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Carving - Page 2

post #31 of 58
Quote:

Originally Posted by TomB View Post

 

I don't think there is any need to talk about femur rotation in pure carving! It happens naturally as you increase/decrese edge angle. It makes far more sense to talk about tipping and angulation, but the problem is that people are so deeply ingrained to the idea of rotation, that they need to talk about it even for pure carving.

 

There is a difference between what I tell a student and what I say to instructors when I am training them to observe and analyze effective and ineffective skiing.  Instructors need to understand the importance of rotation, so I need to talk about it.

I don't think anyone has an "ingrained idea of rotation..."  More often, people have a habit of rotation that they are completely unaware of.  It develops in most skiers, regardless of how they were originally taught, because that twist at turn initiation creates immediate pressure, and a sense of control. 
I've found that sometimes effective rotation happens naturally, but more often poor upper/lower body separation and lack of rotation (which are related, if not identical) prevents skiers from balancing accurately.  Like any other skiing skill, some people get it immediately, others need lots of coaching.

 

BK

post #32 of 58
Thread Starter 

TomB, the active ski twisting rotary you're talking about is a carve killer.  The passive variety I'm talking about is the skill package that allows a skier to employ various states of appropriate counter while carving.  It's an essential skill package that needs to be developed, so it needs to be talked about and focused on.  

 

If you can't counter passively, while disallowing twisting torque to be transmitted to the skis, you won't be able to carve cleanly and assume big edge angles.  Counter is a crucial ingredient in effective hip angulation.  That's one reason the rotary bubble in my diagram is so important.  

 

Another example of rotary when carving is knee angulation.  Sometimes it has to used, as a primary turning tool, or even a means of micro managing turn shape or balance.  Knee angulation absolutely demands passive rotation.  The knee does not flex sideways.  The femur has to be rotated, and that rotation cannot transmit twist to the ski.  

 

There's also the times when you want to enter a turn in a semi rotated (anticipated) state, delaying the creation of counter for later in the turn. Doing that, while not allowing the skis to pivot through the transition, is an upper tier passive rotary skill.  

 

Final note, as to why focusing on steering skills as a prerequisite to carving is important, and should not be demonized.  The default pivoting so many do to start their turns is not a result of focusing on active rotary too much, it's a byproduct of not focusing on it enough.  Learning good active rotary skills (steering) eliminates pivoting.  Default pivoting comes from having limited active rotary skills.  It's an only option thing.  Expanding one's active rotary skills gets people keenly in touch with there edging skills.  It allows them to take total command of their turn shape and skid angle, across the complete spectrum of possibilities, and actually leads them naturally into carving.  

post #33 of 58

Ghost, I have taken a few day-long clinics conducted by the ski school director (at MSLM) and I have to say that tipping was the only thing talked about for high angle carving. Sure they still tak about steering and guiding the skis for non-carved turns (I can live with that, even though I try to avoid it as much as I can), but for pure carving, he did not mention rotation at all. And yes, tipping is talked about all the time now. I think even PSIA is starting to see how critical is to think of tipping, when turning.

 

 

post #34 of 58

Rick,

 

I was only talking about femur rotation when carving (not gross twisting). Yes it happens, but it is a byproduct of tipping and I do believe that it confuses the issue when discussing pure carving. As for knee angulation, again, I try to not even think of it, since it is also a byproduct of tipping.

 

 

post #35 of 58



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

 

Final note, as to why focusing on steering skills as a prerequisite to carving is important, and should not be demonized.  The default pivoting so many do to start their turns is not a result of focusing on active rotary too much, it's a byproduct of not focusing on it enough.  Learning good active rotary skills (steering) eliminates pivoting.  Default pivoting comes from having limited active rotary skills.  It's an only option thing.  Expanding one's active rotary skills gets people keenly in touch with there edging skills.  It allows them to take total command of their turn shape and skid angle, across the complete spectrum of possibilities, and actually leads them naturally into carving.  


Too bad so many here don't want to learn from this excellent advice from a dedicated lifelong skipro. 


