Best way to learn bumps? - Page 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

Wacker then what are you doing when skiing? Just getting to the bottom 1st & this makes you an expert on technique not.

 

 

eh having fun, enjoying the sensations you can feel skiing.  What the hell are you doing while your skiing? If you read the quote at the bottom, youd see what my real goals are. Also being a L3 makes me qualified than most people who post in these forums.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

Never said or ever strived for a perfect turn. My goal while skiing is to be able to go everywhere and do it longer than anyone else. I succeed at my goal everyday.
 

 

CVJ If I am able to ski a run you can not ski, even with in your mind inproper technique, how could you be a better skier than me if your unable to ski the run?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA 

 

CVJ If I am able to ski a run you can not ski, even with in your mind inproper technique, how could you be a better skier than me if your unable to ski the run?

 

BWPA, this really depends on how you measure the level of a skier. For certain sports it is quite easy, for instance in climbing you are a 5.13 level if if you consistently climb all 5.13 routes. I does not really matter if you do it with style or not.

However, I really dislike this way of measuring ski level.

I have seen beginners go down a double black diamond on their very first day of skiing. Does that make them a double black diamond level skier? IMO no.

CVJ is a four time world champion mogul skier so you can be pretty sure that he is an extremely good skier. If he does not want to risk dropping 40 feet cliffs but you do, does that make you the better skier?

It makes you a better cliff-dropper but overall it depends on how you measure.

OTT, this 351 feet drop should count pretty high on that scale :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

Geoffda.....Sharpedges.............you guys miss this one ?

 

Can we PLEASE let Max 501 back to have a chat with cvj ?
 

 

Saw it.  Saw this year's Epic posting rules too, so decided to pass.

I second the suggestion to let Max_501 in to chat with cvj.  It would yield the sort of entertaining, yet civil, debate that would help liven up this forum in preparation for the coming season.  All in favor?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharpedges 

Saw it.  Saw this year's Epic posting rules too, so decided to pass.

 

I second the suggestion to let Max_501 in to chat with cvj.  It would yield the sort of entertaining, yet civil, debate that would help liven up this forum in preparation for the coming season.  All in favor?
 

Nay.

He tended to ask a lot of questions and then, either bow out, or ask more questions, rather than making an actual contribution to discussions.  I suspect this was both because he liked getting other people to type, and because at the end of the day  imo he didn't have any technical background beyond mouthing what someone else said.  Better off without.

LOL, ya, the guy in the grey jacket is in all sorts of trouble in the first turn or the next turn or the next turn....  To far forward?  LOL!

I'll take the skis crossing the fall line under or behind the COM any day on any mogul run.

Let's see what the classic CSIA3 backsesat turn finish looks like, I think desperation describes the moment best. Notice the lack of any shovel pressure and how the shoulders are twisting across the fall line.  This is because the skier can't initiate the shovel edges in the the new turn and is forced to twist the shoulders left to compensate of pivoting the skis right back into the fall line.

Late, backseat and unable to get early shovel pressure in the high "C" because knee flexion range was used up to absorb the impact of terrain instead of extending into the turn finish to properly set up transition into the next turn.  If you want to see more of these classic late/backseat turn finishes, take a look.

BTW, I'm sure these guys are having fun, examples of sticking a powerful,crisp turn finish, not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nailbender 

 

 

LOL, ya, the guy in the grey jacket is in all sorts of trouble in the first turn or the next turn or the next turn....  To far forward?  LOL!

That's right, too far forward. Way too far forward. Read Skidude's comment again and have a think about it, cause he's absolutely right. The second photo looks a lot better, probably a bit forward, but without the the frames immediately before and after to look at as well I can't criticize very much.

 

I'll take the skis crossing the fall line under or behind the COM any day on any mogul run.

 

 

 

Let's see what the classic CSIA3 backsesat turn finish looks like, I think desperation describes the moment best. Notice the lack of any shovel pressure and how the shoulders are twisting across the fall line.  This is because the skier can't initiate the shovel edges in the the new turn and is forced to twist the shoulders left to compensate of pivoting the skis right back into the fall line.

First of all, this is not the turn finish we're looking at, this is pretty clearly the beginning of a new turn. The transition is done and he's all set to land on the new downhill edges. And yes, he's airborne so no edging yet, but as I said, what you'll see in rest of the turn is the feet coming back under the mass, the ankles opening and shovel edges (your words) making first contact with the snow and leading the skis through the rest of the turn.

