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post #31 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexzn 
Ultimately trolls are there to get heard, so if ignore them, they go away
This is true for regular Trolls but doesn't work with this particular group. Their aims are both marketing and missionary in nature. Sales people don't stop advertising even if we ignore them. Missionaries on the other hand tend to get louder and more hostile the more they are ignored, even more so if contradicted.

The Hen House can't double as a Kennel for the Hunting Hounds. Egg production drops and the Hens disappear.

.ma
post #32 of 44


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexzn 

Ultimately trolls are there to get heard, so if ignore them, they go away


This is true for regular Trolls but doesn't work with this particular group. Their aims are both marketing and missionary in nature. Sales people don't stop advertising even if we ignore them. Missionaries on the other hand tend to get louder and more hostile the more they are ignored, even more so if contradicted.

The Hen House can't double as a Kennel for the Hunting Hounds. Egg production drops and the Hens disappear.

.ma


michaelA,

 

That's brave of you bringing religion back into the thread ... especially when endorsing a policy of apartheid.

post #33 of 44

My idea in having two instructional forums was to make sure that those posters who want the "protection" of the fully moderated "Ask a Ski Pro" forum would have that option.  There have been many times where I have responded to posts in the Boot Fitters forum via PM to the posters.  I don' t find that to be a major issue and people can ignore the PM if they want.  I think most people realize that they can always take their questions out into the general forum, but boot fitting issue posts aren't as frequent as what is typical for the instruction side of things.  So in this new case I wouldn't want to see the general forum "polluted" by instructional questions that someone might not want to post in an "Ask a Ski Pro" forum.

 

Hopefully over the Summer some kind of solution can be worked out.

post #34 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

michaelA,

 

That's brave of you bringing religion back into the thread ... especially when endorsing a policy of apartheid.

Nice try Sharpedges, but that's clearly a sham interpretation of what I wrote. A missionary is simply any person "who attempts to convert others to a specific way of life, set of ideas or course of action." Endless, unrelenting promotion of a highly limited set of preferential ideas about skiing by a tiny, highly vocal group of individuals qualifies quite nicely as being missionary in nature.

Personally, I'm perfectly open to new and contradictory ideas. I'm just not open to such ideas being continuously shoved in my face with unrelenting fervor and the demand that I accept them as being the only Right Way to Ski.

Such dogged and single-minded missionary zeal is always far more about generating artificial self-worth in the advocates than it is about skiing.


.ma
post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

On the other hand, we have also been asked to moderate the phase:

 

"people who on average will look good on blue groomers but who fall apart on anything more challenging."

 

Believe it or not, that has become code for insulting or discrediting those who edge their skis, and is used as a rationale to initiate a counter-attack when this is said.  th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

Yes!  I'm serious.  A member since 2000 takes this so seriously, he has signed off the forum when I said I didn't think I could moderate that.  That is the kind of silly crap we have fallen to.   When I heard this was an insult I was frankly dumbfounded.  Its kind of out of character for a moderator to say "grow a pair" but seriously.  What would you do?

 

Given the way that phrase and others similar to it have been used in an attempt to label a group in a pejorative fashion, it would seem to be in violation of both the first new guideline ("...without flaming, insulting, patronizing, or otherwise disrespecting the person...") and the second ("In general any labeling of individuals, skiing styles, or instruction as ... or any other acronym or euphemism is not allowed.").  I'm not really sure why there would be difficulty moderating that euphemism when the "pivot-skidder" euphemism is so thoroughly (and fairly) banned.
 

Further, it's simply inaccurate.  I first saw the "stylized blue groomer carvers" euphemism used in response to a video of skiing on a black groomer. ;)

post #36 of 44

Isn't a little flame broiling good for taste?

 

post #37 of 44
First, I don't know where this all started, but as a very frequent reader of the instruction and coaching forum I have no problem with a fully moderated "Ask the Ski Pro" forum but would hate to see an un-moderated technique discussion forum. The fully-moderated option doesn't allow for the rich give-and-take I see in the current model. It's a conundrum; I certainly understand the sensitivity of the pros, but hope we can find some ground that's not so extreme that we lose what I think is a pretty vibrant discussion.

OTOH, I don't know what volume of junk the moderators have to prune over there. I've had reason to appreciate what you all do, though.

Edited to add: Having read the guidelines more thoroughly, I guess I should try not to be such a smartass, no matter how well-deserved a little needling might be at the moment. I'll miss the sarcasm, though. Some here can be purty durned funny.
Edited by litterbug - 4/11/11 at 11:04pm
post #38 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

First, I don't know where this all started, but as a very frequent reader of the instruction and coaching forum I have no problem with a fully moderated "Ask the Ski Pro" forum but would hate to see an un-moderated technique discussion forum. The fully-moderated option doesn't allow for the rich give-and-take I see in the current model. It's a conundrum; I certainly understand the sensitivity of the pros, but hope we can find some ground that's not so extreme that we lose what I think is a pretty vibrant discussion.

OTOH, I don't know what volume of junk the moderators have to prune over there. I've had reason to appreciate what you all do, though.

Edited to add: Having read the guidelines more thoroughly, I guess I should try not to be such a smartass, no matter how well-deserved a little needling might be at the moment. I'll miss the sarcasm, though. Some here can be purty durned funny.

