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Are "Hike-to" areas patrolled? - Page 3

post #61 of 89

Hey YOUR OWN WORDS:

 

I also have become super protective of it and when people see me hiking with people I flat out am jerk to them.

 

"I get how's the snow up there?"

 

my new standard answer is icey as all hell because truthfully I really dont know till I go up there, unless they are prepared for the worst they have no business being up there.  Then how about just telling them you don't know?

 

"how easy is it to get back"

 

my response "not at all, if you have to ask that question" you can flat out see an easy way back to the resort from both the bottom and the top. If they dont have enough common sense to see the way back to the resort they have no business being up there.  Once again, just answer the question, they don't know the terrain, they are looking for information.

 

"how long does the hike take?"

 

my response

"where are you going?"  most have no idea where they are going

 

"can I follow you?"

 

"heck no"  Just tell them you're not comfortable being responsible for people whose abilities you don't know.  No reason to be a CREEP about it.  Personally, I'll spend the time telling them the easiest route and what to watch out for.  Doesn't mean I'm responsible for them getting down, just that I'm giving them the information they need to make an intelligent decision.  I find it appalling that a ski area employee (you just said you're teaching, right?) would be so nasty to people looking for a little guidance. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 




its not about being core. If you were skiing out of bounds would you want random people following you that you are now responsible for?

 

alot of time I dont have time, its the end of the day I have taught all day and I now I want to go have fun with my buddies on my last run. I dont have time to evaluate someone else nor should I have to.

 

 

Plus before you start calling someone a creep I bet I have guided alot of epic people, and will continue to do so but I either A. know these people or B. have time to ski with them before we go to gnarly stuff.



 

post #62 of 89

one of my co-workers spent 45 minutes hiking up to the chin yesterday only to find a woman, on her own, in so far over her head that he had to let her hold onto his arm as he helped her sideslip down... BWPA is right. There are WAY too many people who put themselves into a position that makes other people have to help them to not get hurt. That's just plain unfair and should not be encouraged in any way.

post #63 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


 

 

your grey areas are made up in your on mind, The slides at whiteface are inbounds, when they are open. You dont need avy gear to go ski the slides if they are open.

 

At stowe the main hike to the chin is clearly marked as out of bounds. It can be fairly easy and beign to figure out how to ski the good stuff up high. i figured it out pretty much by myself last year how to do alot of the different runs with no help and alone.(do as I say not as I do).

 

I also have become super protective of it and when people see me hiking with people I flat out am jerk to them.

 

"I get how's the snow up there?"

 

my new standard answer is icey as all hell because truthfully I really dont know till I go up there, unless they are prepared for the worst they have no business being up there.

 

"how easy is it to get back"

 

my response "not at all, if you have to ask that question" you can flat out see an easy way back to the resort from both the bottom and the top. If they dont have enough common sense to see the way back to the resort they have no business being up there.

 

"how long does the hike take?"

 

my response

"where are you going?"  most have no idea where they are going

 

"can I follow you?"

 

"heck no"

 

The thing is anyone who is prepared to be in those areas has done enough research/ has the skills to navigate them with out being a burden to others. Anyone who is asking those questions above wants all of the reward with none of the risk or hardship that goes into finding spots to ski outside of a resort. I have spent alot of time beating tree branches out of my face, side stepping down sketchy chutes, skiing shitty snow and getting cliffed out. to just tell someone who is at stowe for a the day and not my friend yep go here and youll get untracked powder in perfectly spaced trees.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



This sounds like a whole lot of being jaded on the slopes.  I guess after years of newbies approaching you?

 

I'm really only two years into skiing, but my best turns have always been after hooking up with some locals who were nice enough to show me the way.  In Breck, I made some turns with ex-patrollers and off-duty instructors who were cool enough to let me tail them through some terrain that I've yet to encounter in the east (I haven't skied much vermont, but the lines we took in Needles Eye at breck made anything at Jay Peak look like a walk in the park).   And at Jay I approached a few guys who finished the HH ski the east competition, and they were nice enough to let show me the ways down the ridge.  If it weren't for these guys, I wouldn't have found the best part of Jay!  The ridge is a whole different lift-accessed mountain in itself IMO.