 

And yes, if you look at that one moment in time, the skier's feet are in front of the mass here. But if you look at the frames that follow what you'll see is the skier opening the ankles and drawing the feet back under him, reestablishing his balance over the skis. That's pretty common in bumps, pushing the feet forward slightly and closing the ankles in anticipation of a rapidly approaching bump, and pulling them back while opening the ankles to recenter your balance. You can practice this on the groomed too, the exercise is called the dolphin turn, I'll post a video below. Then watch the CSIA video again, and you should see the backwards pedaling motion that the instructor demonstrates in the dolphin turn video.

 

As far as twisting the shoulders goes, I'm not sure how you can say that based on a single still image. I see a skier with a stable, calm upper body and with the turning effort coming from the legs. Once again, rewatch the CSIA video and you should see that too, cause that's what's happening.

 

 

 

Dolphin turns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WWkKOSoYEs

I tried to resist posting, since based on the nature of the bickering going on I'm probably just preaching to the choir here, but for better or worse I couldn't help myself. I should mention that I agree with some the ideas that Nail/CVJ/whoever else have about line, ie staying out of the zipper and steering your turns through the moguls, but I really don't get how you can rip on a video demonstrating generally excellent skiing. These guys aren't bashing a zipperline and they're steering round turns with lots of edge (but somehow not doing the ever elusive QCT?), which seems to me like something that you guys would approve of.

Added to that, there's the pretty basic inaccuracies that I responded to above, and what (in my limited exposure to this site) seems to be a habit of refusing to concede a point or even acknowledge seeing what's right in front of you, in this thread and others, so I had to comment.

My $1.05...

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamadam 

 

I tried to resist posting, since based on the nature of the bickering going on I'm probably just preaching to the choir here, but for better or worse I couldn't help myself. I should mention that I agree with some the ideas that Nail/CVJ/whoever else have about line, ie staying out of the zipper and steering your turns through the moguls, but I really don't get how you can rip on a video demonstrating generally excellent skiing. These guys aren't bashing a zipperline and they're steering round turns with lots of edge (but somehow not doing the ever elusive QCT?), which seems to me like something that you guys would approve of.

 

Added to that, there's the pretty basic inaccuracies that I responded to above, and what (in my limited exposure to this site) seems to be a habit of refusing to concede a point or even acknowledge seeing what's right in front of you, in this thread and others, so I had to comment.

 

My $1.05...

 

 

Agreed and thanks for this adamadam.

Something else for all to consider with the still shot of our Canadian friend above.  Everybody keep in mind the steeper the terrain gets the more it LOOKS like we are in the back seat.   If you think about it, the more our torso remains upright to stay in balance and the more the ski is angled (tip down) to match the terrain............ the closer our boot top gets to our rear end. In balance can look a lot like being in the backseat and with increased flexion it looks even worse.  The still shot above clearly shows a skier just after transition.

The three Canadian level 4's in the video are technically FAR more refined than the SVMM group. (unless of course if you are skiing a competitive mogul event and need to get to the bottom quickly and need to look like what the judges consider "good bump skiing".)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie 

 

Agreed and thanks for this adamadam.

 

Something else for all to consider with the still shot of our Canadian friend above.  Everybody keep in mind the steeper the terrain gets the more it LOOKS like we are in the back seat.   If you think about it, the more our torso remains upright to stay in balance and the more the ski is angled (tip down) to match the terrain............ the closer our boot top gets to our rear end. In balance can look a lot like being in the backseat and with increased flexion it looks even worse.  The still shot above clearly shows a skier just after transition.

 

The three Canadian level 4's in the video are technically FAR more refined than the SVMM group. (unless of course if you are skiing a competitive mogul event and need to get to the bottom quickly and need to look like what the judges consider "good bump skiing".)

 

UL, the body does not need to be upright to be in balance, it should be balancing the normal force and the friction force. In skiing there is usually very little friction force, which means that the torso does not need to be above the feet as it gets steeper. You can see this in the video.

Also, the SVMM group contains everything from beginners to some of the best mogul skiiers in the world so how can you compare to a "group"

As far as the dolphin turn goes been doing it for more than 35 years. Skiers need to match the pitch of the run with body position.

BTW bushwakerpa must be the best as he has said so & so did his girl friend. Don't believe everything you hear or tell yourself. There you go saying for some dumb reason your having more fun & felling the sensations of skiing. Same here but trying to find the best turn for all runs conditions & disciplines. What else.

