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Fall Line turns - in chopped up heavy spring snow - Page 3

post #61 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 

 

 

 

 

pivot smearing is lame when its all you do, you clearly have never seen me ski.

 

 

 


 

 



Are you serious?

post #62 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Quick (true) story to illustrate my point above:

 

Earlier this season, on a day with a foot or so of fresh but heavy and windblown powder, I had a student who had signed up for a "powder lesson." As we rode up the first chairlift, she told me "I can't understand it, and I'm really frustrated. I have absolutely no trouble skiing and controlling my speed on groomed snow, but I cannot seem to get this powder. I really struggle in it."

 

"Let me guess," I replied, "it feels like your skis get 'stuck' in the powder, right?" 

 

"YES!" she exclaimed. "That's exactly it! Is there a cure for that?"

 

"Nope," I replied, shaking my head. "There's nothing you can do about that." The look on her face was priceless. I'd just told her--pretty much truthfully--that there was nothing she or I could do about her "problem," nothing I could do that would get her skis "unstuck" from the heavy powder.

 

"The only difference between you and me," I then explained, "is that I LIKE my skis to feel 'stuck.' 'Stuck' is the sensation of skis gliding the direction they're pointed, holding the line smoothly, carving and controlling my direction, rather than skidding and scrubbing off speed." She thought about that for a while.

 

"Then how do I control my speed?" she asked....

 

And you know the answer, the exploration of intent and purpose that ensued, in the quest for the true paradigm shift that would allow her to think--and ski--like an expert!

 

Best regards,

Bob


Or as Kant put it in his Critique of Pure Reason:

 

"The light dove, cleaving the air in her free flight, and feeling its resistance, might imagine that its flight would be easier still in empty space."

 

 

post #63 of 84

I had the privilege of skiing with Bob Barnes and one of things I told him I had difficulty with was skiing in chopped up snow.   He told me to follow him and do what he did, which to my surprise I was able to, and what I noticed, and what I had never done, was that he carved the crud, effectively slicing it all down to a surface that to his ski edges was nearly level.   I followed and for the first time was able to ski with confidence in such conditions.   Whereas previously I kept mostly a flat ski that was tossing me around all over the place and allowing me to go much faster than I was comfortable with in those conditions, causing me to then to stiffen up andslam on the brakes, which in such snow conditions, is downright dangerous.   I might be getting Bob's techniques wrong here, so forgive me if I didn't pick it all up exactly Bob, but this is what I walked away with and along with some 88mm waisted skis, have been a happier guy.


Edited by Richie-Rich - 4/7/11 at 8:50pm
post #64 of 84

Bob,

 

The conditions at Copper were great. We went up to Union Bowl today and it was mid winter conditions. Some how I managed to get another little piece of jewelry! Sorry I missed you.

post #65 of 84

I am wondering OP, do you tend to leave the snow surface at any point in your turn? do you throw snow evenly throughout your turn or just in the bottom half of the turn?

post #66 of 84
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

I am wondering OP, do you tend to leave the snow surface at any point in your turn? do you throw snow evenly throughout your turn or just in the bottom half of the turn?


I'm going out today.  I'm not planning on generating air with my turns, not intentionally-why do you ask?  

 

I'll be looping the bumps and lumps.  My plan is to watch the snow spray to see where it goes and then to move the spray around as I can.  If I'm focused on that, and stay focused on it (always an issue when skiing), I'll figure out what I'm capable of and what works for me.  I'd like to get my bump turns consistent enough to embed into autopilot.  

 

I'm also interested today in skiing narrow bumped-up passages where there's only one groove in the snow and seeing if I can do it.  Goat paths.  Must, must keep my eyes down the trail and focus on holding my speed to match what I am seeing ahead.  Looking ahead and trusting the closest turns to autopilot is a must.  Much to think about from this thread in embracing that task.  Choosing turn shape will not be an option in those situations; the turns will already determined by those who got there before me.  Friction comes to mind, rhythmically applied, with light weightless moments in between.  But maybe I'm wrong - will find out.

 

I'll also be messing around with long and medium turns in the warm and wet slop that may develop as the sun beats down.  Usually I love massive Super-G size turns in spring conditions.  My original post was about skiing in fresh snow falling on my head, 10" and gaining.  That isn't any longer the case where I'm going.  

post #67 of 84

Well because Bob is right. How can you put Bob's truism to the best use? If you tend to ride the tails of the ski or have pressure management deficincies that allow the ski to lose contact with the snow you will not be reaping the benefit of that friction. I'm sure you have seen skiers losing control as they skip across the top of terrain features, contrast that with the easy style you are trying to achieve. Those experts always strive to maintain contact with the snow. A beautiful example can be seen in the Sean Warman video, you can see the skiers actively reaching with the tips back to the snow after they are thrown airborne by a bump. Also how much more resistance does the shovel provide moving through the snow than the middle or tail of the ski? Quite a bit.