 

 

After all, we are all sliding down a big white hill with sticks on our feet, right? 

 

 

And btw, I skied whiteface last year, and they had some rating system with the slides where they did require avy gear on certain days.

 

post #64 of 89



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post

one of my co-workers spent 45 minutes hiking up to the chin yesterday only to find a woman, on her own, in so far over her head that he had to let her hold onto his arm as he helped her sideslip down... BWPA is right. There are WAY too many people who put themselves into a position that makes other people have to help them to not get hurt. That's just plain unfair and should not be encouraged in any way.



Well,  while hiking the ridge at Jay, there was an little Asian women in regular clothing and shoes, a trench coat, sunglasses, and carrying a briefcase who got off the tram and followed us up the steps to the ridge. She eventually turned around and went back.

 

I'm still baffled and will be for the rest of my life.

 

post #65 of 89

I have no idea what you are referring to. perhaps a direct quote would help, but I'm pretty sure I didn't react personally or make any harsh allegations or unfair, cruel value judgments anywhere. I have repeatedly said it takes experience to be off the main pistes, by yourself, skiing great lines, and still being safe. "....gene pool";  "deserve to die...."; man, I have no idea where this sh#$ comes from.

 

I'm not a patrol, but where I ski we have all become aware of what's involved for patrol, and it's an eye opener, so I explain what I know so they don't have to.

 

I think it's true that you earn your turns in secret stashes, and a lot of experience is needed to pull it off safely. No offense, just how it is.

 

I like BWPA's comment on how that time in secret stashes is earned: scrapes and cuts, lousy runs, things that don't work out, collecting memories to guide you next time, etc.

 

You can't ask so much about how the resort will be protecting you from yourself and not leave the impression that you are clueless.

 

Bringing up my Tripple A in this lame context is way over the top and totally inappropriate.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

OK.  This is all very helpful.  The message is:  don't ski alone in questionable areas, especially after 2:00 PM.

 

For the record I don't consider "extreme terrain" to be difficult in the right conditions, it's just (for example) if you tear your acl or something and lose your cell phone in the snow (or can't get bars), you're gonna have a long and painful journey back to civilization.  Maybe barring a dead battery in your cell phone or something like that this is not as much of an issue as it perhaps once was.

 

 

davluri you are taking my non-existent "putting this on resort personnel" way too personally.  Are you a patroller?  Based on another thread, it seems that patrol actually saved your life.  So I think you can appreciate the need for patrol when something totally unexpected (an AAA) happens.  Your patrol won an award, and we at Epicski applaud them.  I'd hate to be skiing at a resort where the message is: "tough shit you're not fit for the gene pool." (as you put it in so many words).  And the intimation any skier deserves to die when skiing an off-piste area is a little harsh.  Perhaps you can save such talk for TGR.  And davluri, no offense to ski patrol if you are one, but part of their job is "patrolling" the in-bounds portions of mountains.

 

If an area is going to be "in-bounds" there theoretically would be some expectation of "patrol coverage."  But I wasn't sure about that and it's clear from responses here that there is in fact no guarantees and a skier must look out for himself or herself to a degree.

 

 

Anyway it's nice to know Epicski ambassadors are here for assistance at specific resorts.



 

post #66 of 89
Thread Starter 

It was your reference to "darwinian" things... that implies that people with poor genetic makeup do not reproduce, die out, and are replaced by those with genetic makeups that are conducive to survival.

 

At a literal level, that is what your reference is about... and I consider that just as inappropriate as me reminding you that ski patrol saved you in a totally unpredicted emergency (which you volunteered on this forum),  Now, if your intention was not to imply that some skiers deserve to die, you shouldn't have used reference to natural selection.