Edited by justanotherskipro - 4/3/11 at 5:53pm
post #36 of 58



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

TomB, the active ski twisting rotary you're talking about is a carve killer.  The passive variety I'm talking about is the skill package that allows a skier to employ various states of appropriate counter while carving.  It's an essential skill package that needs to be developed, so it needs to be talked about and focused on.  

 

If you can't counter passively, while disallowing twisting torque to be transmitted to the skis, you won't be able to carve cleanly and assume big edge angles.  Counter is a crucial ingredient in effective hip angulation.  That's one reason the rotary bubble in my diagram is so important.  

 

Another example of rotary when carving is knee angulation.  Sometimes it has to used, as a primary turning tool, or even a means of micro managing turn shape or balance.  Knee angulation absolutely demands passive rotation.  The knee does not flex sideways.  The femur has to be rotated, and that rotation cannot transmit twist to the ski.  

 

There's also the times when you want to enter a turn in a semi rotated (anticipated) state, delaying the creation of counter for later in the turn. Doing that, while not allowing the skis to pivot through the transition, is an upper tier passive rotary skill.  

 

Final note, as to why focusing on steering skills as a prerequisite to carving is important, and should not be demonized.  The default pivoting so many do to start their turns is not a result of focusing on active rotary too much, it's a byproduct of not focusing on it enough.  Learning good active rotary skills (steering) eliminates pivoting.  Default pivoting comes from having limited active rotary skills.  It's an only option thing.  Expanding one's active rotary skills gets people keenly in touch with there edging skills.  It allows them to take total command of their turn shape and skid angle, across the complete spectrum of possibilities, and actually leads them naturally into carving.  



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Ghost, I have taken a few day-long clinics conducted by the ski school director (at MSLM) and I have to say that tipping was the only thing talked about for high angle carving. Sure they still tak about steering and guiding the skis for non-carved turns (I can live with that, even though I try to avoid it as much as I can), but for pure carving, he did not mention rotation at all. And yes, tipping is talked about all the time now. I think even PSIA is starting to see how critical is to think of tipping, when turning.

 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Rick,

 

I was only talking about femur rotation when carving (not gross twisting). Yes it happens, but it is a byproduct of tipping and I do believe that it confuses the issue when discussing pure carving. As for knee angulation, again, I try to not even think of it, since it is also a byproduct of tipping.

 

 



The process is not as you describe Tom. The result (tipping) is an outcome and cannot be the cause of leg movements. If anything the opposite is closer to the truth. We move the body to change how the ski moves (after all it's an inanimate object). Said in the simplest terms "Tipping" is the result of the tibia and the cuff of the ski boot moving away from a position perpendicular to the snow. This typically means one of two intermediate outcomes occur. The superior end of the tibia gets displaced laterally, or the foot gets displaced laterally. If the first occurs the distal end of the femur is also displaced since it's attached to the tibia at the knee. In the other (knee angulation) the femur rotating is even more prevalent. In either case, during a ski turn the femur rotates in the hip joint and the active use of the muscles of the upper leg are responsible for that movement. It also is worth noting that the inversion / eversion of the foot inside a ski boot is limited to a few degrees of lateral movement and cannot produce enough ad/abduction of the leg (or knee) to be considered the primary, or even a signifigant "cause" of tipping. So while allowing the femur to "passively rotate" is a concept that has gained popularity, the reality is moving the knee and foot laterally must involve active engagement of the muscles of the upper leg. So just like so many other skiing terms, when examined closer it's not anatomically possible. Knee angulation being just one of many misunderstood terms.

An additional though that I want to share is that femur rotation doesn't alway produce a skidded or pivotted turn. From the accelerated perspective of the skier and the ski, turning the legs can be a pressure control movement that adds pressure to the tip (or tail) depending on how the legs are twisted. That doesn't mean when that move is exaggerated (overdone) that the skis won't pivot, they will. It's what happens below that threshhold that Rick mentioned in the post I quoted above.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 4/3/11 at 5:34pm
post #37 of 58

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post #38 of 58

Awesome posts JASP, thanks!

 

The only way I can now imagine pure lateral tipping happening is through banking excessively, thus taking pressure off the outside ski.  How one can bank physiologically is another question, I guess it could be initiated by gross upper body movements in the lateral plane.  Certainly not good skiing.

