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Apex ski boot - Page 4

post #91 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post
 

Working with good boot-fitters and a "guaranteed fit" program does not guarantee comfort or performance. Over the years I've purchased numerous boots at on-mountain ski shops, added custom insoles that cost over $100, paid other well regarded boot fitters to modify boots purchased from others and even tried buying boots on-line. Last year, after many years of mixed results, I decided to go "all in" with new, custom fit, boots and all the trimmings. After many trips to the boot-fitter, several different liners, booster straps, heaters etc. etc. my feet are still cold and the boots are still uncomfortable. I have no foot problems walking, jogging or biking but finding a comfortable ski boot has been difficult for me. If an Apex boot would solve the problem I'd be glad to pay the initial price because it would save me a lot of time and money in the long run. Maybe not for everyone, but for me it might be great. Just wish I could see some in a store and try them on with the help of a boot-fitter and followup support.

Yeah I think there is no way around the cold feet or comfortableness if you want a pair of high performance boots. My feet get cold too but not unbearable. But on the other day I was thinking that I will get cold butt if I sit on snow for too long in my skiing pants. With the boots so close to the snow all the time I don't think there is really anything to do to keep them warm through hard plastic shell and very thin and stiff liners. With a high level of performance in mind, the shell has to be stiff and close fitted with thin and stiff liners in order to get the immediate response you want. That basically throws comfort out of the window and step on it... And that's why I have doubt about the Apex boots in terms of performance. Not to bash on the product of course. I'd like a pair if the performance is up to the standard. I'm super into unconventional stuff lol

post #92 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post
- not for everyone, but for me it might be great. 

…i'd say. 

 

I recently saw them for the first time at my local Buckmans ski shop (Mid Atlantic East), and thought they were specifically designed to be a one quiver boot for dudes who wanna both ski and snowboard the park :\ 

post #93 of 283
Thread Starter 

Unless your a professional racer, I think the high performance models will fill the bill.  My feet have never been cold in them, and the factory support has been great.

post #94 of 283

I was surprised to see them at my local Buckman's.

 

I went there when they opened for the season to get my son's season boot rental and asked the boot fitter if they were planning on getting them in.  He said "No.  What you see is about what we're going to carry for the season."

 

Went back a few weeks later for their tent sale and decided to check out the store.  Lo and behold, there was an MC*2 on the shelf.

post #95 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr1952 View Post

Unless your a professional racer, I think the high performance models will fill the bill.  My feet have never been cold in them, and the factory support has been great.

Can you make some comparisons between the MC2 and other brand models? From the review that I read on American's best bootfitters those are more suitable for mid-low speed cruising than high energy skiing...
post #96 of 283
Thread Starter 

I read that review and one of the reviewers said they ripped!  I have found them to ski better than anything I have had in the past, my last pair of boots was a Nordiac/Surefoot performance boot, and I would say the MC 2 carbon would out ski them no problem. I bought mine a couple of years ago when they were still making the whole shell from carbon, but based on what I hear the new ones with partial carbon are as good. My setup is the recreational liner with the two boa high performance inner boot and carbon shell. I use the provided shims that came with my carbon shell to cant the cuffs since I am slightly bowlegged.

post #97 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaserPower View Post
 

Yeah I think there is no way around the cold feet or comfortableness if you want a pair of high performance boots. My feet get cold too but not unbearable. But on the other day I was thinking that I will get cold butt if I sit on snow for too long in my skiing pants. With the boots so close to the snow all the time I don't think there is really anything to do to keep them warm through hard plastic shell and very thin and stiff liners. With a high level of performance in mind, the shell has to be stiff and close fitted with thin and stiff liners in order to get the immediate response you want. That basically throws comfort out of the window and step on it... And that's why I have doubt about the Apex boots in terms of performance. Not to bash on the product of course. I'd like a pair if the performance is up to the standard. I'm super into unconventional stuff lol

 

That's a good way of looking at it.  Naturally, everyone's "performance standard" is different.

 

I think what will happen - hopefully - is that the brand will be successful enough to gradually expand and become accepted in at least one good boot shop in a lot of major resorts.  As more pairs get out there, word of mouth will spread and it will become more and more possible to demo a pair.

