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Do footbeds work with custom liners?

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

If so, do you put the footbed in when the liner is being molded?  How will your heat-moldable (like mine) footbed not get destroyed doing that?

 

My HEAD race liners themselves are too tight and are causing sixth-toe pain.  Three shell punches didn't relieve that, so it can't be the shell.  It is the really tight liner.

 

I have heard here Intuition isn't as good, but is less expensive and widely available in the USA.  Then ZipFit is better, but hard to get.  The intuition "plug" model says its pre-molded and doesn't look like a race liner.  What's the point if it's pre-molded?

 

Then ZipFit seems like you need to heat for each use??? Hmmm the ease-of-use is prohibitive there.

 

 

Which liner will work in a 26 shell/98mm last boot?

post #2 of 26

all i know is that my intuitions were heated than the foot beds were inserted than they put it all in the boot and tighten the buckles and voila molded with foot beds and i assume the reason that the foot beds didn't get messed up is because the heat for the liners was a lower temperature than the temp. to mold the foot beds

post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 

Thanks for that... that is a start.  I am wondering what temp will melt the footbeds.  At the place in Winter Park, all the guy did to the custom footbed before he molded it to my feet was heat it in the microwave for a couple minutes.

 

It would be nice if the intuition website (and especially that 90s-era website for Zipfit) gave more specific info on liners and were layed out better.

 

Anybody know if you can put in an old crappy footbed when molding, then put in your custom?

post #4 of 26

With my zips, the old crappy footbed was just fine as only the shell is heated and the liner is heated passively by the hot shell.  The whole thing comes together very well.

post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 

Would you say for someone who doesn't have all the extra motivation/time to heat the liners each time you use the boots, can they just effectively work like regular liners (i.e. can you just always keep them in the boot and stick your feet in as normal, or does this not work)??

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshoto View Post

With my zips, the old crappy footbed was just fine as only the shell is heated and the liner is heated passively by the hot shell.  The whole thing comes together very well.



I should add that if the title of this thread seems ridiculous, I only asked it b/c I read on some descriptions of Inuition liners that "a footbed is not needed."  Given the importance of footbeds, this alarmed me.  Also, as I said, Intuition liners don't look to be very sturdy.  The zipfits do, however, though some ease-of-use questions arise as I have already said.  The price is getting up there... they really need to get a better website.  I can't figure out which one to pick for my boots.

 


Edited by Vitamin Ski - 4/5/11 at 4:06pm
post #6 of 26

I recently bought Intuition HD liners.My fitter did the work. Liners get heated, footbed goes inside, insert both into boot then mold to your foot.

 

Great results thus far and no appreciable "break in" after 7 days on snow. My fitter says Intuition liners don't change much with time.

 

I haven't tried ZipFits, but previously had the new (2011) Surefoot liners which didn't work well for me.

 

 

 

post #7 of 26

I have Intuitions. have a really wide foot and needed all the volume I could get in the boot. We took the old bed out that used to be part of the shell and put my old crappy footbeds in. Then Lionel (at Happy Tunes  in Carrabassett, Maine) heated the liners stuck em in, put a toe cap on my toes for toe space, stuck my foot in and clamped everything down. They have been great! The material in the liner is quite stiff, so with the right socks I get a great fit and they are warm!

post #8 of 26

I love my Intuition Power Wraps.  I have them in all of my ski boots now.  When I buy a new boot, it is likely that I will throw away the stock liner and imeadiatly replace it with an Intuition.  The molding process goes something like this.

 

Liner gets heated

Footbed is taped to foot

Toe Cap is put over toes

Stocking is put over whole mess

Boot shell is placed on board and clamped open

Liner is removed from oven and put on foot

Bootfitter stretches liner around foot and guides whole thing into shell

Shell is buckled moderately tightly

Skier with both boots on stands on toe lift board and drinks beer while liner cools

 

IMO... This is not something that can be done solo or at home.  Work with a fitter who knows whats up.

 

The heat from the liner will not affect your custom footbed.  

 

My primary ski boots have over 400 days on them.  The current Intuition has over 250 with little pack out.