The skiers in the Canadian video are making the same moves as the QCT but waiting to long at the end of the turn to stay over the skis so they get back seat. In the GS turns u show the skiers do not go across the fall line as much as the turns made in QCT GSing. How does a skier go totally across the fall line without turning the hips in the direction of travel? Don't over think it. All expert skiers make the same moves.

From face book I read through that string after seeing Joey train his team in the jumping pool last weekend at the Olympic Training Center by Park City. It is truly amazing to see some be so critical even as their eyes do not see what's really going on. As Killy said.
" There are lots of skiers who are intelligent about skiing, but I ski with intelligent feet."

Now we have been accused of being a PMTS skier. Far from it however.

I also happen to be the Max 501 of Mogul Skiing .net. Ban delete is always an option.

That is funny on so many levels. Joey, since you are apparently teaching PMTS now, I guess I'd better shut up about your QCT eh? Seriously,  people can't fathom the idea that skiing can be reduced to a small set of fundamentals that can be applied to any turn. That kind of thinking is dangerous--it makes skiing too easy to understand. People could take that information and actually learn how to ski really, really well. What happens then? If everyone on the mountain is out there ripping it up, what good is being a ski instructor?

The CSIA video shows that the skiers can put the tips where ever they want them.

cvj and nails, take a look at the turns shown in this video, especially in the beginning when the kids are all skiing together. This is a great group of juniors that are just ripping it up. What is the progression you teach that gets the kids to this level and how do you teach them to get earlier and earlier high C engagement like cvj uses when he is ripping bumps?

Most skiers will never stick a turn like the one above in a similar location.  FWIW, the turn in the pic above is about a sweet as it gets, almost no effort, total speed control and complete line control.  A program that recognizes the forward agressive stance as the skis come across the fall line as anything less than optimal needs an overhaul, IMO.

AA, it appears CSIA members just don't get it and is most likely the reason for the constant backseat pivot recoveries in natural terrain.  I certainly applaud the attempt of the CSIA skiers to defy the zipperline, but their turns are simply not quick enough, they hang to long on the centered to aft edge.  They are consistently NOT forward enough to generate shovel edge pressure early in the high "C" or usually anywhere in the turn for that matter which makes them late and are forced to typically bounce or deflect off the mogul sidewall for speed control and direction change.

Let's try this again and maybe you will see what I'm talking about, where you suggest I'm "way to far forward" and the CSIA skier is stable I guess, I say he is in backseat trouble which will cause him to be late into the next turn.

Skidude made the totally incorrect call, which is typical, as I'm in total control in the next turn here and guess what?  I'm still forward and square to the fall line in a great position to quickly initiate the next turn.  To even suggest I'm to far forward and the other skier is in the desired position after deflecting off the mogul side wall is way off base IMO.  After all, I'm not the skier being foreced into GS turns after losing speed control and line,  getting spit out of the bottom of the section.

Backseat is bad and late, forward is good and early when skiing naturlal terrain.  I've never heard a skier that turned to navigate natural terrain complain, "I was just to far forward down that entire mogul run." 

Here is another great video:

Compare the fore/aft balance states of these guys.  You will see they tend to mimick the CSIA guys, and also red pants.  Grey jacket is really doing somthing quit different.  When you advance from 2D skiing (where the snow is flat and consistent and groomed) to advanced skiing where it becomes 3D (bumps, powder, transitions) being forward, can easily get you too far forward, then your ability to perform drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiatansky 

cvj and nails, take a look at the turns shown in this video, especially in the beginning when the kids are all skiing together. This is a great group of juniors that are just ripping it up. What is the progression you teach that gets the kids to this level and how do you teach them to get earlier and earlier high C engagement like cvj uses when he is ripping bumps?

 

 

 

First let me say it is great to see these kids out having fun and enjoying skiing.

But what is with that coaching?????????????  EVERY kid working on "hands"?????  Serioulsy.

We ski with our skis.  These kids have glaring deficiences in their stance, pivoting, edging, yet they are working on hands???????  That is like having an old beat up car that doesnt run, and spending the money to repaint it before fixing the motor.

Last point.  The video states the QCT is easy.  It is easy.  No argument.  How do I know?  I skied that way.  We all did.  Back in the 1970s and 1980s on our 200cm+ skis.  Especailly those of us, like me from the east where we skied on man made boiler plate.  It was easy, get forward, and push the tails.  But it doesnt deliver anywhere near the performance or versatility of what can be achieved today or todays gear.

