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Do some people not desire/seek lessons? - Page 4

post #91 of 104

Back to the original question.

Do some people do not desire/seek lessons?

 

You bet. Some do some don't. After 25 years in the industry teaching, tuning and selling here is some insight. Reasons below.

 

Those who Desire lessons                                                                                                                            Those who Do not Desire lessons

 

Seeking self improvement                                                                                                                                 Arrogant

Comfort                                                                                                                                                             Expense

Safety                                                                                                                                                                Bad lesson in the past

Wanting to keep up with peers                                                                                                                          Peers mocking (especially teens)

Difficulty skiing some terrain                                                                                                                             No time, only ski once or twice a year

Gear- old school verse new school                                                                                                                   Feel they can learn from the Internet

Mental tune-up                                                                                                                                                  Just no interest

Conditions                                                                                                                                                          Do not take criticism well

Gain confidants                                                                                                                                                  Shyness

 

Please feel free to add to the list. I am sure there is much more............

I do know this though, whenever I talk skiing, being in the shop or off season conversation, people find out I teach skiing at all levels they Desire as much ski expertise as I can offer.

Probably cause its FREE!!!!! 

Below is a low quality cheesy Ski Tip Video. Hope it helps, Its Free too!!!!!!

Maybe another reason Some People Do Not Desire/Seek Lessons is because of Videos like the one above. LOL.roflmao.gif

post #92 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post

This is just a personal opinion, but one I believe that is held by many intermediate, self taught skiers. Lessons mess you up!

 

We are afraid that taking a lesson will actually regress our skiing technique. We can get down the mountain and know that our technique is far from perfect and could be improved, but worry that in an attempt to make us better skiers, we will loose the ability we have gained.

 

Great skiers have technique and natural ability, but trying to ski like a pro, without their ability, is not always the best fit. Too many instructors try to make you ski like they do, instead of getting the best out your skill sets with modified technique. The same thing happens in golf and causes a cycle of lessons and deteriorating results. It's like putting square pegs in round holes.

 

There are great instructors out there who understand this concept, but most just try to force the students into their concept of what they think is right. If I get down the hill safely with control and speed whilst having fun, does it matter that my technique is not textbook perfect.

 

In golf, one bad tip that gets in your head can ruin your game for months. I think a lot of people are afraid of their ski season being ruined by someone try to "improve" them because they think they could/should be better.

 

 

As an Instructor, I attend clinics all the time to improve not only my teaching , but also my skiing. Everytime my head instructor has me doing something different, it does mess me up for about a day while I try to learn the technique. But eventually new muscle memory kicks in and my skiing is improved.

 

If the instructor can pinpoint what you are doing wrong and gives good advice on how to correct it, and you persevere until you master it, you will become a better skier.

 

As for golf... I am a hopeless case, lessons have never helped me, but a few beers make me not care to much!

post #93 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip inderhol View Post

I find this an interesting discussion. And while I usually just read and never post, a few things caught my attention. For one the lessons in skiing and golf analogy. Jay, I see your point that not everyone should get/wants instruction, because they don't want to go backward,  but the biggest difference between golf and skiing is that golf is easy to quantify. There's an old saying "men and women lie but numbers don't". 85 is 85. You are either scoring better or you're not. But skiing is not that way. There are a lot of people who can hack their way down most any run, and even if they crash, will try again. Hell, it used to be me, and some days it still feels like that for me. And Wolf, as far as instruction goes, good instructors are only half the equation. As a student you have to be able to differentiate the information that is pertinent to you, with the stuff that isn't. I personally feel instruction is useful, but agree paralysis by over analysis has to be guarded against. Side note: Jay, I have read plenty of your posts on golf and have no doubt of your ghin. I am mostly self taught as well, although have read most of the teaching books. Does that count as instruction?

 

Very often it is more important to have a good student than a good teacher in order to improve.

 

The best ski instructor on the planet can not improve the skiing of a student that doesn't desire to improve. And great student may find great instruction from anywhere he finds it.

post #94 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplatt03443 View Post

 

Very often it is more important to have a good student than a good teacher in order to improve.

 

The best ski instructor on the planet can not improve the skiing of a student that doesn't desire to improve. And great student may find great instruction from anywhere he finds it.

Although it is easier for the instructor to have a good student. The best instructors find a way to get good results.

Example - The wife that is pushed into the sport but then discovers the beauty of the alpine. She started late in life and may never get off the beginner slope but hey she is skiing and having fun now because a good instructor taught her how to have fun.

The same goes for the kid that is forced to go into lessons. A good instructor (does not matter the level) will find away to make it fun and get results.

post #95 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirustler View Post

Most skiers spend 5-10 days a year on the mountain and are there to have fun.  With modern equipment and grooming it is very possible to get down the hill alive and with a small thrill to cherish, while possessing no technical skills.  The skiers here on Epic are pretty fanatical and may not see this.  Why would the average skier take lessons if he or she is already meeting his goals of 1. fun 2. thrill 3. survival and 4. socializing.  How many people are motivated to work so hard on a sport in which they just occasionally dabble?  Especially when they've already spent so much cash by the time they're considering a lesson.