 

 

And dude don't read too much into what I'm asking... this is not about me wanting to go poach secret powder stashes on sick lines.  This is about me wanting to explore areas and types of terrain I don't normally get to ski... that are not lift-served.  You are right I have absolutely no experience hiking to a place to have access to extreme terrain.  When I skied Tower 3 and Alta 1, those were both accessed from a lift, and are both right beneath a lift, so going unnoticed in event of injury would not be of concern to me.  This thread is about the very specific issue of hiking to terrain, most or all of which may not even be difficult to ski, but may be "off the grid" of the high-traffic resort areas.  And anybody who is familiar with WP knows that the Vasquez Cirque is just about as far away from the WP base as you can get, and is REALLY not "visible."

 

 

 

 

post #67 of 89

Darwinism is about sex, survival of those who mate, literally speaking,  tossing out your disproved survival of the fittest crap. The way I used it is just an expression, like "organ donor"

post #68 of 89
Thread Starter 

With all do respect based on "experience" I do not need an explanation on the meaning of "darwinian."

 

However, it is fair enough if your reference to it wasn't supposed to be literal (though I hold that to people who know what that means and the whole message, it was all a little harsh).  Your message that you communicated with the words you typed can be interpreted as: "you deserve to die if you go ski there and are inexperienced."  Perhaps that is just as blatant of a misrepresentation of what you were trying to communicate as you claiming I am "blaming resorts" or having "expectations" when in fact I pose a question, and intermittently might offer theoretical observations of things in the context of asking a question.

 

Anyway man I dont' think we should argue anymore about this.  Ultimately, your point was taken and I appreciate the insight about skiing in such areas.

 

If I'm skiing alone out west again and want to explore a remote area, I'll contact an ambassador or something, or just pay up and get a guide to take me.

post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post


 

When we did "Team Loel" at Snowbird he lambasted someone who followed us into Tiger Tail.  At the time I was taken aback, but after reflection I realized he was right.  (For context, it is inbounds, but gate controlled, and right next to the boundary.)
 

 

 

 Loel is extremely protective off the terrain as well not only that people shouldnt follow random group of people on the mountain even inbounds.
 

 

post #70 of 89


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Hey YOUR OWN WORDS:

 

I also have become super protective of it and when people see me hiking with people I flat out am jerk to them.

 

"I get how's the snow up there?"

 

my new standard answer is icey as all hell because truthfully I really dont know till I go up there, unless they are prepared for the worst they have no business being up there.  Then how about just telling them you don't know?

 

"how easy is it to get back"

 

my response "not at all, if you have to ask that question" you can flat out see an easy way back to the resort from both the bottom and the top. If they dont have enough common sense to see the way back to the resort they have no business being up there.  Once again, just answer the question, they don't know the terrain, they are looking for information.

 

"how long does the hike take?"

 

my response

"where are you going?"  most have no idea where they are going

 

"can I follow you?"

 

"heck no"  Just tell them you're not comfortable being responsible for people whose abilities you don't know.  No reason to be a CREEP about it.  Personally, I'll spend the time telling them the easiest route and what to watch out for.  Doesn't mean I'm responsible for them getting down, just that I'm giving them the information they need to make an intelligent decision.  I find it appalling that a ski area employee (you just said you're teaching, right?) would be so nasty to people looking for a little guidance. 


 



 

 

 


 

you not getting this. We are talking about true out of bounds noone is going to rescue without huge money and huge risk to themselves terrain. Its also a risk to resort employe and gives the resort a bad name when people get lost. I am also never in jacket when hiking and as far as the people I am firmly telling no, to know, I dont work there. We are also talking about an area that is outside of the resort.  there are tons of people asking these question who have no business being there. The people that have business being there I am sure would never ask in the first place, and if they did and got a response like mine they would probably go anyways because they know better.

 

I also wanted to say I have found nearly every run at Stowe by myself, the routes arent hard to find with some research, and alittle bit of knowledge by looking at the place. With that said following random tracks in this area can and will get you killed. there are easier ways down but nothing I would say is easy. Could you imagine being the poor soul who followed these guys tracks?

 

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/trip-reports/10-11/the-other-winter-carnival-part-i-unconvential-terrain/2/

 

these are some pictures from the 'easy way down" from the chin.

