and linking a backside turn on the big white spot.

The ski instruction industry is lost when it comes to advancing skiers from the groomed to black diamond terrain.  Sure there are some good skiers that can actually help people bridge the gap, but they are far to few.  The industry doesn't seem to have the basic understanding that THE key to skiing natural terrain/ moguls is to concentrate the instruction on having the skier develop the quickest, cleanest, tightest and smoothest short radius turn they can make and in the process learn how to handle the forces that are generated and use them to their advantage and all this is done on the comfort of the groomed.  It's to simple really, develop a solid QCT and the whole mountain opens up for the skier.

All these ski gurus are showmen to a certain extent, adept with the smoke and mirrors.

If they came straight out and told you all you needed was good fundamentals and time on snow, do you think they would be able to make a living?

Of course it helps if you aren't trying to ski too slow or too fast and have skis better suited to the task, speed, terrain, and type of snow you're skiing,  and it helps if you understand what's happening from a physics standpoint, but all it really takes to get "comfortable" is to spend the days skiing the terrain while making half decent movements to learn the effects of what you do with your skis.

Skidude72 The video posts are good. There you go assuming they were skiing steeper runs than SVMM skiers but don't think so as the run in the objective video was Exhibition about 33 degrees. But this is how we ski. Only quicker, faster. Just don't agree with the back pedaling just reach with the tips of the skis for the snow when extending.

Ghost has our theory.

Here is a video of 2 National team members skiing different runs but you can see who is tail pushing who is not. Watch the whole ski go across the fall line with the QCT skier & the tip barely moves with the tail pushing.

The QCT skier has more angles. Were the tail push has no angles & the skier is always in a stacked position.

Guys, no offense but I was just watching the video and my 6 year old was pointing out how good both skiers  are and wondering why grown men are arguing over who is better. I just thought I would put it into perspective for you!