 

I don't see it this way, but I think this is why many avoid lessons.

 

Totally agree that this is the position many skiers are in.

 

Another angle on this is that if you're going to internalize and permanently "own" changes that a lesson begins to make in your skiing, you have to burn those changes in. For most of us, it's really difficult to do that if you can't do it more or less right on the heels of the exposure to the new concepts and movement patterns. (This is presumably one reason why people report that "ski weeks" - which used to be famous in the 60s and 70s, and still are, I guess, at places like Taos - produce better improvement than scattershot lessons.) Think of the typical casual east coast skier who may take a lesson on December 28th, and then doesn't get on skis again until February 20th. How much is he really going to remember from that December lesson in late February? Some? Yes? Enough to really make a big immediate difference and make him feel that the expense and "lost ski time" was worth it? Maybe not.

 

hirustler's comment about who we are here on EpicSki is probably very relevant too. I think we're a bunch of analyst types to whom it's all about the thing itself - in this case, the actual skiing. I'll bet that for every sales and marketing person on this board there are four engineers. I had an epiphany about this divide between the folks like me who are all about the thing itself vs. the folks whose experience of an activity is essentially all about the people involved and the interaction with them. (The latter is why JayT talks above about the role of "friends.") Illustrative story: I have a long-time mountain biking friend who always stops and stands in the middle of the trail and will habitually lay her bike down right smack dab in the center of an intersection. This made me CRAZY for YEARS, until I finally realized that, like most of us, she was just treating people the way she wanted to be treated. What do I mean by that? I mean that - totally unlike me - it would literally never occur to her in a million years to be riding down the trail and see a group of people paused at an intersection and not stop to chat. In other words, for her, laying the bike in the trail is like a party invitation. It's common courtesy. TO HER, it says to other riders, "Hey, come join us. You're among friends and we want to meet you." TO ME, it says "I want to ruin the flow of your ride and make you interact against your will with precisely the species of creature you just left the office to escape." My point is that for lots and lots of people, skiing is not really about skiing the way many of us think of it; it's about people, strange as that concept is to me personally.

post #96 of 104

^^ Well, even a bunch of pros made a movie this year called "WE" - right?  Not that I would ever stop in the middle of a bike trail.

post #97 of 104

Then this would be Epic people , not Epic Ski.

 

Admit it we are a bunch of ski nerds.ski.gif

post #98 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post

I do write in a satirical style, but am serious about the concepts. I have a feeling you take skiing much more seriously than I do.

What? You "have a feeling" about it? I love internet talkers who think they can read another's mind! Tell me more about your "feelings about" my personality and likes/dislikes, please!

Projection is so easy when you don't know the other person -- all you have to do is make up a trait, assign it to him/her, and wait for him/her to love or hate that label. Wheee! So much fun!
post #99 of 104

cool! This thread's going to 11! 

post #100 of 104
Hopefully not on a scale of 11-121, though.
post #101 of 104

Can people achieve a high level of ability skiing without a formal lesson?

post #102 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tek Head View Post

After 25 years in the industry teaching, tuning and selling here is some insight. Reasons below.

 

Those who Desire lessons                                                                                                                            Those who Do not Desire lessons

 

Seeking self improvement                                                                                                                                 Arrogant

Comfort                                                                                                                                                             Expense

Safety                                                                                                                                                                Bad lesson in the past

Wanting to keep up with peers                                                                                                                          Peers mocking (especially teens)

Difficulty skiing some terrain                                                                                                                             No time, only ski once or twice a year

Gear- old school verse new school                                                                                                                   Feel they can learn from the Internet

Mental tune-up                                                                                                                                                  Just no interest

Conditions                                                                                                                                                          Do not take criticism well

Gain confidants                                                                                                                                                  Shyness

 

Please feel free to add to the list. I am sure there is much more............

I do know this though, whenever I talk skiing, being in the shop or off season conversation, people find out I teach skiing at all levels they Desire as much ski expertise as I can offer.

Probably cause its FREE!!!!! 

 

Hi Tek Head, 

 

Good list. One more item that comes to mind for the "no desire" list is "lack of confidence" or "self-doubt". This issue relates strongly to negative self-talk. 

 

You've made reference to the topic of the value of lessons. I find that people work harder and create changes in their skiing when they've paid money (versus free lessons). This observation applies across a lot of learning domains; for example, I drag my heels on learning new technologies relevant to my work -- except when I pay to take a course. Completion rates for Open University classes are way lower than for proper university classes. So while people are thrilled to hear advice for free from a qualified pro, it's another thing altogether to put the advice into practice. 

post #103 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by butryon View Post

Can people achieve a high level of ability skiing without a formal lesson?

Absolutely. Would most people get that level of ability safer and quicker with formal lessons? duel.gif

post #104 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledVeteran View Post


What? You "have a feeling" about it? I love internet talkers who think they can read another's mind! Tell me more about your "feelings about" my personality and likes/dislikes, please!
Projection is so easy when you don't know the other person -- all you have to do is make up a trait, assign it to him/her, and wait for him/her to love or hate that label. Wheee! So much fun!

 

 

I have a feeling you really are grizzled.

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