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Is inclination ever needed or used? - Page 2

post #31 of 40

I find angulation is way quicker from edge to edge & a better edge hold but some times for a the weightless feel in the transition inclination is kinda fun.

post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Bode going to the bank!


So he has the money to pay for a nice meal at the PIVOT Cafe.

post #33 of 40

The answer to the question about inclinations is simple YES you need to incline. The bigger questions is how much inclination, and where to get the biggest bang for the buck. What determines this is centrifugal force. Take a motorcycle or bicycle as an example at low speed if you tip a bike over it falls. At high speed a motorcycle riders inside knee is sometimes touching on a turn. If you watch world cup skiing footage closely you will see the hip and hand within inches of the snow surface and in some instances in contact with the snow especially in slalom racing. So are they inclined, and is there angulation too? YOU BET. In any turn you need to blend the two moving inside the arc early on balanced edges to get grip, this allows the skiers to direct the skis and change the turn shape at will. As the pressure builds towards the fall line the farther you are inside the arc with control the more defection and bending of the ski and thus a clean arc through release with angulation and increased edge angle to steer the skies back under the body and into the next turn. Remember you skies are like the tires on a car or a bike you steer them from your hip sockets smooth steering is the way to get clean rhythmical arcs on the snow. A race car driver has a light touch on the wheel and steers progressive and smoothly, think of skiing the same and your turns will flow with energy, rebound, rhythm and symmetry.  

post #34 of 40

Yes, Bode had the appetizer, the entre, and the desert at the Pivot Cafe.

 

Here he's just having the carving platter at the Bank ('03/4):

 

bode-pc-gs-1b.jpg

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2003-2004/slides/bode-pc-gs-1b.html

Photo: Ron LeMaster

 

 

Ingemar Stenmark taking it a little too far:

immagine1011201.jpg 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.discesalibera.it/lettura/tiporicerca.asp?pid=1011&catid=250

 

Good discussion from '05 on pivot/stivot that's where I got the above photo.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/33741/stivot-steering-carve-new-technique/60

post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpineway View Post

The answer to the question about inclinations is simple YES you need to incline. The bigger questions is how much inclination, and where to get the biggest bang for the buck. What determines this is centrifugal force. Take a motorcycle or bicycle as an example at low speed if you tip a bike over it falls. At high speed a motorcycle riders inside knee is sometimes touching on a turn. If you watch world cup skiing footage closely you will see the hip and hand within inches of the snow surface and in some instances in contact with the snow especially in slalom racing. So are they inclined, and is there angulation too? YOU BET. In any turn you need to blend the two moving inside the arc early on balanced edges to get grip, this allows the skiers to direct the skis and change the turn shape at will. As the pressure builds towards the fall line the farther you are inside the arc with control the more defection and bending of the ski and thus a clean arc through release with angulation and increased edge angle to steer the skies back under the body and into the next turn. Remember you skies are like the tires on a car or a bike you steer them from your hip sockets smooth steering is the way to get clean rhythmical arcs on the snow. A race car driver has a light touch on the wheel and steers progressive and smoothly, think of skiing the same and your turns will flow with energy, rebound, rhythm and symmetry.  


Ah............finally...............somebody I can relate to.  That's one of the best first posts I have ever seen on EpicSki.  Welcome aboardbeercheer.gif

 

post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpineway View Post

The answer to the question about inclinations is simple YES you need to incline. The bigger questions is how much inclination, and where to get the biggest bang for the buck. What determines this is centrifugal force. Take a motorcycle or bicycle as an example at low speed if you tip a bike over it falls. At high speed a motorcycle riders inside knee is sometimes touching on a turn. If you watch world cup skiing footage closely you will see the hip and hand within inches of the snow surface and in some instances in contact with the snow especially in slalom racing. So are they inclined, and is there angulation too? YOU BET. In any turn you need to blend the two moving inside the arc early on balanced edges to get grip, this allows the skiers to direct the skis and change the turn shape at will. As the pressure builds towards the fall line the farther you are inside the arc with control the more defection and bending of the ski and thus a clean arc through release with angulation and increased edge angle to steer the skies back under the body and into the next turn. Remember you skies are like the tires on a car or a bike you steer them from your hip sockets smooth steering is the way to get clean rhythmical arcs on the snow. A race car driver has a light touch on the wheel and steers progressive and smoothly, think of skiing the same and your turns will flow with energy, rebound, rhythm and symmetry.  


icon14.gif
 

 

post #37 of 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRCltg8CPwQ Watch this vid and stop at 38 and 1:11 seconds ( for eg) Look for the LESS EXTREME TURNS. This, if you go slow and frame by frame shows inclination... Of course this guy takes it to the point of impractical. But you can see the inclination phase and if you go frame by frame you can see how short the inclination phase lasts for a turn. The purpose of inclining is to get the Mass inside the ski arc. Then, control the edge angle from the bend - Angulation - at the waist... as stacked bones in the outside leg manage the G-forces. Lateral knee movements are merely for fine tuning the edge angle. As carved turns gets hampered by rough or steep conditions you give it up for more pivot and a more upright stance and more reliance on lower body positions - Angulation - for balance.
post #38 of 40
ps You can see this guy losing his angulation and then booting out because his body is turned uphill half the time.
post #39 of 40

Too Funny!!  I work with "The Sturgoenater" or as I like to call him....  "Super Sammy".  He IMO a very good skier who will be happy to tell you all about it if you happen to talk with him for very long.

 

I am actually surprised to see Sam not looking very good in this video.  He loves to ski on one foot and makes it look pretty good at high speeds.  He was a gymnast when he was younger and it shows in his balance and athleticism.  I suspect that Sam was playing around trying to see how far inside he could get and trying to put both hands on the uphill side.  I work with Sam at the Uppers line-up and know that he can Angulate and balance much better than shown in this video.  As mentioned in the video itself, the conditions don't appear to be very good for "extreme carving".

post #40 of 40


Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post


 

My banking skills or my ability to incline are weak, so I tend to deliberately weight the outside ski.  I keep my knees towards the inside and "hold on" with my edges - high edge angles even on not too steep terrain.  I also like the "feeling" of locking on to a turn and that seems the only way that I can do that.

 

I would like to be able to use less edge angle and improve my ability to bank my turns on easier terrain while skiing fast.  It seems like a more relaxed way to ski while shifting to aggressive angulation when grip deteriorates.  Followed Bob Barns while he was banking turns and he was tall and relaxed and graceful.
 

 


Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

I see we all still have our dancing shoes on and are trotting all over the place.

 

I think we all understand what angulation is, so no need to cover that again.  Inclination occurs when angulation alone is insufficient to manage the forces created.  These are both moves we use to counter external forces as SkiDude pointed out earlier.  We don't decide how far to "incline ourselves".  Our body just goes there to counter the forces acting upon us.  Do I use it ?  You bet

 

When we do "incline ourselves" by using our muscle and bone structure and brain to decide how far to intentionally lean to the inside it's banking.  We made the decision to "lean into" the turn and hope it equals the forces acting upon us.  Not the best idea.  Do I use it ?  Sure, and it's a mistake every time !


Inclined, banking or both........I am a bit confused?

 

From personal experience achieving sufficient angulation is not easy. From my on snow observations this applies to the vast majority of skiers on the mountain. With the considerable ski angles as shown in the montages below, is the lack of angulation desirable? Does it convey the right visual message of upper body position/movements?

 

BB inclining.jpg BB inclining 2.jpg
 

 

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