 

206594_10150135336193357_505253356_6491342_4217565_n.jpg

 

200096_10150135337738357_505253356_6491347_7366286_n.jpg

 

 

 

sending random people up there is not a good thing.

 

 

 

 

post #71 of 89

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post




Davluri, again, I have no expectations.  And as such, I want to inform myself of the situation before entering into a potentially hazardous situation.

 

I appreciate the reminder that ski areas are different from Disneyland... but even at Disneyland there need to be boundaries to prevent children from wandering into the Anaheim backcountry, which could be devastating.

 

It is indeed important to remember that skiing is an overall potentially risky activity, but I know that.  That's not what this thread is about.

 

There IS some expectation a ski patroller or another skier would find an injured person on a groomer and signal for help.  However, in some areas in question when there is not alot of traffic it brings up some questions.

 

 

Now, I'm well aware of the situation in trees, but what about open bowls that are "hike-to"???  Would/does ski patrol use binoculars to make sure there are no people in trouble up there?

 

 

(Let's also avoid making assumptions about one another's ability... I'll leave it at that... that is another thing this thread isn't about.  Nobody posting here is a beginner.  What this thread makes reference to is ACCIDENTS for which you cannot always prepare)

 

BoredAt:

 

I think that's sort of the point some of the replies have been trying to make, although not very diplomatically.

 

Here at Jackson Hole, we have a whole bunch of hike-to areas.  Some of them that are technically inbounds are controlled and patrolled (like Headwall and Upper Casper Bowl) but you still have to go through an out-of-bounds gate to get to them.  (And don't feel bad about not knowing where the Crags fits in the lineup - nobody here knows either.)

 

Most of our hike-to stuff is NOT patrolled and not controlled, but ski patrol goes there - occasionally - to sort of keep an eye on things and stay familiar with snow conditions outside of the controlled areas.  That doesn't mean they're ever going to find that one person who's injured and down next to a tree or below a rock.  They don't (to my knowledge) ever use binoculars to scan OUR open bowls because a good share of the time the visibility sucks and you can't see 50 feet much less a mile. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that there's an enormous amount of hike-to terrain that can be fairly easily accessed by almost any skier.  Some of it is snow-controlled (but nobody with any experience around avalanches takes that as a license to just head there and start skiing) and some of it is patrolled.  A patroller sweep at the end of a day is far from foolproof, even though they do the best job they can.

 

As has been said plenty of times in this thread, skiing is inherently a somewhat dangerous sport - even on groomed runs.  When you factor in huge mountains and off-piste terrain in an alpine environment, it becomes more so.  It's simply not realistic to think that the ski patrol is going to find everyone who gets in trouble in that kind of scenario.  There are lots and lots of gray areas.  

 

Personally, I look at the idea of skiing terrain like that as a decision that I'm making for myself.  While I certainly HOPE that the patrol or SAR will come rescue me if I get in trouble, I also know that I've made a choice when I went through the gate and there's a chance (hopefully a fairly small one) that I could pay a pretty high price for making that choice.  I'm comfortable with that and I don't blame the ski resort for not marking things better or having more patrol available if it turns out I need them.

 

  

 

post #72 of 89

There are places that are technically open that patrol will ask me not to ski because people may follow my tracks out and not adhere to a line that gets them back. Tracks are a big part of why people who don't know an area go the wrong way in side country.

post #73 of 89


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post

To say simply "stay away from the margins" is simple insider arrogance.  I would wager that most people who are familiar with a particular area's in-bounds, side-country, and out-of-bounds discovered it through a process of careful exploration, conversation, and query.  That's how I found my way around Alta, Brighton, Snowbasin.  No one "just knows".  Everyone learned from something or someone; I'm simply wishing for a bit more proactive, user-friendly learning experience.

 


Bad form. "" indicates a direct quote -- it is not for creative paraphrasing.

 

Damn right. It took me a whole season to fully explore and learn every nook and cranny of my home ski hill. And I still ended up finding a few new places this season with our epic 10'+ snowpack we have had.  I am still learning snowbasin after skiing there maybe 15-20 days in the last 4 years.