   Whatever the shape of your arc, if you do not have pressure on the ski in the top of the arc you are giving up part of your opportunity for speed control.

   I've been teaching a progression of which the orgin was unknown to me. My trainer informed me yesterday that it originated with the Chamonix guides and that there is a segment where it is discussed in "The Edge of Never" I haven't seen it yet but, I'm going to check it out too.

post #68 of 84

pdxammo-Wasn't that you on the front of the PSIA newsletter recently?

post #69 of 84

Now that it is mentioned, I often  "bury the shovels" to scrub speed in soft bumps and crud.

 

So much more elegant (read invisivble) than skids or smears ;-)

 

So yes, there is a way to slow progress without changing the size of the turn.

 

But your shins will tell you about it later ;-)

 

K.R.

 

Cal

post #70 of 84
Thread Starter 


 

Originally Posted by pdxammo View Post

   I've been teaching a progression of which the orgin was unknown to me. My trainer informed me yesterday that it originated with the Chamonix guides and that there is a segment where it is discussed in "The Edge of Never" I haven't seen it yet but, I'm going to check it out too.

pdx,

What is this progression that you've been teaching?

 

 

post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




I agree nail. I dont know what it is showing but the turns are good and smooth but lots of pivot, no dynamics, large up un weights, and LOT of upper body rotation. They are solid turns but lack any thing resembling fun. Coaches of that level on good snow should be frolicking and not just skiing.

 



So,

I'm not sure how this video made it in here, it was posted somewhere 3 or 4 years ago.

but

that boring, slow hanging skiing, with "nothing resembling fun" is me, thanks Nail and BWPA.

this snow, was breakable, crusty, over bumps on the W. face of KT 22 as well, so while not tough, steeper then most places you see in these videos. And, I was having fun as well.

 

No, I didn't put it in there, the guy who did, RBC, who I don't know, references, 2:01, which is when Eski is skiing the classic chute doing a 'short swing turn", which is more similar to Bergers super sweet short swing turns. I believe that is why he posted it.

 

no, my turns don't resemble bergers, and while I can make what I call a short swing "impact" turn, I choose the slow, smooth, round turn to "frolick". And, Berger turns are frickin' awsome, wish i could make any turn as well as he does.

many of us that learned to ski as adults are not fans of the impact/rebound, excitement,and prefer to slow it down, round it out, and enjoy the view.

 

beside the negative, somewhat judgemental impressions, both BWPA and Nails assesement of my skiing in this clip is fine.

 

and yes,

I am a level 3 instructor, and I ski OK.

 

Cheers,

Holiday

 


Edited by Holiday - 4/8/11 at 5:33pm
post #72 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday View Post





So,

I'm not sure how this video made it in here, it was posted somewhere 3 or 4 years ago.

but

that boring, slow hanging skiing, with "nothing resembling fun" is me, thanks Nail and BWPA.

this snow, was breakable, crusty, over bumps on the W. face of KT 22 as well, so while not tough, steeper then most places you see in these videos. And, I was having fun as well.

 

No, I didn't put it in there, the guy who did, RBC, who I don't know, references, 2:01, which is when Eski is skiing the classic chute doing a 'short swing turn", which is more similar to Bergers super sweet short swing turns. I believe that is why he posted it.

 

no, my turns don't resemble bergers, and while I can make what I call a short swing "impact" turn, I choose the slow, smooth, round turn to "frolick". And, Berger turns are frickin' awsome, wish i could make any turn as well as he does.

many of us that learned to ski as adults are not fans of the impact/rebound, excitement,and prefer to slow it down, round it out, and enjoy the view.

 

beside the negative, somewhat judgemental impressions, both BWPA and Nails assesement of my skiing in this clip is fine.

 

and yes,

I am a level 3 instructor, and I ski OK.

 

Cheers,

Holiday

 


I learned to ski as an adult. Dynamic skiing doesnt have to have impact but yeah load a ski up and it will rebound, controlling that rebound is a fun thing though.