The flip at the end of the video was cool thou.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nailbender 

Most skiers will never stick a turn like the one above in a similar location.  FWIW, the turn in the pic above is about a sweet as it gets, almost no effort, total speed control and complete line control.  A program that recognizes the forward agressive stance as the skis come across the fall line as anything less than optimal needs an overhaul, IMO.

 

AA, it appears CSIA members just don't get it and is most likely the reason for the constant backseat pivot recoveries in natural terrain.  I certainly applaud the attempt of the CSIA skiers to defy the zipperline, but their turns are simply not quick enough, they hang to long on the centered to aft edge.  They are consistently NOT forward enough to generate shovel edge pressure early in the high "C" or usually anywhere in the turn for that matter which makes them late and are forced to typically bounce or deflect off the mogul sidewall for speed control and direction change.

 

Let's try this again and maybe you will see what I'm talking about, where you suggest I'm "way to far forward" and the CSIA skier is stable I guess, I say he is in backseat trouble which will cause him to be late into the next turn.

 

Skidude made the totally incorrect call, which is typical, as I'm in total control in the next turn here and guess what?  I'm still forward and square to the fall line in a great position to quickly initiate the next turn.  To even suggest I'm to far forward and the other skier is in the desired position after deflecting off the mogul side wall is way off base IMO.  After all, I'm not the skier being foreced into GS turns after losing speed control and line,  getting spit out of the bottom of the section.

 

Backseat is bad and late, forward is good and early when skiing naturlal terrain.  I've never heard a skier that turned to navigate natural terrain complain, "I was just to far forward down that entire mogul run." 

 

 

Alright, so I got pretty much what I expected here, cause it really does seem as though you didn't actually read a word that I wrote earlier...I'll try to limit the rhetoric here and stick to simple, yes/no questions, hopefully that helps to get around some of the confusion here.

You're still talking about the CSIA guys being backseat, and yes, you successfully found a frame as evidence, but I thought I did a pretty ok job of explaining how that's a part of skiing bumps. That whole dolphin turn/backwards pedaling thing, its all there in the video, plain as day if you have an honest look at it. But sticking to simple questions...

1. Are you seriously going to tell me that you think the skiers in the video are chronically back seat in all phases of the turn throughout their runs?

And about being forward, you successfully found another shot that shows your body way ahead of your feet. But even though the general principles of ski technique say that's not a great way to ski, it doesn't mean you're automatically going to eat shit every time you hit a bump run. However it does mean that you're sacrificing performance, since with your weight forward you aren't in a position to effectively engage your tails, and you're losing half your edge. It also puts you at risk of going over the handlebars in the event that something unexpected pops up ahead of you. So, next question...

2. Is it your opinion that its better to be forward rather than centered over your skis?

So, I propose you start with a simple yes/no to those two questions, and then add whatever explanation/elaboration you feel is appropriate. I'd also suggest that it would be a good idea to go back to my last post and have another read, cause there are some things up there that speak to the points you raise in the post quoted above that I didn't feel like typing out again.

Looking forward to reading what you have to say.

Hey, where are the bumps in those videos? I don't see any Volkswagen or Winnebago sized moguls like we get in the real world (Squaw's West Face). Maybe the minutae about how you hold your pinkie finger out when planting is relevant for uneven corduroy but survival takes precedent in measurable bumps.

Just kidding, I'm enjoying the debate (even if I don't really buy much of it - there are many right ways to ski) and I'm enjoying the videos of some great skiers.

West Face does get Volkswagen sized bumps.

Eric

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvj 

That is funny on so many levels. Joey, since you are apparently teaching PMTS now, I guess I'd better shut up about your QCT eh? Seriously,  people can't fathom the idea that skiing can be reduced to a small set of fundamentals that can be applied to any turn. That kind of thinking is dangerous--it makes skiing too easy to understand. People could take that information and actually learn how to ski really, really well. What happens then? If everyone on the mountain is out there ripping it up, what good is being a ski instructor?

Gotta say bravo on this paragraph cvj...perfect spelling, grammar, and punctuation?  Come on, you did not write this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleeski 

Hey, where are the bumps in those videos? I don't see any Volkswagen or Winnebago sized moguls like we get in the real world (Squaw's West Face). Maybe the minutae about how you hold your pinkie finger out when planting is relevant for uneven corduroy but survival takes precedent in measurable bumps.