 

Lots of people like ZipFits.  They are really good too, but the material doesn't really go all around the toes.  I had a major punch in my boots for a 6th toe and the Intuition molded perfectly around that.  The Zipfit can't be as warm because of the construction.  I used to have cold feet.  Intuitions and Hotronics have solved the problem.

post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post  I used to have cold feet.  Intuitions and Hotronics have solved the problem.


+1

 

I've had cold toes all my life. Sometimes hotronics failed me on the coldest days. Intuitions are ridiculously warm.....

post #10 of 26
Thread Starter 

To guys that have intuitions... did you buy them online and then take them to your shop to get fitted, or did your local shop sell them?

 

 

(i.e. if my local shop doesn't sell liners, or doesn't sell intuitions, would they know how to fit them)???

post #11 of 26

Bought mine at a local shop

post #12 of 26

I would only let a shop cook my liner that sells them and has done a bunch.  The shop I deal with, Jackson Hole Sports, will cook your liner for you for a charge if you bring it in.  They will cook your liner for free if you buy it from them.  You can get a pretty good deal from Promotive, but the savings may be negligible after paying for the cook.  You could try and do it yourself, there are techniques on the Internets for this.  I don't believe the results will be as good.

post #13 of 26

Hey Bored,

 

the Zips dont have to be heated each time but you do want to put them on warm.  I find that room temp is very good.  A little warmer is better.  I dont use the heated bag but I use a small electric blanket placed inside my bag that plugs into the car. This heats everything in the bag including the shell and slightly heats the liner.  this works very well.

But the liner is not directly heated everyday you wear them.  And even at the intitial fitting (or final fitting) the shell is heated and the liner is heated passively by the shell.

I use steam to heat the shell but I see that others use an oven.  I do not work with a bootfitter but I could see how that might be useful in certain situations.

 

Its not hard to do the process yourself.  But if you work with a  boot fitter make sure that they understand the process because most liners, custom and stock, are heated directly and the shell is never heated.

 

I have ahd quite a bit of correspondence with Sven who is teh inventor of the Zipfit line and he explains that the biggest mistake people make is that they dont heat the shell. Zipfit intends the shell to be heated.

 

Oh but I should add that my liners were old surefoot custom liners, in good shape, but they are just fine over many years..

 

 

 

post #14 of 26


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

I have heard here Intuition isn't as good, but is less expensive and widely available in the USA.  Then ZipFit is better, but hard to get.  The intuition "plug" model says its pre-molded and doesn't look like a race liner.  What's the point if it's pre-molded?

 

Anyone who says Intuition liners aren't good doesn't know what they're talking about.  I've been using Intuition liners exclusively for about 12 years and they are excellent.

 

When they say the liner is pre-molded, that doesn't mean you can simply put them in the boot and ski them.  It means they are molded to roughly conform with the boot shell, but they need to be heat molded to fit your feet.  In the old days they came flat as a pancake and would be heated in a small oven and then pulled over your foot like a sock before sliding them into the boot shell to cool down and form to your foot.  Now they come pre-shaped (pre-molded is their term) like a regular liner prior to heat molding.

 

I use the plug liners, and molded one pair with foot beds and two pair without.  I find I ski better without the foot beds because the liner will mold itself to the bottom of your feet while allowing your feet to flex slightly and naturally in the boot (while still being held firmly in place).  I find that with the footbed in place my feet are locked too rigidly into position and I lose the subtle feel for the terrain that I get without the footbed.  Basically you can do it either way and it comes down to personal preference.

 

Intuition will provide instructions on how to mold them if you can't find a dealer and order them direct, but I find their method doesn't work very well.  If you decide to get them I can provide you with detailed instructions on how to do them properly.

 

The other thing about Intuition is that their service is unmatched.  I had an issue with a pair of my liners and contacted them three years later.  They immediately couriered out a new pair, no questions asked, at no cost.  Amazing.
 

 

post #15 of 26



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

If so, do you put the footbed in when the liner is being molded?  How will your heat-moldable (like mine) footbed not get destroyed doing that?

 

My HEAD race liners themselves are too tight and are causing sixth-toe painThree shell punches didn't relieve that, so it can't be the shell.  It is the really tight liner.

 

 


If it is the liner, then why not just stretch the liner?  If the liner is too tight, take a hair dryer, heat it up, and use your fist to punch it as required.  Alternativley, heat it up, put it on your foot, (no shell) while watching TV or such and stretch it that way.  Might take a few nights, but will work.  Gauranteed.