I don't think you will see any difference.  The guidelines were adopted as a tool, to increase moderator presence to head-off thread diversions when things get too personal. We have been doing this for about 3-weeks.  We still have a sense of humor, and in general recognize humor vs harassment.  Other than dealing with spam, you would be surprised how  transparent we are in moderating the site.  If a line is crossed, it is sometimes better for a moderator to comment on the problem rather than deleting the post.  There is very very little need to do this.  The announcement of the policy was sufficient to solve most of the issues that were a concern.  Sometimes a reminder is all we need.  Don't look for dramatic changes.  The guidelines simply reinforce existing values.
 

 

post #39 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

Good points.   Organizing Ask A Ski Pro is a fairly large undertaking and we can look at it over the summer.  The biggest challenge is deciding who should be invited to the panel.  In the case of the bootfitters, we have turned the job over to the bootfitters themselves.  Bud and CEM are moderators specifically to enable that.  Epicski does not decide who is an expert or should be on the panel, the bootfitters make that decision, and its a pretty exclusive club.  If we did this with Ask a Ski Pro, I'd be inclined to give it to someone like Bob Barnes and let him have full control over the panel, content and guidelines.  I don't know if he would be interested, but finding a strong leader for a forum like that is really the key to making it work.  Last time around, if you were an instructor and wanted on the panel, you pretty much got on.  Another problem was, all ESA coaches were automatically in.  Unfortunately most of them don't even post here, so that wasn't a workable criteria either.

 

How about limiting it to higher level PSIA certifications? Those guys also tend me to be more reasonable and less opinionated anyway (BWPA excluded of course ;-) 

 

You should join the advisory group.  We could put you to work.

Hmmm... PM me with more info.  
 

 

post #40 of 44

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

It would be so sad if you replaced Ski Instruction and Coaching with a much tighter Ask a Ski Pro.

The back-and-forth of conversations there is just fine as it is.  

 

 

post #41 of 44



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 

It would be so sad if you replaced Ski Instruction and Coaching with a much tighter Ask a Ski Pro.

The back-and-forth of conversations there is just fine as it is.  

 

 


I second the above comment.  There is more than one way to skin a cat, and certainly more than one way to describe what someone does and "feels" (or think they do and "feel") when skiing.  Loading a "Ski Pro" board with disciples of one discipline won't make this a leading edge forum.  In fact, the opposite will occur.

 

Friendly flaming doesn't bother me as a (mostly) voyeur of these posts.  I enjoy watching how the instructors make almost everything far more complicated than necessary (the race coaches are a bit more direct)*, so I can summarize what they are thinking and make it simple for my own skiing.

 

Think of this as a university, striving for a higher level of education than someone would receive from a public library.  If you have an university economics department, you can load the faculty with those who identify themselves as Neo-Keynesians", who will assuredly insist that every one else with a different thought is wrong.  Of course, they will have nothing but excuses when their assumptions prove wrong.  So why not add some monetarists and even a Marxist economist to add some insight to the thought process?  Maybe they will figure out something together that is of a "higher" level than the prevailing wisdom.

 

* They never figured out that teaching is easier when everything is first boiled down to a fundamental theorem.
 

 


Edited by quant2325 - 4/16/11 at 4:52pm
post #42 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post



 


I enjoy watching how the instructors make almost everything far more complicated than necessary (the race coaches are a bit more direct)*, so I can summarize what they are thinking and make it simple for my own skiing. . . . They never figured out that teaching is easier when everything is first boiled down to a fundamental theorem.
 

 


Glad that works for you, quant, and certainly many other learners of all stripes, but the way my mind works, a simplified theory is useless without some idea of how it works; thus the requirement in math that I provide a "proof" that supports my answer). My brain is like a little kid who's always asking "why? why? why?" Thus my preference for a dynamic conversation between different instructors and skiers, because eventually someone puts the words together in a way that gives me the 'aha' moment.

Of course, I could live with less pounding the table about how certain methods of teaching or ways of understanding a technique are useless, and how anyone who uses them is clearly a gaper.
post #43 of 44



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post



 


I enjoy watching how the instructors make almost everything far more complicated than necessary (the race coaches are a bit more direct)*, so I can summarize what they are thinking and make it simple for my own skiing. . . . They never figured out that teaching is easier when everything is first boiled down to a fundamental theorem.
 

 




Glad that works for you, quant, and certainly many other learners of all stripes, but the way my mind works, a simplified theory is useless without some idea of how it works; thus the requirement in math that I provide a "proof" that supports my answer). My brain is like a little kid who's always asking "why? why? why?" Thus my preference for a dynamic conversation between different instructors and skiers, because eventually someone puts the words together in a way that gives me the 'aha' moment.

Of course, I could live with less pounding the table about how certain methods of teaching or ways of understanding a technique are useless, and how anyone who uses them is clearly a gaper.



I actually agree with you!  Like Einstein said, ""Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."  For exampleone could argue the fundamental theorem of carving is what Wetherell said about putting the ski on edge and pressuring it correctly so it will take you where you want to go (or something like that).  Simple.  The fireworks is how you go about doing that.  Now there are different theories about all of this, and I agree that the proponents of each theory are wrong to call the other side(s)  gapers (and that is being polite considering a lot of what I read).  I am just arguing that the complicated stuff (the "why, why, why?") should always eventually go back to the fundamental theorem (whatever it is for carving, bumps, etc.) instead of getting caught up with ego, name calling, unnecessary complications, etc.  Regardless of my rambling, I do like the current format and hope it is not changed.

post #44 of 44

Quant2325, other than the spelling of his name (Witherell, also often misspelled Witherall) I'd say you encapsulated his teachings on carving with great simplicity. Thanks for that!

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