 

post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


I learned to ski as an adult. Dynamic skiing doesnt have to have impact but yeah load a ski up and it will rebound, controlling that rebound is a fun thing though.

 


You will never be an adult. I mean that in only the best way possible. I don't think you feel everything that others who learned or are learning as an adult do though.

post #74 of 84



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


I learned to ski as an adult. Dynamic skiing doesnt have to have impact but yeah load a ski up and it will rebound, controlling that rebound is a fun thing though.

 



it's a personality thing... you cannot say what is fun for someone else, just yourself. I don't have any issue w/ your assesement, maybe just your judgement of my choices. even your response here is a bit insulting. I know dynamic skiing, ski w/ lots of world class skiers, like Eski, and many others, and have been through phases where I liked impact and rebound ,(when my back was open to it.) You can be correct, and not negative and insulting of others, it's a good teaching skill (and life skill).

 

Cheers,

Holiday

 

 

post #75 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post


 


I learned to ski as an adult. Dynamic skiing doesnt have to have impact but yeah load a ski up and it will rebound, controlling that rebound is a fun thing though.

 

 

Dude, you're killing me!  Those turns were smooth on steep terrain with very little bobbles.  After seeing your low angle "off-piste" video I think I would be scared to watch you drop that line.   Holiday said you were right on with your MA, but that is only because he is humble and you have no clue.  Normally I would say "sorry" at this point, but your unending arrogance is prohibiting that currently. 

 

post #76 of 84

Not that anyone gives a S&^% but my take on Holiday video was a solid ski foundation with the right tactics for the terrain. Definitely a pro with years of experience.

post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

pdxammo-Wasn't that you on the front of the PSIA newsletter recently?


No, I was the photographer. Always the bridesmaid never the bride comes to mind, lol.

 

post #78 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post



 

Dude, you're killing me!  Those turns were smooth on steep terrain with very little bobbles.  After seeing your low angle "off-piste" video I think I would be scared to watch you drop that line.   Holiday said you were right on with your MA, but that is only because he is humble and you have no clue.  Normally I would say "sorry" at this point, but your unending arrogance is prohibiting that currently. 

 


 

low angle? the first shot is a 30-35 degree pitch. Really it is Upper national wouldnt qualify in anyones definition of low angle

 

I was only critizing the holiday video because of how it was put out there as 'awesome" skiing.  Sadly for wade he wasnt the one that put it out there. Holiday is very much following his skis and very much doing everything else I said in the first post.  I also said its good skiing but I feel what he doing is easier. It easy to ski stuff slowly even if it really steep. Slow kills dynamics.

 

BTW who are you? it alot easier to say stuff on here while being totally anonymous.

 

 

 

 

 

post #79 of 84

Didn't mean to derail this coversation about Berger's sweet short swing turn,

 

One last reply,

and it was from when this video was first posted, backin in 08, under title "Holiday Eski video." This quote was my response to Phil Pug who said I don't have any fun (OK, i'm boring, I got it, damn:)) (and I finally skied w/ Phil this year, "fun" days)

"over the years, I've described my idea of what i enjoy in skiing, moderate speed, low impact, flowing like syrup, flattening out challenging terrain and snow, skiing in concert w/ the mountain, not imposing my will on it... these are ideas and images that bring me back to the hill and make me smile. do you see some of those images in that picture of what is almost 2K vertical of around 37 to 38 degrees, with bumps and crust chunks? also, you don't know me, but i'm quite relaxed, i just don't target exciting, but flowing.
anyway I don't think i'll be trying to make my skiing look loose or free"

 

ONceOncOnce Once again, there is a personality component here. many of us ski for sensations, and people like different sensations. I don't think instruction should be about telling others what is fun, but about giving them the skills to create the experience and sensations that they want. And I don't think skiing should be about others' impressions, but about how it feels to enjoy that leisure time. We have to look a certain way to pass cert test as instructors, but other then that, we can create the experience we want with the tools we have.

 

The OP is looking for some of that too it sounds like. He likes a certain sensation,and it sounded like he's trying to get the pros to tell him how to get that sensation while keeping his speed under control. Seems a reasonable request.

 

So,

back to Berger, and world class short swing impact turns. Pardon the interuption.

I was just told someone posted my video in a current thread so thought I'd drop in.

 

Cheers,

Holiday


Edited by Holiday - 4/9/11 at 7:53am
post #80 of 84

Cheers, Holiday--and welcome back!

 

wink.gif

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #81 of 84



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Cheers, Holiday--and welcome back!