 

 

Further 3 punches is nothing.  5 or 6 for that type of boot is no biggie.  The plastic has a memory and wants to come back to intial shape, so if they punch 3mm, it could come back to 0.7mm easy.

 

 


 



Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post


I should add that if the title of this thread seems ridiculous, I only asked it b/c I read on some descriptions of Inuition liners that "a footbed is not needed."  Given the importance of footbeds, this alarmed me.  Also, as I said, Intuition liners don't look to be very sturdy.  The zipfits do, however, though some ease-of-use questions arise as I have already said.  The price is getting up there... they really need to get a better website.  I can't figure out which one to pick for my boots.

 


Bode Miller doesnt use foot beds....neither do some of the Euros. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

To guys that have intuitions... did you buy them online and then take them to your shop to get fitted, or did your local shop sell them?

 

 

(i.e. if my local shop doesn't sell liners, or doesn't sell intuitions, would they know how to fit them)???

 

You know the answer.




 

 

post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 

Skidude, thanks for the heads up about the shell coming back.  I'll be aware of that in the future.

 

And also thanks for exracer on the intuition info.

 

None of this is going to take place prolly till next november, as my season is over.  But since I'm planning on getting custom liners, I may as well attempt to stretch out the one I have and see if that works  (though I cannot even put in words how tightly this liner hugs--no--SQUEEZES my foot).

 

I don't want to go on a ski boot rant, but it is so stupid that HEAD makes these tiny liners for their shells.  there's really no point for that, and it really pains people with wide high-volume feet like me.

 

anyway...

 

 

So is it fair to say that the custom footbed thing is more reserved for stock liners?  After spending 135 dollars on them and only getting 2.5 days on the footbeds at WP, it'd be nice to get a little more out of that investment.

 

 

EDIT: I retract my earlier statement about the "plug" model... I saw they have the "HD race" model, which looks like it would be a great race liner.  There is also "FX race."  Which would be better for a 98mm boot?

 

And yeah, i'll look at the instructions and do this myself, because I'm not going to drive to Ann Arbor or South Bend just for liners (this is all getting a little out of control).

post #17 of 26

Good liners and boots are narrow, because:

 

It is easy to make a boot wider, virtually impossible to make it narrower, and some of us, like me, have narrow feet.   I ski in a Head Raptor RD 150, 95mm last, and the boot has no punches, grinds, etc...perfect out of the box fit.  What you call a "tiny litte liner" would feel like a tent on my foot.

 

What is stupid is manufacturers that make wide liners and boots, that fit good in the store and day 1, then are too big and slop around for ever after that.

 

Like I said, stretching liners is easy....just wear them in front of the TV for a few nights...eventually they will stretch to a perfect glove fit.

 

Honestly, ditching a Head Race liner for an Intuition or similiar because you have a 6th toe issue seems bizarre.

 

Typically people go for custom liners because their current ones are too big, not too small.  I have never heard of anyone saying, these liners are too small, so I am going to get some bigger custom ones.....

 

 

Also, custom foot beds are custom foot beds.  They work in custom liners or regular, not limited to one or the other.  The only issue you might run into with certain foot beds is the liner may "flow" into the spaces under the bed (arch etc) and effectivley "block it" from moving as designed.  There are tricks to avoid this thou...but this is likely what happened to ex-racer.


Edited by Skidude72 - 4/5/11 at 11:39pm
post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 
Well the skiing is superb with my head liners but the bunion pain in sixth toe after four days out west was intense. Aleve didn't help this was bad. I'll try your hairdryer method next fall.
post #19 of 26

Yes they can be painful...but Intuition Liners etc, wont help 6th toe.

post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post

Yes they can be painful...but Intuition Liners etc, wont help 6th toe.


Sure they will, but they'll work even better if the shells are properly punched first.

 

Another trick is that you can force a greater impression into the liner during the molding process by taping something over the sixth toe area to mimic a large bunion before sliding your foot into the heated liner.  I find a balled up piece of masking tape works nicely.  I do the same thing on the middle knuckle of my second toe due to the fact my second toes are longer than my big toe (Morton's syndrome) and are bent into a hammer-toe position in the liner, causing the knuckles to rub the top of the liner uncomfortably. 