 

I think the ONLY way to judge the suitability of this boot to an individual's skiing is to actually ski them.  I have skied them three different times and I was impressed.  I wouldn't choose the model I was on (and I'm sorry but I don't know what model that was) if I were going to be carving high-speed turns on really hard snow all the time.  I thought they were a little bit softish for that kind of skiing.  The rep said he had stiffer options, though, so it might be that there is something that would work for that kind of skiing.

 

For run-of-the-mill recreational skiing, however, I thought they were totally accpetable.  I could have happily skied them all day in all the conditions I run into here at Jackson Hole.  Not only did they provide solid performance, but the fit, warmth, comfort, and ease of entry/exit were all first rate.

post #98 of 283

Here is a report on the boot that was posted last year in the Ask the Boot Guys forum.

 

skixtremedude

  •  Apex Ski Boots

Apex Ski boots can be skied at higher speeds. I tested for several days at Mt Hood this summer in varied conditions on different skis at different speeds. The bar on the back comes in different stiffness's as well. The inner boot wears like a warm walking snow boot and you can easily drive your car with it on. The outer skeleton is the key and is easy to put on. The boot can resist enough to maintain energy in a high speed ski turn. Expert skiers can compensated enough to be able to maintain that turn safely. That being said that is the boots Achilles heel, however the company does not make the claim that the boot is even designed for that. Over-all interesting and capable boot for the right individual that is looking for a combination of warmth, comfort without giving up over-all performance.The boot does have a higher price point then many others however.

 

post #99 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

 

That's a good way of looking at it.  Naturally, everyone's "performance standard" is different.

 

I think what will happen - hopefully - is that the brand will be successful enough to gradually expand and become accepted in at least one good boot shop in a lot of major resorts.  As more pairs get out there, word of mouth will spread and it will become more and more possible to demo a pair.

 

I think the ONLY way to judge the suitability of this boot to an individual's skiing is to actually ski them.  I have skied them three different times and I was impressed.  I wouldn't choose the model I was on (and I'm sorry but I don't know what model that was) if I were going to be carving high-speed turns on really hard snow all the time.  I thought they were a little bit softish for that kind of skiing.  The rep said he had stiffer options, though, so it might be that there is something that would work for that kind of skiing.

 

For run-of-the-mill recreational skiing, however, I thought they were totally accpetable.  I could have happily skied them all day in all the conditions I run into here at Jackson Hole.  Not only did they provide solid performance, but the fit, warmth, comfort, and ease of entry/exit were all first rate.

Bob,

 

Do you know if the liner and snow boot part can be punched/streached?  I tried some on last year and really liked them, but the area around my bunions was a problem.  If they could be punched like regular ski boots in that area I would be interested.

post #100 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrash View Post
 

Bob,

 

Do you know if the liner and snow boot part can be punched/streached?  I tried some on last year and really liked them, but the area around my bunions was a problem.  If they could be punched like regular ski boots in that area I would be interested.


I think there is a misnomer among skiers that snowboarders have it easier when it comes to choosing boots. That is far from the case though. All boots have a different last, stiffness , etc. And they can only be customized so much. You can't really punch and stretch them too much. And by the time they get broken in, they are already going downhill. IMO a decent pair of snowboard boots has about 60 days in them.

post #101 of 283
Thread Starter 

I have probably thirty days on mine and everything feels fine.  The liners that come with the high performance boot are much stiffer than the recreational boot.

post #102 of 283
Hello pbr,

What size Apex boots do you have and what is the boot sole length of your Apex? What size boots DID you use prior to getting the Apex? My concern about the boot is that it seems the BSL would be too long. To fit that liner into that shoe into that exo-skeleton would mean the exo-skeleton would have to be long and wide. Not to concerned about the width but more of the length. I only have a three ski quiver and two of them have adjustable bindings but my third - the power ski - will have to be re-drilled for this shoe, if ever.