 

Just kidding, I'm enjoying the debate (even if I don't really buy much of it - there are many right ways to ski) and I'm enjoying the videos of some great skiers.

 

West Face does get Volkswagen sized bumps.

 

Eric

Yes, Eric. I see it now.   All this time I was attributing my sucking at bumps to the wrong factors.  At first I thought it might be my equipment (Antique nearly straight SG skis), but then I got some SL racing skis and I still sucked.  I thought it might be because I was using DH technique, trying to carve all my turns to the Nth degree, so I learned to do the pivot twist a la chubby checker, but I still sucked.  Then I tried the brushed-carving approach; still sucked.  Now I see the secret to good bump skiing is to find some small bumps in soft snow, bumps that don't have a 6 to 10 foot nearly-vertical drop composed of marble-hard ice on the back side, and zipper lines that don't end in a wall  (the kind that I don't notice until my kids or friends tell me we were skiing moguls). 

Show us some ice-covered-Volkswagen-beetle bump skiing please.

cvj and nails - did you see this post

http://www.epicski.com/t/103262/best-way-to-learn-bumps/210#post_1356548

would be good to get your input

Ya, I read about the Dolphin turn, it sure looks the the CSIA  "go to" turn/tactic in the moguls.  It's basically a 90° airborne pivot into or past the fall line.  I'll use it if I need it, but don't rely on it to consistently initiate turns in natural terrain.  I'm promoting generating staying forward and developing early shovel edge pressure in the high "C", I'm not the mogul skier getting repeatedly bounced around like a ping pong ball, the CSIA skier is.

Is my body way ahead of my feet or is it centered over my skis?

Let me clarify, the second pic is NOT just another turn, it is the NEXT turn following the original pic/turn that Skidude proclaimed absolutely incorrectly, "Furthter if he gets a mogul impact he will end up going over the handle bars or at least with a good head bob." Well, I'd say I deflected quit high off the mogul sidewall with speed.  Sure it was intense, but I was well positioned, being "to far forward" I was able to handle the deflection with ease, I don't think I even dropped my hand back...

If you watch the video on YouTube, I'm basically "to far forward" down the entire section, It's crisp, rhythmic and smooth skiing IMO, I'd say I'm typically generating early shovel edge pressure in the high "C" and continue to progressively build it into the turn finish where I extend my knees and close my ankles sharply, moving pressure from fore/centered to centered/aft.

This is where the CSIA skiers in the video are deficient, they fail to maintain/regain a forward/centered aggressive stance (backseat) and are unable to consistently develop early shovel edge pressure which starts generating edge pressure late in the turn, and usually finishes with a lateral deflection off the mogul side wall.  These guys are not stuffing the tips into the mogul face and linking a backside turn. This impact/deflection again launches the backseat skier into the air during transition and usually through the high "C" where generating shovel edge pressure is late, if acquired at all, often as late as when the skis are coming back across the fall line....I think you get the idea....late makes late, makes late...

AA, a backseat dolphin turn is still backseat and means late trouble.  There is a limit to how far back the skiers butt can drop behind his bindings in order to successfully regain the forward/centered stance in time to initiate the next turn with shovel pressure.  Big difference and results between an aggressive forward dophin turn and backseat desperation.  Again, it looks to me like the airborne 90° pivot (dolphin turn) is supported as a CSIA "go to move".  I'd say they are a little to dependent on it, they should try to get forward and stay there.

YES, I'm not commenting or comparing the powder clips or the groomed skiing however.  I'd say "chronically backseat" is a fair assessment, not always or constantly, but certainly quite often.

I like the pow video, but wish I could see more of the first section of the Blue jacket guy, his stuffs the tips into the pile and then stuffs them again, but catches a little bunny hop and then the clip cuts out, I'd really like to see more of that section.

Let's take a look at some stills from 23 seconds to 41 seconds. I don't see advantages of the late reactive/defensive backseat dolphin turn that make it a more desirable tactic to gain speed/line control compared to staying forward in an aggressive forward stance and hooking up the shovel edges early in the high "C", basically sticking QCT's.

The clip starts with a big backseat dolphin turn and is followed expectedly by a big airborne pivot through the fall line...very atheletic though.

This what I'd call a classic backseat dolphin turn, again there is no shove edge contact in the high "C", if the skier was "to far forward", they likely would have been able to regain snow contact much earlier

back and late again...

OK, maybe this is the classice backseat finish/transition, dolphin turn, whatever..