 

If you don't know the area then don't ski at the margins -- that is great advice for exploring. If you ski right down the middle then you can get a look at terrain on your left and your right. If you ski far right, then you can only learn terrain on your left  - so cleaving to the margins means it takes longer to get a good look at the area in question. As you explore questions like "is there another traverse out below me (besides this one)?" answer themselves. If you have skied this traverse before then you intuitively "just know" that any trail you saw merging from below would indicate a lower traverse available to you. And if you didn't see one then its probably not there.

 

As far as "just knowing" things. Some people are more spatially-perceptive than others. If you can look at a face and find the lines to climb up and ski down it, if you can judge distance and know how steep a slope is just by looking at it and you "just know" what aspect you are standing on, and if someone asks, which way is north and you just point. If some one asks, where are we? And you can just point to the spot on the map because the map is already in your head -- then you have a good sense of direction and your hunch / intuition the one that is telling you I can get there from here, its probably right. 


Edited by tromano - 4/12/11 at 8:10pm
post #74 of 89

I once took my Airedale out around the sidecountry of Rose for some tely-ing one day. The fog came down on us like a curtain at the end of a play and I had no clue where I was. The dog kept trying to go a certain way and I wanted to go another. Finally I followed him.....straight to the trailhead! Spatially perceptive and knew the smell of wet asphalt for miles and tired of following my dumb human a%$ around. (Rose is not my home mountain)

post #75 of 89

I'd just like to chime in here and pretty much back up Josh (BWinPA) 100%. 

 

Don't follow tracks. Period. Certainly don't ask if you can follow someone's tracks unless you're fully prepared to get a really cold response. To think you might be welcomed with open arms is frankly naive. There's tons of reasons why to not follow/not ask/not show everyone about lines, and Josh has pointed them all out pretty much, but just to summarize.

 

1.) You don't know what you're getting into.

 

2.) You're a risk to a potential rescue party

 

3.) It's rude. The person might just maybe want to keep a stash to themselves... just for a second imagine the tables are turned. Have just SOME respect! I know this is an especially hard one for folks to grasp.

 

4.) You can and should figure this stuff out on your own if you want to access it. At the very least think about becoming a member of the mtn community, and making * real * friends who will be eager to show you around. Just like in real life though, you get what you put in. Don't expect someone to just give you everything for nothing in return...

 

5.) You may be following someone who knows you're following them and may be purposefully leading you to a decoy or an extremely dangerous area that they are prepared for, and you may not be.

 

6.) You may be going off the wrong side of the mountain.

 

I've been shown a fair amount of terrain... I've found a fair amount of terrain... I've authored a fair amount of terrain. Each new twist and turn I discover/learn/am-shown, the more respect I have for the mountains. The point is learning any backcountry zone is more about respect than you can possibly imagine. You should seriously consider before you follow tracks, ask someone where they're going when you have NO IDEA, or show someone some line on the mountain, where you fit into the big picture. It all boils down to respect, and hoping walking up some bootpack, following someone else, and asking if you can get shown smacks of DISrespect... 

 

get what I'm saying?

 

In any case Josh, thanks for this link! 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

Could you imagine being the poor soul who followed these guys tracks?

 

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/trip-reports/10-11/the-other-winter-carnival-part-i-unconvential-terrain/

 

 



 

post #76 of 89

Group of Swiss guys skiing offpiste followed some tracks at my mountain a few weeks back. They were never out of site of the tram, in fact when they had to be heli-lifted out, skiers on the tram got to watch the whole thing. If they'd skied down another ten meters or so, they would have died for sure. Don't follow tracks.

post #77 of 89



 

Quote
  

 

Originally Posted by tromano View Post


Bad form. "" indicates a direct quote -- it is not for creative paraphrasing.

 

Your words from post 44:  "If you don't know then don't ski at the margins. Its that simple". 
You are right; I did not quote you exactly.  I apologize.  I wanted to convey the sense of conversation by my introduction "To say....".  However, I would take issue that I engaged in creative paraphrasing.  I believe the message (which is elaborated on below) CAN be summarized as "stay away from the margins".  Isn't that exactly what you say here next?