 

post #21 of 26


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

Thanks for that... that is a start.  I am wondering what temp will melt the footbeds.  At the place in Winter Park, all the guy did to the custom footbed before he molded it to my feet was heat it in the microwave for a couple minutes.


Anybody know if you can put in an old crappy footbed when molding, then put in your custom?


Not a good idea if the OCF puts your hard points  in a different 3D location, shapes your arch differently or deflects foot volume in a different direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

I should add that if the title of this thread seems ridiculous, I only asked it b/c I read on some descriptions of Inuition liners that "a footbed is not needed."  Given the importance of footbeds, this alarmed me.  Also, as I said, Intuition liners don't look to be very sturdy. 

The Intuitions /can/ mold up to fill arch volume, creating a "soft" pseudo-footbed that's only a little bit softer than some of the SOLE products frex.  

I think, however, that most of the skiers who find this route acceptable either have very rigid feet (maybe to the point of getting cramps in the arch with stiffer footbeds) or will have to do a remold  of the liner every ~15 skiing days because they pack out, or both.

 

.. and looks can be deceiving.    The sturdiness of the Intuition is quite impressive -if- there is a good match between the foot and the shell in the first place.  

 

post #22 of 26

If repeated boot work does not solve a fit issue then MAYBE you've got the wrong boot for your foot.

I like Intuition liners. I have both the PowerWrap and the newer Luxury model. I do not think they will solve significant fit problems. Since the PowerWraps are stiff they may make problems worse.

I originally had the PowerWraps molded in the shop to fit another boot and when I moved them to a different boot I tried cooking them at home in my oven. I was not happy with the results. You need more help getting the hot liner in the shell and your foot set up with the sock and toe cap than most significant others are willing to fool with. I had read all the instructions and was eager to try it myself but I should have had the wife read the instructions and try to get her to become equally as eager to tackle the project. If I do it again I'll probably warm the shell in a big pot on the stove, put the liner in the shell to get it fitted to the shell and use the RICE method with hot rice in a sock warming the inside of the liner to allow my foot to fit the liner.

post #23 of 26
Thread Starter 
Well I need to try to make this shell work... It would be irresponsible for me to spend more money on boots, as I've been through two this year (don't do an epic assumption on this please...)

Anyway I'm on iPhone now but can later post pics of my feet. What is a good brand for high volume, high instep, low arch, wide, and slightly abducted feet? Unfortunately my local shop doesn't sell race boots so trying on is not an option.
post #24 of 26

I would really suggest ATomic RT CS 130-140 boots........ 98mm last, neoprene toe box.....

They fit me right out of the box, no mods required..... I have relatively wide feet, high instep, very tall arch.. They are perfect.. They might be about half size too big/same as my shoe size/  and I am still able to ski 5-6 runs with unbuckled/lower/ boots..... Love them.. Only one thing, they leak unbuckled or not... But this is a small price to pay.

post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post
Which liner will work in a 26 shell/98mm last boot?

My boot is a 25.5, 98mm last and I now have Intuition Luxury Low Volume liners.  I have a very high instep and a sixth toe bulge on my right foot.  I don't even use a footbed in them.  It took a couple of tries to get the fit just right but I can wear these babies all day without problems.  Teaching involves a lot of standing around which, to me, is the real test of how well a boot fits.  Intuition liners rock and their customer service is first rate.

 

When someone says you should get "XYZ" boot because it fits them, just remember that is completely meaningless information.  Everyone's foot is different and what fits one person may well not fit any of the next 10 people to come along. 
 

 

post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 

OK, I'll look into the the luxury low volume.  Does anybody besides squeaky wheel have any more to say about the HD race liners from intiution?

 

 

Anyway, mtcyclist I totally hear you on the "standing around."  90% of the pain and discomfort, and 95% of the numb toes comes after sitting around in the village or walking.  Ironically skiing is actually the most comfortable/most painless thing...  walking for more than like 50 feet is a killer...  and as I said if I sit is a certain kind of chair and take weight off the boots its only a matter of time before my toes go completely numb.

 

I could not imagine walking a bootpack in these.  they are stiff as bricks.

 

 

Is it fair to say I should stay off in-bounds hiking trails with race boots? (obviously as many of you know there's no convenient switch... you must choose your flex before going out via bolts in cuff)

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