 

Rick and JASP - your insights into the mechanics of skiing are exceptional!

post #39 of 58

Absolutely agree with SkiMangoJazz!

Thanks guys it is a pleasure to read these posts!

 

 

post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

A gliding wedge may have been around for thousands of years, but it is now the predominant teaching method, and 50 or 60 years ago, the edge angles were much bigger, and the edge engagement much more emphasized, as was weighting that edge.  While it is true that you had to point the skis when you put them into a wedge, the main idea back then was if you got your ski onto its edge and put pressure on it it would make you go where it was pointed, a go-there way to turn.  Today that type of wedge (big angles large v) is mostly considered a "braking wedge", frowned upon, and discouraged by most instructors; in the modern gliding wedge skis are kept almost flat and the wedge is a shallow v and the emphasis is on pointing the skis in the direction you wish to go.

 


So what do you see as the benefits and impediments of such approach Ghost?

 

post #41 of 58

Ok,

 

This is a video of a a good friend (and fellow Patroller) and his Son-skiing on the last day of operations at our little ski hill.  I think both are good examples of real world carving though each is pretty different.  Andrew (the son) is 22, and skiing on Icelantic Shamans (110mm waist-but a ton of side cut), he gets pretty dynamic angles, not all that dissimilar to the racing photo rick posted to start this thread.  His dad, george, is in his mid 50's, and is skiing on real slalom skis, doesn't generate anywhere near the same angles, but is running his edges all the way through the turn and tips to turn.  I'd say both are on the spectrum of carving-tipped edges as the basis of turning with minimal skidding.  

 

I like the way these two skiers bookend the full spectrum of turns that can properly be called carving-and I think each uses a different amount of angulation, tipping, and rotation that correlates with desired turn speed and shape.  To my eye, it seems, counter to what I would have thought, that the younger skier, on the much fatter skis, getting much deeper angles uses far less rotary forces.  1. Do others see that and 2. i it's true, why is it so?

 

 

 

post #42 of 58
1. Yes I see it.
2. The son is using a different technique. He's carving (albeit using the inner ski a tad too much), but the father is not. He's just doing lazy but nice short turns.
post #43 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick 

Carving-Elements,Web.jpg

It's nice to see that you have left out Pressure (thank you!!), and have added Angulation and Flexion/Extension.  

 

Flexion and Extension take care of vertical movements, and lateral movements are taken care of by Angulation and Edging  I assume that Balance takes care of fore-aft movements.  Rotary addresses the important twisting/pivoting/radial/torque stuff.

 

But why do you leave out Rhythm?  That's the timing of what you're doing in those three planes of movement.  I'm genuinely curious.  

 

Rhythm counts, right?  Or is it so far into the future for most students who take lessons ... that "getting-into-the-flow" and shifting a student's focus to Rhythm just doesn't merit enough instructor focus to get included? 
 

 

post #44 of 58

Good Question LF!

Although I wonder if DIRT is a fundamental skill. The skills pools tend to be more about the movements themself, or said another way it's about how we move and how that influences what the skis are doing. DIRT is more about how much and how long we apply that movement. It also get pretty complex to identify five skills at every interval of a turn, but I agree it's vitally important to understand how the DIRT influences the turns.

post #45 of 58

Eager to read more about that.  Other than timing of pole touch and 'shorten the traverse' I have not seen much in terms of teaching rhythm...

post #46 of 58

Come to think about it that would be a great complimentary thread to this one on the fundamental movements.. I'll start it but by all means it would be fun to see how others view DIRT and Tactics are how that's influenced by our movement choices.

post #47 of 58



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

A gliding wedge may have been around for thousands of years, but it is now the predominant teaching method, and 50 or 60 years ago, the edge angles were much bigger, and the edge engagement much more emphasized, as was weighting that edge.  While it is true that you had to point the skis when you put them into a wedge, the main idea back then was if you got your ski onto its edge and put pressure on it it would make you go where it was pointed, a go-there way to turn.  Today that type of wedge (big angles large v) is mostly considered a "braking wedge", frowned upon, and discouraged by most instructors; in the modern gliding wedge skis are kept almost flat and the wedge is a shallow v and the emphasis is on pointing the skis in the direction you wish to go.

