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New Epicski Posting Guidelines - Let's Talk - Page 3  

post #61 of 70

I think there are a lot of members here who just gloss over the fine points of these debates on teaching methodology. It's way over my head, for example. Ban, no ban, it really doesn't affect my enjoyment of Epic either way.


Rudeness, however, is another matter, though I prefer a system in which rude posters are simply not encouraged.

post #62 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

Dan, knock it off.  No one will be caught unaware by the policy.  Every time it is broken, the person posting is aware how close to the line they are.  Sometimes they ask before posting, and sometimes the moderation team will simply place the post in moderation, and send a PM identifying the problem and asking for the post to be edited or re-posted. 

 

The problem is not 5+ years old.  It is a recurring problem that has existed since shortly after Epicski was founded, and has continued to the present day.  There is a small group of people out there that want to harm Epicski. They would like nothing more than to see this site, and the instruction forum in particular, wiped from the face of the net and will undermine the very things that make this community valuable and unique.  They openly and frequently say this.  The people bringing the PMTS conversation to Epicski usually have innocent motives, think they are being altruistic, and helping to expand the conversation, or just have questions. Those skiers are welcome here, but realize that their posts are affected by a message that their "system" is different.  It even has its own language, and that is part of the differentiation and marketing.   Nothing in our policy intends to shut out these skiers and students.

 

We are simply going to ask that posts not include that strongly identifiable vocabulary.  This isn't that difficult.  We're not out to ruin anybody's day. Just trying to keep the site from going down that same old tired road.  If you have questions, ask by PM. 

 

We have committed to review this section of the guidelines with the Advisory group.  I think that we have flogged this topic enough, and we have already been implementing this the past two weeks with very few problems, and a few PMs.

 

Edit to add This is what Epicski is about. Official 2011 "The Gathering Trip Report"   Keep it real!


 

Okay.  This sounds pretty reasonable, and I look forward to the entertainment of watching people try to find new words/phrases to describe their movements. :)

 

I guess I'll ask my question about a camp TR again via PM.  Thank you for this clarification.

post #63 of 70

 

 

Quote:
I look forward to the entertainment of watching people try to find new words/phrases to describe their movements. :)

I take it from your comment that you expect to be amused. Somehow I don't think you'll be laughing with us. 

 

I look forward to seeing some interpersonal communication instead of a series of monologues. How about some inquiry as to why a person thinks thus and so instead of immediately leaping to advocate a position arrived at prior to the conversation? 

post #64 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post


 

Okay.  This sounds pretty reasonable, and I look forward to the entertainment of watching people try to find new words/phrases to describe their movements. :)

 


There are plenty of old words and phrases already out there.

post #65 of 70



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post

 

 

I'm just unclear if the "issues" are 'PMTS discussions are too contentious' or 'HH threatens to sue us if people post his trademarked stuff on our forum'.  Contentiousness alone is, IMO, not necessarily a sufficient reason to ban a topic.  (Of course, I don't have to moderate the discussion.  rolleyes.gif)

 

If the area of concern is proprietary IP, maybe the guidelines should say something like: "discussion about specific technical aspects of unaffiliated ski instructing programs is okay, but avoid use of licensed or trademarked terminology from those programs and nontechnical discussion about the programs or individuals affiliated with them".

 

If what you want is "don't talk about PMTS; it causes too many headaches for the moderators", then that's basically what the guidelines say to me, except without naming PMTS explicitly.  But then that seems counter to the "all views are accorded access here" ideal for the instruction forum.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post

 

Regarding the owner of the progression in question, I haven't seen any posts that appear to be from him in the couple years I've been reading the forum.

 

 Does he have an account?  If he did and was advertising, I'd expect him to be subject to the same sponsorship rules as everybody else.  At the same time, if I got a letter from a web site I didn't use telling me I should pay to sponsor them and accept some policy of theirs that's got nothing to do with me, I'm pretty sure I'd have a few choice words for them.

 

All the posts related to PMTS I've read here seem to be written by enthusiastic amateurs.  I can totally understand telling folks to tone it down if they're proselytizing, but I'm not sure what the commercial policy has to do with things if the people posting don't have a financial incentive to do so.

 

Again, I know yours is a thankless job, and appreciate the time you're putting into making sure this is done right. :)



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Firstly, thanks for developing new guidelines. It looks to me like intent is to create an environment of mutual respect. A consequence of mutual respect is keeping an open mind to alternative perspectives.

 

 

That said, just to put things into perspective, if we look at the number of PMTS-related conflicts versus conflicts on other topics, PMTS conflicts are fairly few and far between.

 

I really think requesting mutual respect among participants is the big win for the forums - that's the real opportunity. The majority of folks here truly are respectful already, thank goodness, and granted, you may not be able to change the nature of the beast for the rest, but at least the guidelines set a positive founding tone for the forums. 