Hips way to far back, no shovel edge pressure in the high "C" again, there's still no pressure  in the fall line with the downhill ski....I say the skier is late and backseat.

This is an interesting still, skier is backseat again/still, the skis are starting to come back across the fall line and still NO pressure on the downhill shovel yet, but is riding the tail...gotta be late... 

Back, late and contorted, desperate to pull those tips into the fall line.

Again, back and compressed.  It's just not an optimal position to regain early shovel edge pressure in the high "C".

The skis have been rotated/pivoted back into the fall line during the high "C" again, IMO, the skier is simply to far backseat to generate shovel edge pressure.

Bounced again and to far back.  If the skier was "way to far forward", he'd have been able to entend his knees as he stuffed his tips into the mogul face and be in position to immediatlely retract and get his shovels back on the snow.

There were some decent turns in that section, but even in those turns there was very little early shovel edge pressure in the high "C" which lead him to quickly being backseat and late.  In quite a few of those dolphin turns, the skier does generate centered/aft edge pressures, usually after entering the fall line weightless, but it is simply to little, to late to maintain consistent speed control where he gains it by bouncing off the bottom of the mogul side wall.

Center of chest (COM) or focused edge pressure?  If edge pressure, what phase of the turn?

I consider the COM to be the center of the chest.  I think it is optimal that the center of the chest should  be in a perpendicular plane, relative to the slope, to the binding toe piece, which is usually close ot the center of the ski.  In order to make a QCT on a steep slope, the chest feels like it is projected way down the hill from the toe piece, but in reality I think it is 90° to it.  I think this allignment would probably be considered "forward" of center by most skiers, but not sure.

I obviously believe it is key to to have the center of the chest projected forward over the center of the ski in order to generate early shovel edge pressure in the high "C" to initiate the turn, which gains the skier the advantage of being able to have better "control" of the progressive edge pressures that build and move to the center of the skis as they enter the fall line.  As pressure reaches it's maximum at the turn finish, it is shifted to the center/aft section of the ski by extending the knees and closing the ankles.

I'll try to post a pic of a forward/centered dolphin turn, we've seen plenty examples of backseat ones.

Thanks for posting the time stamps this time!

Anyone can watch the video and see that less then a second later the skis are engaged again.  This is great dynamic skiing.  Sure, ski slow, on easy blue runs with small bumps, and someone can keep the tips on the snow the whole time.  We call them intermediates.  Slow boring, predicatable.  Yes I agree, if you got back the like the CSIA guys you would have no chancce of gettign forward to reengaging the skis like they do, and you would crash.  I  understand your need to keep it slow and controlled.  That is fine, but dont mistake your intermediate approach as anything but.  Great skiing needs to be watched in motion.  Not split second screen shots.  A good eye and understanding can work with those shots, but you have clearly got it way wrong.  Just look at the video.  The skiing is far more dynamic then yours.  They are skiing faster, with better rythm on bigger bumps, on a steeper run!!!!!!!!!!!  You are slow, shopping for turns, small bumps, shallow pitch.  You wont be able to progress until you learn to work fore/aft.  With your stance, you would go over the handle bars with a run that steep, at thier speed with those bumps.  Watch the pros, and learn.   

Experts rip it up, get air, and throw em back down.

Sorry but while I stood at the bottom of the hill waiting for you....I wouldnt be thinking, I need to ski more like him.  No one would.

PS: A dolphin turn, has nothing to do with a "pivot". Nor is it a goto move or exercise, just a good one for someone like you to work on.  Further COM is not a matter of opinion, it is an actual point that has real meaning in physics.  Look it up.

I think the biggest irony here is that the turns you do, is what many consider "ski instructor" turns.  Slow boring, no rythm, no life, not dynamic.  And you are not a ski instructor.  The actual instructors skiing is what you strive for, fast, fun, dynamic, rythmical, skiing the terrain as it comes...yet you are dumping on it!.  Too funny.  I guess those guys in the other video I posted suck too, because they also work fore/aft?  Too funny.

OK, we're getting somewhere here!

First off though, and likely a large part of the confusion, the COM refers to centre of mass, not centre of chest. The centre of mass is a mobile point, and as we learned back in high school, oftentimes is not located within the mass itself. Example, consider a donut, the COM is in the hole, empty space outside of the mass itself. Make sense? So for a person, if we're standing tall and perfectly upright, the COM should be dead centre in the chest. For a skier in full flexion, the COM will probably be somewhere in the air between the chest and the knees. For a skier in a relaxed, slightly flexed ready position, the COM will be slightly in front of the chest.