 

 

Damn right. It took me a whole season to fully explore and learn every nook and cranny of my home ski hill. And I still ended up finding a few new places this season with our epic 10'+ snowpack we have had.  I am still learning snowbasin after skiing there maybe 15-20 days in the last 4 years.

 

If you don't know the area then don't ski at the margins -- that is great advice for exploring. If you ski right down the middle then you can get a look at terrain on your left and your right. If you ski far right, then you can only learn terrain on your left  - so cleaving to the margins means it takes longer to get a good look at the area in question. As you explore questions like "is there another traverse out below me (besides this one)?" answer themselves. If you have skied this traverse before then you intuitively "just know" that any trail you saw merging from below would indicate a lower traverse available to you. And if you didn't see one then its probably not there.

 

As far as "just knowing" things. Some people are more spatially-perceptive than others. If you can look at a face and find the lines to climb up and ski down it, if you can judge distance and know how steep a slope is just by looking at it and you "just know" what aspect you are standing on, and if someone asks, which way is north and you just point. If some one asks, where are we? And you can just point to the spot on the map because the map is already in your head -- then you have a good sense of direction and your hunch / intuition the one that is telling you I can get there from here, its probably right. 

 

In fact, this is the very process I and other "newcomers" engage in to orient ourselves and gain some insight into potential interesting terrain.  But at some point, it is time to actually test out the perceptions.  And in that process, there are other discoveries -- some fortuitous, some not.  My observation -- and sentence --  is no one just "knows".  In fact,the process of exploration is part of what builds your knowledge.  Yet your sentence is "if you don't know, don't ski the margins".  This presupposes complete a priori knowledge -- and that is what I find arrogant.  You yourself engaged in the process I have been writing about and now you want to deny that exploration to others.


 

Finally, to bring it all back to my original observation: if ropes/gates/boundaries were more clearly explained, this process would be a little less fraught with uncertainty for those of us with different backgrounds.  As I said in a post above,  "a rope-off area with a gate that you enter to access terrain that is both inbounds and patrolled is not a common feature of Eastern skiing.  I don't know that it exists (perhaps it does at Jay or MRG or at the slides of Whiteface?).  I know I've never come across this in 25 years of skiing in the east.  To most eastern skiers, this seems confusing -- like marking a highway exit with a blinking red light".   This has been my observation and comment from the beginning -- and I stand by it.  Maybe it's my responsibility to get with the program; maybe the areas could do a better job of outlining their policies.....people's view on that will differ.



 

 

post #78 of 89

Each time it snows more than a foot, all the bamboo located on the mountain has to be replanted, twisted out and re-set by ski patrol; otherwise the bamboo pole gets frozen in and can not be easily moved. then the poles gradually get buried, which is dangerous and renders the pole useless. or there is meltage and the boo has to be replanted so that it doesn't fall over and pose a hazzard. So, on a big mountain, setting bamboo and rope is a pretty big, time consuming, endless job, and is reserved for critical areas, set in a way that works for the skier looking for boundaries and needing only an indication.

post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpetrics View Post

I'd just like to chime in here and pretty much back up Josh (BWinPA) 100%. 

 

Don't follow tracks. Period. Certainly don't ask if you can follow someone's tracks unless you're fully prepared to get a really cold response. To think you might be welcomed with open arms is frankly naive. There's tons of reasons why to not follow/not ask/not show everyone about lines, and Josh has pointed them all out pretty much, but just to summarize.

 

1.) You don't know what you're getting into.

 

2.) You're a risk to a potential rescue party

 

3.) It's rude. The person might just maybe want to keep a stash to themselves... just for a second imagine the tables are turned. Have just SOME respect! I know this is an especially hard one for folks to grasp.

 

4.) You can and should figure this stuff out on your own if you want to access it. At the very least think about becoming a member of the mtn community, and making * real * friends who will be eager to show you around. Just like in real life though, you get what you put in. Don't expect someone to just give you everything for nothing in return...

 

5.) You may be following someone who knows you're following them and may be purposefully leading you to a decoy or an extremely dangerous area that they are prepared for, and you may not be.