 

So good job, mod team. I'm looking forward to seeing how the new guidelines impact the forums.

Clearly you're relatively new here, and I don't say that to insult. You have no idea the problems over the last 10 years caused by "enthusiastic amateurs". Hey a lot of the arguing was fun for some and for awhile. But even in the begining it degenerated into physical threats, lawyers, and good people leaving.   Basically made the site almost unusable for a lot of people. We did not have the vast number of forums that we do now. 

It's been at times all the time, not few and far between. 

Your impression is the result of the last big effort to get a handle on it.

Many hours have been spent debating how to handle it. As for the "simple amateur enthusiast" moniker, it's not so simple and not so amateurish at all.

 

The "made long, well thought out posts with video" person was allowed to go on for years. The pattern when looked at was a clear agenda. He was brilliant at turning a mouse into a Trojan Horse. It was discussed at length with him multiple times. At some point you say enough when there's no response.

 

None of this really is a surprise if you go back to like 1998 or 9 and the Rsn site when HH first came on and displayed the attitude that has been played out ever since. Somewhere I have a 45 page printout of that discussion. Ott and Jonathan L I think were involved in that.
 

 Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

Use the post report function, and we will combine the threads and send a PM to the person posting multiple threads on the same subject.  Sorry, I don't read everything, and don't even know if the current helmet thread is out of control.  I don't read those anymore unless I have a report.  The moderation team is stretched a bit thin these days.  A lot of them decided to ski and several have dropped out.  We will probably be looking for new martyrs soon.

 

Helmet thread out of control? Nah, not yet. Fairly controlled. Now there's a thread type that's like a teenager heading up to the top of the mountain after his first 30min ever on skis.
 

 

 

post #66 of 70

I find it utterly baffling that people can become borderline violent simply while discussing what they believe are the best techniques to ski down a hill or best methods to teach others how to do so.  It's really a sad world when we have to ban words or ideologies to avoid situations where some people make complete jerks out of themselves.  If someone thinks anything regarding ski discussion is worth escalating that much then clearly they need to pick a different hobby/occupation because this animosity or egocentricism isn't what skiing is really about at all.

post #67 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoisvert View Post

 Using my earlier example, does that mean that if I went to a PMTS camp, I could post a review/TR here, and it wouldn't be deleted?  As I mentioned earlier, my goal here is to clarify what the rules mean in practice, since nolo's clarification and yours that the meaning and the text don't line up 100%.

 



You could try, but I think it would be pretty hard. "Dear EpicSki, I went to a Blue Level Banned-System Camp this weekend. He Who Shall Not Be Named met us A-Basin where we worked on the Phantom-Move, etc.." would not fly. If you really tried, I'm sure you could make it work, but why would you want to? There is already an entire forum dedicated to discussion of PMTS Camps where they would love to discuss it with you. What do you suppose would happen if somebody who just got back from ESA posted a glowing TR of it on the PMTS forum?

post #68 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

I find it utterly baffling that people can become borderline violent simply while discussing what they believe are the best techniques to ski down a hill or best methods to teach others how to do so.  It's really a sad world when we have to ban words or ideologies to avoid situations where some people make complete jerks out of themselves.  If someone thinks anything regarding ski discussion is worth escalating that much then clearly they need to pick a different hobby/occupation because this animosity or egocentricism isn't what skiing is really about at all.

How to explain the helmet threads?

The interesting thing is that on snow it's like a different world. Few of these things come up.

In the outside world it's worse. Which part should we look at?

 

 

post #69 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

  There's been plenty of "mosques" built, they just didn't work out so well.



That is just your opinion.  I read the technique forums through the episodes you refer to and found it preferable to where we are heading.  Let's tune it, not wreck it.

 

Some places Mosques have been well accepted:

 

Watch Little Mosque On The Prairie Online  http://watchlittlemosque.com/ 

 

 

post #70 of 70
Thread Starter 

Okay, now this thread is looking like what we are trying to get away from.   We will be talking more with the Advisory group and hopefully everyone will like the direction this goes.  The conversation and debate can continue, but this thread is done.  I have moved 7 posts that made a mosque/church analogy to the Advisory forum where they can have some further consideration by our member advisers.  It gets this way when we try to argue "beliefs" rather than issues, and we have turned that corner.

 

It appears with one exception, we have achieved a pretty good set of goals for site dialogue.  Give it a chance to see how it works.  There will not be universal agreement on this issue, and we are trying to make a change for the better.  I promise we will work closely with the participants in the Instruction forum, and any individuals that are affected by this to make it work with the minimum impact to technical discussions possible.  Thanks for the feedback.


Edited by Cirquerider - 4/6/11 at 8:59pm
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