 

wink.gif

 

Best regards,

Bob



 

Thx Bob.

I've been enjoying some nice pics of you in one of my favorite bedside reading books, Ultimate Skiing. Love that book, think it should be required reading for Epic skiers.

 

Cheers,

Holiday

post #82 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post




 

low angle? the first shot is a 30-35 degree pitch. Really it is Upper national wouldnt qualify in anyones definition of low angle

 

I was only critizing the holiday video because of how it was put out there as 'awesome" skiing.  Sadly for wade he wasnt the one that put it out there. Holiday is very much following his skis and very much doing everything else I said in the first post.  I also said its good skiing but I feel what he doing is easier. It easy to ski stuff slowly even if it really steep. Slow kills dynamics.

 

BTW who are you? it alot easier to say stuff on here while being totally anonymous.

 

 

 

 

 


I'm not trying to hide behind the web, but I don't need to tell you who I am either.  As far as you're concerned, I'm the guy that's gonna call you out when you say stuff like, "you obviously have never seen me ski,".  Because guess what, I have.  Lastly, don't you teach adults?  You would think that you could relate to someone that skis this way and doesn't want to go faster or take more risks.  You don't need to take my criticism, but know that it is actually being done constructively.  You obviously love the sport. 

 

Example:  You sign up for an instructor clinic.  The group gets divided between to leaders, both great skiers.  One leader is very cocky and really likes his own skiing, the other is humble and seems very helpful.  Which group do you go in?

 

post #83 of 84

 

Quote:
Bushwacker wrote:
They are solid turns but lack any thing resembling fun.

 

Maybe a better choice of words would have replaced "lack of any thing resembling fun" with "They are solid turns but lack the dynamics of challenging the slope by carrying more speed while attempting to hold a tight fall line compared to the turns in Berger's video".

 

The skiing in Holiday's video, is what it is,  I think BWPA's and my MA match up pretty well with Holiday's stated intent. 

 

 

Quote:
Bushwacker wrote:
I also said its good skiing but I feel what he doing is easier. It easy to ski stuff slowly even if it really steep. Slow kills dynamics.

 

I agree, slow kills dynamics and this is directly related to the thread, fall line turns.  The OP wants to gain speed control as smoothly and effortlessly as possible while holding a tight fall line and carrying speed down a steep slope.  IMO, the turns needed are going to be very similar to to Berger's turns and is going to require "work" to dump speed/energy and fluidly control the maintained rebound energy.

 

I commented to focus on completely finishing the turns, where a lot of speed control can be gained.  Pdxammo commented that early shovel engagement/pressure is key and I agree.  Strong early shovel edge pressure can result in a very round turn and helps generate angulation so at the turn finish, the skis come back across the fall line at sharp angles to the fall line.  Speed is being dumped all the way through the bottom half of the turn when the shovel edges are firmly engaged and heavily loaded into the turn finish where pressure can be transferred and focused aft as the ski is traveling back across the fall line.  Let me try to explain this a little more.  Think of the ski passing across the fall line directly below the center of the skier's chest.  As soon as the tips pass the fall line, the pressure must be released and transferred to the edge that has not yet crossed the fall line and then  finally to the tail of the ski as it crosses the fall line which marks the finish of the turn.  This is fore/aft pressure movement and why completely finishing the turn is so important to gaining speed control.

 

post #84 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post


 


I'm not trying to hide behind the web, but I don't need to tell you who I am either.  As far as you're concerned, I'm the guy that's gonna call you out when you say stuff like, "you obviously have never seen me ski,".  Because guess what, I have.  Lastly, don't you teach adults?  You would think that you could relate to someone that skis this way and doesn't want to go faster or take more risks.  You don't need to take my criticism, but know that it is actually being done constructively.  You obviously love the sport. 

 

Example:  You sign up for an instructor clinic.  The group gets divided between to leaders, both great skiers.  One leader is very cocky and really likes his own skiing, the other is humble and seems very helpful.  Which group do you go in?

 



We arent talking about teaching clients here, we were talking about someone who is probably already a ripping skier. When teaching most adults students 99 percent fall into the catergory of never being anywhere near expert skiers. So BTW you ve seen me ski in person, or just on here?

 

The humble one, but I have never met a cocky instructor. The first post were discounting videos which didnt show anything close to what was being said was being done. I am not trying to be cocky I just have seen a couple videos posted up which had nothing to do with what was being explained.  If you think I am actually cocky teaching lessons, I have successfully fooled you.

 

 

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