 

6.) You may be going off the wrong side of the mountain.

 

I've been shown a fair amount of terrain... I've found a fair amount of terrain... I've authored a fair amount of terrain. Each new twist and turn I discover/learn/am-shown, the more respect I have for the mountains. The point is learning any backcountry zone is more about respect than you can possibly imagine. You should seriously consider before you follow tracks, ask someone where they're going when you have NO IDEA, or show someone some line on the mountain, where you fit into the big picture. It all boils down to respect, and hoping walking up some bootpack, following someone else, and asking if you can get shown smacks of DISrespect... 

 

get what I'm saying?

 

In any case Josh, thanks for this link! 

 



 

 

Dude, this is a bit exaggerated. It's not really rude or disrespectful to ask someone if you can tag along, especially if you're a competent, skilled skier/rider. Honestly, there's a possibility you'll get a "yes". And if not, well all the original parties have to say is "no." There's no disrespect there. I've been in several situations where I just met someone on a lift and either they offered to show me their stash or considered joining me. Is it really that much different to talk to someone at the top of the lift about it? Just because you didn't have that extra 30 seconds of bull-shitting?

 

For the record, I prefer to find things on my own and don't tag along unless I'm invited. And I don't disagree that following tracks is a terrible idea. But tagging along with someone that knows what they're doing is a better idea. And it's not disrespectful in the least.
 

 

post #80 of 89

You know the concept that random acts of kindness spread and generate more kindness. A ski hill is the perfect place to give it a try, as positive energy is so easy to pick up on and add to, like a particle accelerator, take a little kindness, add your own, pick up the level a bit.

post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tch View Post



Finally, to bring it all back to my original observation: if ropes/gates/boundaries were more clearly explained, this process would be a little less fraught with uncertainty for those of us with different backgrounds.  As I said in a post above,  "a rope-off area with a gate that you enter to access terrain that is both inbounds and patrolled is not a common feature of Eastern skiing.  I don't know that it exists (perhaps it does at Jay or MRG or at the slides of Whiteface?).  I know I've never come across this in 25 years of skiing in the east.  To most eastern skiers, this seems confusing -- like marking a highway exit with a blinking red light".   This has been my observation and comment from the beginning -- and I stand by it.  Maybe it's my responsibility to get with the program; maybe the areas could do a better job of outlining their policies.....people's view on that will differ.



 

 


Since you insist on hammering this position home, what exactly would you like to see? And I'm not talking about some generic "do a better job of marking boundaries" bs, I'm talking about something specific. Your original story pertained to Snowbasin's Strawberry/Sisters boundary. That is marked with bright red signs that say "Ski Area Boundary". They're spaced about 20 feet apart and you really can't miss them from either side of the boundary. If you look at the trail map, it clearly shows that the boundary is over in that area, so even if there weren't an abundance of BRIGHT RED signs, you could figure it out. What else would you have them do?

 

It sounds like the only thing you were confused about is that other people's tracks extended past the boundaries. So what? That happens anywhere and drives the point that you shouldn't follow random tracks if you don't know where they lead. It doesn't mean the resort needs to do more.

 

For the record, in about 40 days of riding there, I've never left a boundary without knowing it. Snowbasin is about as clearly marked a resort as I've ever seen. Gates all over that delineate "unpatrolled, out-of-bounds" terrain vs. resort terrain. And it could be confusing, since several of the peaks and cirques (Mt. Ogden, chutes, Porky's, etc.) that are part of the upper mountain are outside resort boundaries. But these areas are served by gates with not only huge signs, but in some cases, beacon checkpoints.

 

post #82 of 89

My point exactly. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

You know the concept that random acts of kindness spread and generate more kindness. A ski hill is the perfect place to give it a try, as positive energy is so easy to pick up on and add to, like a particle accelerator, take a little kindness, add your own, pick up the level a bit.



 

post #83 of 89

Please, please never ski in Europe.....  In-bounds/Out-of-bounds does not exist in Europe.... it's on or off piste.  Sometimes the piste definition is sketchy on a clear day, let alone a white-out (trees??)!