Now, take a look at some of those photos again, cause many showed skiers with a COM right over the ski boots. Many others showed skiers in a temporarily state of backseatedness that's about a tenth of a second away from a full recovery. And a few show skiers in a somewhat awkward, not so great looking positions. But hey, its bumps, that'll happen to the best of us. If I wanted to be mean I could grab a bunch of unflattering stills from your video too.

And now, the video! If we were to agree to disagree on the technique side, I'd say its some decently strong skiing. But what made me laugh a little bit is that the best turns in that video look a lot like the CSIA guys, pushing the skis/feet forward into the bumps (which, by the way, all the CSIA guys are doing in that video, even if you wont admit it. How would they be getting air otherwise?) and recovering over the backside. The difference I see is that you compensate by folding over at the waist to try to keep up to your feet, and land quite flat on your ski, where the CSIA guys let the feet go ahead for that split second and then bring them back without getting folded over, and make their landing by opening the ankles and getting their shovel edges on the snow as soon as possible. Sounds like the start of a good QCT doesn't it?! Now, granted, I didn't go through your video with a fine toothed comb, but the best example I noticed of this is the turn at about 44-45 seconds, which is one of the only turns that takes you over a bump anywhere near the size of the ones in the other video. If I were to give you some tips for skiing bumps, I would suggest trying to get that early tip pressure by opening your ankles rather than keeping your weight on your tips all the time.

But even if none of all that really works for you, the proof is in the pudding. I really don't see how its possible to criticize such high level skiing beyond picking out a turn here and there that could have been a bit better. But those guys are skiing steep, big bumps at a pretty decent clip, and doing so while maintaining their balance and control the entire time. And while I'm glad for you if you're happy with your technique and not interested in hearing about anything else, if you think that you'd be able to keep up to those guys (or me, for that matter) skiing the way you do, you're dreaming.

What do you think of cvj's for-aft state in this video?

For the terrain/situation/speed.......Not bad.

I would say a touch forward at times.  You can see this by the forward pivot point.  A touch further back the pivot point would move back and he would be able to carve better.

It needs to be understood we move back in ANTCIPATION of our feet slowing.  The more our feet will slow, and the quicker they will slow, the more we need to anticapte by movng our COM back.  In this video the speeds are slow, the bumps are small, and run not steep, so the amount of slowing is not huge, thus he doesnt need to anticpate alot.  Although when required you can see him do it.

44 seconds is a good example.  The speeds are picking up and the bump faces appear to be getting steeper, thus more anticpation required.

Being able to anticapate well takes experience, it the ability to do it, or not, really separates the experts from the advanced, and the advanced from the intermediates.  it is why skiing bumps gets tougher as the bumps get bigger, the faces get steeper or you go faster, or the run gets steeper.  More management of fore/aft balance is required, that requires the ability to anticipate.

This is why in the CSIA video the guys move back alot to anticapte the feet slowing, they are steep run, at speed, with steep bump faces.  They anticpate, HIT, then seem to be back ontop right away...that is why, the feet are slowing very quickly thus the body just moves overtop.  That is also why it looks so smooth despite the speed and roughness of terrain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamt 

What do you think of cvj's for-aft state in this video?

 

Fore-aft looks okay, although at a few spots in the first couple runs it looks like he's getting his COM bounced vertically, maybe from being too stiff when he hits the front of a mogul (or just not anticipating it enough).

There's still a huge hop/slide/pivot of the skis through the transition.  Not much (if any) edge getting used before the fall line.  (Watch the slow-motion sections and look at when there is and isn't snow coming off the edges.)  Again -- nothing wrong with that, but Nailbender keeps saying things like:

Which is just inexplicable, because I haven't seen a "QCT" video yet where they're doing that at all.  The second guy in the CSIA demo video, though...

I understand the confusion in the concept of the COM and how it is mobile, that's why I stated I consider it the center of my chest because I think it is very confusing to myself and possibly others to visualize this point while it is moving and somewhere in space.  Although my COM may move out of my body and in space, the way I ski, it certainly feels as though it is located in the center of my chest.