 


G, I think you might have to temper your adjectives, maybe with more specific regional references if this is what you see in your area. 

 

"Gliding wedge" is a useful and current development skill, but it doesn't predominate.  "Braking wedge" is another useful and current development skill, which still has a relevant context for application.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Ghost, I have taken a few day-long clinics conducted by the ski school director (at MSLM) and I have to say that tipping was the only thing talked about for high angle carving. Sure they still tak about steering and guiding the skis for non-carved turns (I can live with that, even though I try to avoid it as much as I can), but for pure carving, he did not mention rotation at all. And yes, tipping is talked about all the time now. I think even PSIA is starting to see how critical is to think of tipping, when turning.

 

 



He would not mention rotation, unless he saw it in your skiing.  Remember, in CSIA terms, "rotation" is when the upper body moves on the vertical axis more in the direction of the turn than the skis do, and rotation is generally not a good thing (half-pipe excluded).

 

Rick's "rotary skills" fit into what CSIA calls counter-rotation or separation.

 

post #48 of 58



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post

Ok,

 

This is a video of a a good friend (and fellow Patroller) and his Son-skiing on the last day of operations at our little ski hill.  I think both are good examples of real world carving though each is pretty different.  Andrew (the son) is 22, and skiing on Icelantic Shamans (110mm waist-but a ton of side cut), he gets pretty dynamic angles, not all that dissimilar to the racing photo rick posted to start this thread.  His dad, george, is in his mid 50's, and is skiing on real slalom skis, doesn't generate anywhere near the same angles, but is running his edges all the way through the turn and tips to turn.  I'd say both are on the spectrum of carving-tipped edges as the basis of turning with minimal skidding.  

 

I like the way these two skiers bookend the full spectrum of turns that can properly be called carving-and I think each uses a different amount of angulation, tipping, and rotation that correlates with desired turn speed and shape.  To my eye, it seems, counter to what I would have thought, that the younger skier, on the much fatter skis, getting much deeper angles uses far less rotary forces.  1. Do others see that and 2. i it's true, why is it so?

 

 

 

 


Following Rick's model, the patroller needs to add flexion/extension and angulation to his turns to turn up the carving performance.
 

 

post #49 of 58

Yup, assigning absolute values like good / bad needs to be avoided and replaced with appropriate / inappropriate. That gives us the wiggle room needed to discuss each situation individually. Especially when it comes to carved turns. I would offer that a closing radius carved turn would include a different skills blend than an opening radius carve turn. So where the skills blend of one would be appropriate, it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for the other. Intent dictating technique is what one of our more famous Epic Coaches call this idea. I use a derivative of that and say, how do you accomplish your objective?

 

So like MM said, A braking wedge has value and in many cases an over terrained intermediate skier will resort to a braking wedge. Contrast that with a racer who while seeking speed ends up in a converging ski stance, it's a wedge in a way but can we legitimately label that a braking or gliding wedge? Especially since the outside ski is carving, and the term wedge includes both skis skidding. It's nowhere near an accurate description of what's occurring since the objective isn't to do either a braking or gliding wedge. What about a braking wedge in tight trees? Both skis are skidding to scrub speed but I doubt anyone here would label that a bad idea, or tactic.

So how does all of this wedge stuff relate to carving? It uses the same fundamental skills, just in a different blend. Developing those skill sets in small steps leads us to the eventual level of skills needed to perform carved turns in all their manifestations.

post #50 of 58

JASP: The process is not as you describe Tom. The result (tipping) is an outcome and cannot be the cause of leg movements. If anything the opposite is closer to the truth. We move the body to change how the ski moves (after all it's an inanimate object). Said in the simplest terms "Tipping" is the result of the tibia and the cuff of the ski boot moving away from a position perpendicular to the snow. This typically means one of two intermediate outcomes occur. 

