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What next when canting did not work? - LONG

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
My local boot fitter and I gave a lot of attention to my stance this winter and have come full circle, back to where we started. I am bowlegged. Both knees flex inwardly when my feet are facing straight forward so the knees move from slightly outside to well inside as I flex into a skiing position. The right knee moves inwardly about double the left and the right hip also has more rotational flexibility (left and right) than the left hip. My right ankle also rolls over a little inside my boot while my left is held firmly in place. We tried a number of different orthotics including several models of Superfeet and a Surefoot custom made version. No amount of arch support would eliminate my ankle moving to the inside. The two problems we worked on most were trying to get my knees to flex straight forward over my toes and get the right ski to run flat on the snow while avoiding over edging my right ski. It seemed that working to correct one issue made the other issue worse. I can ski comfortably on one ski on my left but cannot balance over my right ski and keep it running straight. It turns quickly to the inside. The Salomon Pro Model SC boots were originally canted 1.5 higher on the inside. I do not recall if the 1.5 refers to millimeters, degrees or some other measurement. Both cuffs were moved outward to match my legs. Both knees then flexed more toward my toes. This worked great for my left leg but I could not get my right ski to run flat. We tried wedges inside the boot counteracting the canting and then changed the cant by adding the height to the outside to get the ski to run flat. That allowed me to get the right ski flat on the snow but it made my tendency to over edge the right ski worse. We then moved the cuff from leaning out to match my lower leg to leaning in to help with the over edging problem. This got the ski flat on the snow but it was now farther out from the centerline of my body than the left ski. Now we’re back to 1.5 on the inside of both boots to get the knees moving in a straighter line and ignoring the right ski almost always running on edge. Some of this was done with credit cards and duct tape – not with permanent changes to the boot sole. Bottom line is I have not found a combination of internal and external adjustments that allows the right leg to let the ski run flat during straight line skiing and not over edge when turning. My boot fitter has tried everything he knows to try. I’ve read that sometimes bindings are mounted in a duck stance to get the knee tracing forward but seems like this would ruin a pair of skis if it did not work. I also read that some folks swear by adjustments inside and outside the boot while others work almost exclusively on the outside. My fitter has no experience with moving the bindings and works inside the boot primarily to improve comfort. Any suggestions on what we should try next?
post #2 of 19

Hi Steve,


Please sit on the floor with legs extended straight out----if the feet are held in a straight up position are your knees pointed straight up also?  If not try rolling your ankles inside or outside and see if you can get both your knees to aim straight up while your feet are straight up.  Humor me----- try it and get back to me.



Edited by miketsc - 3/29/11 at 5:50pm
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 

Feet pointing straight up = knees point inward. If both ankles are flexed inward the knees face up. The right  ankle will flexe more than the left but when both are fully flexed inward then both knees are pointing straight up.

post #4 of 19

Some will disagree here, but try this---


     Get your feet into the same position inside your boots as puts your knees straight up when your are sitting on the floor and  see if your tracking straightens out(you could use duct tape layered up under your foot beds).  

     Long term----You also may have to stretch the shell to allow your 1st met to get comfortable.   Also center your leg in the upper shell(or as close as possible) by moving the ankle bolts--- "canting" adjustments.  What you have going on is related to the amount of twist in your tibia's, just above the ankle.



Edited by miketsc - 3/30/11 at 7:03am
post #5 of 19

I know you mentioned some superfeet and a custom insole made by surefoot were used. I would recommend a custom insole with a good heel cup to hold the rear foot in place. We need to start with a good foundation for the foot. This will help align the foot/leg better in the boot. The goal is to get your skis flat on the snow regardless were the knees are pointing. We found working on the sole of the boot  much more effective than working inside boot to modify canting angles. Do you have a leg length discrepancy that you know of? You can also try adding some padding to the medial or inside side of the liner to help fill the voids (bowlegged) so your leg will have better contact with the upper cuff of boot.

post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 

Mike, I can get my knee tracking straight but the foot is then well up on its outside edge. If this were done with a raising the arch it would hurt like heck. I've actually had the arch support decreased slightly to relieve a little pressure on that part of my foot. Hard to know for sure and not near snow now but I'd think it will make the edging problem worse.

I do think you are right that there is some additional activity going on with my right leg that isn't present on my left side. An ortho Doc and a Chiropractor have said that both legs are "fairly normal" but I know the range of motion on both my right ankle and hip is greater both front to back and side to side.

Burg, I've tried both Intuition Power Wraps and padding on the inside of the liner to try to reduce the inward movement of my right ankle. Did not try it this year so maybe I'll try it again using some of my new-found insight and advice. It will probably be December before I see snow again so I will not be able to report back on the results till then.