When I ski, I focus mainly on maintaining a steady and floating point which is the center of my chest.  Everything I do, the movements I make are all in direct relationship to a perceivable fixed point in the center of my chest.  The center of my chest is the center point of the pendulum as my feet travel laterally beneath me from side to side or lineally as my feet move fore and aft in relationship to the fall line.  A better description and actually more realistic to the sensation is maintaining a steady, almost gyroscopic center point at the center of the chest.

I say I try to maintain a my center of chest as a floating point, because when I ski moguls, I attempt to mimic the floating/weightless sensation of powder skiing, forward and steady straight down the fall line.  I obviously can't maintain this feeling 100% of the time, but I try to get the feeling back as soon as possible when I lose it.

Sure it is decent skiing, these guys are pros and it shows.  I'm also not saying their basic movements and intentions are wrong.  I believe they are doing a lot of things right, it's just that they could be so much better if they were able to maintain a more forward aggressive and upright stance.  It would allow them to regain shovel edge contact during transition or early in the high "C" instead of resorting to the dolphin turn recovery where the edges don't hook up until the fall line of later.  They are late in a majority of their turns, late in initiating edge pressure which results in  hanging on their edges to far back at the turn finish, this is why they get blown out the bottom of the section with GS turns.

I disagree that the CSIA guys are typically "stuffing the tips" into the mogul face and going over the tops.  When you turn into the mogul face, the skier is basically finishing the turn straight down the fall line,  they are deflecting laterally near or off the bottom of the mogul sidewall/rut, especially the dolphin turns.  The skiing is very similar to the "technical mogul skiing" video above where the skiers are making very smooth and  snappy carves through the zipperline.  The terrain the CSIA skiers are skiing though is much more demanding, it's steeper and random, very disorganized moguls/ruts.

Here's what "stuffing the tips" or turning into the mogul face looks like and then the sweet backside turn that is linked next. The skier has to be forward to and have the ability to generate early shovel pressure in the high "C" in order to stick these turns, it raises the bar to advanced mogul skiing.  A dolphin turn here leads to quite a thrill ride, it's the last option IMO.  Why pass up "natures best groomed snow" on that relatively untouched backside.

I don't think you could grab any turns in those locations from the CSIA video, over the tops mogul skiing down the technical line.

Holiday is filled with huge randdom moguls, the one in the pics above is actually jumbo.  I thought the moguls in the CSIA video looked inviting and very similar actually, I'd like to ski them sometime, what is that run called?

You should read what I am promoting, early shovel edge pressure that progressively moves to the center and then aft at the turn finish,  The shovels are still pressured at the turn finish, but pressure is focused centered/aft. IMO, the CSIA skiers are late in most turns and ride either airborne/zero pressure anywhere or centered/aft through the turn.  I think the pics above show that clearly.

Pretty funny AA,   Are you suggesting that I ONLY generate shovel edge pressure in all phases of my turns?  Are you suggesting I DON'T open my ankles while simultaneously retracting/flexing my knees,  everting/inverting my ankles and extending my hips during transition?  Sheeesh....every turn is more like it.  Did you watch the video?  I assume you are not suggesting opening my ankles at the turn finish, but your comment is, well vague at best.  I'm not the skier that is failiing to generate shovel edge pressure to intiate the next turn, the CSIA skiers are.

I think you should post some vide of yourself skiing some moguls so I can see some more CSIA mogul skiing, so I can continue "dreaming" of keeping up with you guys.  You could more clearly explain the benfits of the movements you are making to control speed and maintain line/ fluidity beside using dolphin turns to constantly attempt to recover.

Maybe I'm being derilect here, I simply fail to see how developing a better dolphin turn, which IMO is nothing more than an airborne/pivot recovery move, is going to ehance my mogul skiing.  I find it revealing that you seem to fail to understand that ANY skier that can navigate the technical line and carry speed has a quite proficient dolphin turn in their quiver, they just don't need it very often.  It's there and they know when they need to use it.

Nail, what's your feedback on posts 221 and 236?

I think it is more like, take a good look at these videos to see what the skiers are doing as they prepare for the next rut. 

These guys are all skiing around the moguls, totally avoiding them.

I like the "technical mogul skiing" video a lot more than the Austrian video.  The skiers get their shovel edges down and engaged early,   Is Berger in that video?  It sure looks like him.  Lots of deflecting zipperline skiing, it's amazing how long and consistent those zippers are.  I wish a few of them would up the bar and try navigating the technical line.  I've seen enough zipperlining to last me a lifetime and I'm sure I'll see a lot more, both live and video.  Freestyle competitions are pure zipperline, such is life.