 

This just goes to show you how different your thinking is. Nobody is suggesting that the ski tipping causes femur rotation. I am suggesting that the femur rotation is a byproduct of ankle tipping. It is not something I have to think about. I have to think about tipping and I certainly will not use femur rotation to cause it. Even if I use "femur rotation" to control tipping, I hardly would classify this as a rotary skill!

post #51 of 58

TomB, Leg steering is leg steering and it's classified as a rotary skill. The fact that we can use it to create tipping, angulation, or even change pressure distribution along an engaged edge (steer a ski) doesn't mean we need to reclassify it, or re-name it. Rogan did an article a while back and talked about twisting the skis during a carved turn. So it's not like I'm inventing or redefining the term, or reclassifying it. Rick also spoke about this earlier in his comments about twisting being a carve killer when done excessively. Again I'm not who defined it as rotary. All three of us are using that widely accepted clasification. So please stop suggesting otherwise.  

 

post #52 of 58

JASP,

 

Sorry JASP, but your frustration with me is misplaced. OK, let's forget about rotary.

 

All I am suggesting is that it seems far more natural to think of tipping when controlling the carve rather than femur rotation. But if femur rotation is prefered by some, that is OK.

post #53 of 58

To the original post of "Why do we not see more....

 

By observation, and with the support of the video in this thread,  Carving like that just looks so pretentious.

 

Arms held like some swooping bird, huge body motions,.....best saved for the evening beer leagues.

 

Can you imagine the scene if all the female skiers took a fancy to such "Style"?  The mountain would be a different place.

 

Opinions may differ.

 

Swish, swish

post #54 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

To the original post of "Why do we not see more....

 

By observation, and with the support of the video in this thread,  Carving like that just looks so pretentious.

 

Arms held like some swooping bird, huge body motions,.....best saved for the evening beer leagues.

 

Can you imagine the scene if all the female skiers took a fancy to such "Style"?  The mountain would be a different place.

 

Opinions may differ.

 

Swish, swish

 

Gosh, how awful..

 

Ingrid Backstrom:
Ingrid-btm-lft.jpgIngrid-btm-rt.jpg

http://www.volkl.com/ski/teambackstrom.php
 

Arms apart again. At least they're hidden by the powder:

 

 

 

Things could get even worse....

 
 

 

post #55 of 58

Tog,  I see no connection between your post examples and this thread.

 

Sorry

 

C

post #56 of 58

Well it's not directly relevant to the thread title, more a response to your post.

I could spend hours finding "carving" photos of women with their arms out, but I see little difference.

The body position is very similar and they're carving powder, or air.

What would be the preferred style? If you're skiing fast and making turns with some force in them, you don't have your arms like a dinosaur.

 Really, I don't get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cgrandy View Post

 

By observation, and with the support of the video in this thread,  Carving like that just looks so pretentious.

 

Arms held like some swooping bird, huge body motions,.....best saved for the evening beer leagues.

 

Can you imagine the scene if all the female skiers took a fancy to such "Style"?  The mountain would be a different place.

 

post #57 of 58

The "style" that I and many find appealing can be defined by efficient, even frugal, upper body motion, with good separation.  This style is equally effective in all snow types and at just about any speed.  (competition  often takes exception with the conflicting requirement to be "at the edge" of balance)

 

I just offer this contrary view as to "Why we don't see more carving" .

 

We all like to feel our skis carve,  but there is a significant population who prefer other means to achieve the sensation.

 

Perhaps I have tumbled "hyper-carving" into a mix that was not intended.  The posted video example has the second skier more to the ideal.

 

My reference to the females was only to define a significant population.  (And one that I enjoy "watching their style" on the slopes. please don't all change to ski "like that guy"  ;-)

post #58 of 58

Ok, I get what you're talking about now. The video posted above, the young guy and his gorilla style.

Hehe, I actually agree with you. smile.gif

I would say though that even high edge angle carving need not look like that, and adjustment of rythm and turn shape can have a significant effect on how it looks.

One can carve without the full high edge angle carve too.

 

Take a look at the Swiss, French, but particularly the first Canadian skier here at 4:25 in this clip, Bear in mind the intention is to ski fast.

 

 

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