 

Anyways I have skied East and West coast and never had any problems really identifying the various closures or the area boundary.  If you look close enough at a trail map, website or information board at the hill you will usually find a description of the various closure/marking types.  Every resort does things slightly different depending on the terrain they have to manage.  Snowbird I thought, was very clear in their use of closures, etc.

 

I think you can tell the end-of-season is starting to kick in.....

post #84 of 89

It seems odd to ask about what is patrolled on the internet, if you want to know the facts, ask the patrol at the mountain you want to ski; often there are some sitting in the patrol shack, waiting for something to do. biggrin.gif

post #85 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post

It seems odd to ask about what is patrolled on the internet, if you want to know the facts, ask the patrol at the mountain you want to ski; often there are some sitting in the patrol shack, waiting for something to do. biggrin.gif


1)  This is a good point that can go overlooked when spending ample amounts of time at epicski

 

however,

 

2) The point of epicski is to have discussions (at times informative discussions) on skiing topics to get a better general idea.

 

3)  I'm not just allowed to waltz into the patrol shack... those places say "Authorized personnel only"

 

4) For the record, I only saw one.... yes ONE patroller anywhere in sight at winter park, and he was skiing backwards on twin-tips at 3:30 on a beginner hill... I saw him from a lift. 

 

post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

 

Like a couple weeks ago I was at Winter Park and I never saw a single patroller hiking up to the Vasquez cirque and "patrolling" it.  (nor did I see very many patroller at all anywhere, but that is another issue).  When the patrol sweeps in the PM, do they "sweep" such areas??

 


Why don't you ask Winter Park Ski Patrol directly?

 

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=32599234471

 

post #87 of 89
Thread Starter 

^^^That's a group; not fan page.  Thus outsiders prohibited.

 

Are you a WP ski patroller?

post #88 of 89

I am a pretty experienced & dedicated skier both in & out of bounds, but there are places around the planet that I wouldn't consider skiing without spending at least some time with a local professional & have always had a better time because of it.  It is all about maximizing your ski time.

 

Pow 1.jpg

 

Thanks,

JF


Edited by 4ster - 4/14/11 at 6:37am
post #89 of 89

To answer the original question--at Squaw Valley all in bounds areas are swept, including areas like Granite Peak (up to 30 minute climb) and Smoothy--far, far boundary area open for a short time in the morning some spring days.   (Squaw has a closed boundary.) All inbounds areas are controlled, but post control avalanches, including fatal avalanches, occur. Inbounds beeping is recommended on powder days--patrol sometimes checks for beacons at the top of KT 22, although you are not required to have a beacon, just advised to.  You may or may not see a patroller in a given area--like most Western ski areas Squaw is too large for patrol to actually cover during the day, although patrol will be posted on the Mountain Run to slow people down. Patrollers tend to either stay in the shack or ski for fun between responses.  If you are injured in an off piste, in bounds area patrol may or may not find you--there is no way during sweep to check every nook and cranny.

 

I have never had a problem identifying the ski area boundary at any Lake Tahoe resort in good visibility. In whiteouts I have had a lot of trouble locating the boundary in spots I have skied hundreds of times.   Alpine Meadows, which has a lot of hike to terrain--hiking along exposed ridges--often closes large areas when visibility is poor.

 

A skier relatively new to an area should not expect to be able to completely navigate a large western resort right off the bat. It can take years to learn a mountain.  It doesn't hurt to ask people, but most folks will be reluctant to direct you someplace if they don't know how well you ski--they're not being nasty, they're trying not to hurt you.

 

They call them sucker tracks for a reason.  The person who made them may be a) a world champion freeskier or b) even more lost than you.

 

If you're uncomfortable skiing big resorts in the Western USA don't go to the Alps, where terrain that looks just like controlled American terrain is uncontrolled, with significant avalanche risk even in good weather,  where hazards include hidden crevasses and serac fall, and where the boundary between "in bounds" and "out of bounds" often does not really exist.    But the food is a whole lot better.  

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