How often can I cook my PowerWraps? Is 180 degrees hot enough? That's about the temp that water boils at my condo. I've got a pot that's big enough to do one full boot and liner at a time so I was thinking of heating up the whole thing like they recommend on some websites.

post #7 of 19



     I didn't say to just raise the inside arch---I meant the hole length of the foot.----

invert the foot from heel to ball---it won't hurt your arch.



post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 

OK I'm going to try both suggestions. Raising the whole length on the foot on the inside and bracing the inside of the foot to keep it from rolling over inside the boot. any thoughts on using a stiffer liner like my Intuition to help secure the foot inside the boot?

post #9 of 19



     Your problem is a tracking issue---try standing on your custom footbeds  and rolling your feet outward by 

supporting the length of your insole on the inside edge (rolling it out) until your knees track straight forward

(try using a 1/4 inch thick magazine with the insoles resting along the edges of the mag on their insides edges only).

Once you find the needed thickness install this under your feet inside your boots.  As i said before you may need to

modify the shell around your 1st met to be comfortable.

     I have been following your discussions on here about this issue  for some time---give my suggestions a try

and get back to me.



post #10 of 19

Agree with Miketsc here.  This sounds like one of the few situations where shimming full length under the footbed (rather than lifting the arch more) will offer good results?  


Does OP have a rigid or mobile midfoot?  A rigid, though flatter arch, does not respond well to an arch build up to correct pronation so full length posting can serve a valuable purpose here IMO.  Care should be taken not to overdue it but I have found great success with prudent application of this type of posting.  

post #11 of 19


Your condo would have to be at approx. 16,946 ft. to have the boiling point as low as 180 degrees. It seems your thermometer is off a bit.th_dunno-1[1].gif 


Originally Posted by steveturner View Post

 Is 180 degrees hot enough? That's about the temp that water boils at my condo.


post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 

Bud - Do not know about mobile midfoot. What would I do to tell me about mobility? I use aftermarket insoles in all my golf, athletic and tennis shoes but some insoles have too much arch support for comfort.


Ray - I was talking to a cook about boiled eggs and  was told the boiling point was about 180 at 8,000 feet. I did not check it. Now that you mention it I realize altitude does not cause that much of a temperature variance.

post #13 of 19

Difficult to say here Steve without your foot in front of me but sounds like you may have a more rigid arch from your descriptions?

post #14 of 19

Have we agreed that it sounds like these footbeds are not posted?


Hence, sloppy heel.

post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 

Foot-beds from Surefoot were squared up by a Vail boot fitter mentioned on this forum. I understand this is "Posted". They seem to be perfect to me.

To restate my problem, my legs are bowlegged when standing straight but the knees move quickly to the inside as I flex at the knee. The left leg seems to be corrected by conventional orthotics-adjustment-canting but it has so far been difficult to get the right leg to track a flat ski without over edging when I turn to the left. My local boot fitter was unable to address my right ankle collapsing(?) to the inside when I turn left that allows my right knee to move quickly to inside. This seems to me to be what's causing the difference in turns but my local fitter has no been able to resolve the problem.

post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 

Was not able to get back on the snow this season to try these suggestions. 

Would adding the shimming along the inside of my golf, tennis and street shoes help me become more comfortable with that position by December or does it only work inside a rigid ski boot?

post #17 of 19

These guys have all made good suggestions and I agree with everything Bud has said.   However, there is another way to do cuff alignment and I have been using it for years.  We use a Tekscan system to measure underboot pressure and then adjust the cuff until pressure is relatively equal medially/laterally.  I don't want to debate the correctness or incorrectness of the approach here.  I'll only say we've used it for nine years now and often with excellent results.


Steve Bagley in Snowbird also has the same system.



post #18 of 19
Thread Starter 

Bought some Chaco brand shoes last spring. Salesman warned me that the arch support was too aggressive for some people. I've notice walking in these shoes seem to align my feet so that the heel strikes squarely and the foot rolls over in a straight line front to back. Also very comfortable so they evidently fit my foot. I've tried a number of off-the-shelf insoles plus Surefoot but never found one that has the same fit as the Chaco. Anyone familiar with various insoles and the Chaco shoe that might want to suggest an off-the-shelf product with a fit similar to Chaco?

post #19 of 19

not sure of an of the shelf product with similar support but for what it is worth if you are getting the level of support you want from the shoe but not the footbed in your boots then it is time to bin whatever you have in the boot and find something better, either a well made superfeet full kork or an instaprint with a firm posting should do it if made properly, it is all about how it is made and communicating effectively with the boot fitter..... 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › What next when canting did not work? - LONG