But my interest in the Apex is for my wife and daughter. My wife is primarily a groomer skier and at most will only do a Western steep blue run. Unfortunately, she broke her ankle skiing last year in the Canyons and the surgeon put in a metal plate and six screws into her foot which altered the shape of her ankle and changed her flexibility. Because of this, she could barely put her foot back into her original Salomons. So the Apex might just be a solution due to the Boa system. Does the double BOA make a big difference versus the single BOA?

We would like to test this boot but the local authorized retailers don't carry them right now and I would not want to order them and just return them. I'm not that kind of a consumer.
post #103 of 283
Thread Starter 

I wear 27.0 and I think the double boa gives a lot more custom fit

post #104 of 283
Thanks. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the boot sole length for the size 27 is 331mm? It should be written in the side of the boot.
post #105 of 283
Hey all! OK, pbr1952, are you any way ,shape, form or fashion connected to APEX? I mean even just friends with someone, Rep, what ever. Because you talk about these boots like they are Manna from Heaven, and they are not! I dont remember you posting anything but positives about these boots and no matter what the product there is going to be some down side some where. And yes I own a pair of the MC 2 and they were almost a full months income for me. I am a 53 year old female with an incomplete spinal cord injury. I am PSIA certified, I walk with forearm crutches and ski and board hard with outriggers virtually all groomed black and some double blacks and am on the slopes 75 plus days a season. I bought these boots for the mobility the could offer me, and for that they ARE wonderful. But I am sad to say they are not as comfortable as my regular ski or board boots which often I choose to wear for there comfort over my MC 2s. They are a bit more comfortable boading than skiing. I read that you or someone saw Billy Kidd wearing the APex boots, but I wonder how often you would actually see him wearing them because he was not wearing them last season when I saw him at Steamboat. Don't get me wrong, I do like my MC 2s, but for just over $ 1000 I should be TOTALLY in Love with them. One short coming I didn't realize until after buying and skiing them is the liner of the soft boot. It is not uniformly padded like the linings of anything I own or have noticed. They have this fairly thin spandex type material connecting the top of the liner to the footbed starting from where the big toe starts rapping all the way around the toes and going about a 3rd of the way down the little toe side. So there is really not much there to pad or insulate your toes between the shell of the soft boots and nothing to pack out and form to your feet. I think that may be why they say on the web site "DON'T DOWN SIZE" which I only read the other day as I did not buy from there site. Also the lack of any padding in the toes is why my big toe hurts after a day of skiing from pushing your toes in to steer. All in all I think I would have been a little happier if I would have went a size up and either went with thick socks or maybe even tried a conventional padded liner. So, do I like my Apex, for the most part. Would I recommend them, NO.
Maybe in a couple more years they will improve this a couple other little things and I may reconsider. Right now if someone offered me half of what I paid for them I would probably jump on it. But you never know how any boot will feel until you have skied it ALL day, not just worn a while at the ski shop or to demo for a few runs which was my case. For those talking of bad feet, just my opinion, don't even consider unless you can demo a pair all day. Just remember, any new ski boot is going to feel and ski different and take a little getting use too. As far as bombing down a black, performance wise, no complaints. I feel stiff, secure and in full control skiing and boarding. These are just my opinions and my experiences. If your experiences were better I am happy for you. But if you have had any minor problems that you were able to fix or notice something that could be improved so this product can improve and evolve into a really great one, lets here them! Because of my disability and the fact I ski and board I really want them to become a Great product!
Sincerely, skigirl. MMM, really to old to be ski girl, I am really just an ol snow hag, LOL
Anyway, happy skiing everyone
post #106 of 283
Thread Starter 

I am in no way connected to Apex, I have worked in the marine industry for 35 years. If you look back at previous contributions to the thread you will see that I pointed out that the two boa system, with the basic liner worked better for me than the performance liner.  I have had none of the problems that you are having with skiing.  I have never tried to use them for boarding and never will, I am a skier. Have you talked to Apex about your problems?  Anytime I have had a question or problem Denny (president of the company) has called me back personally with advise or input, outstanding customer service!.  I not only saw Billy Kidd skiing them, but he has been endorsing them on the Apex website since day one! (Haven't checked recently to see if he still is)  The cost didn't bother me because I probably would have spent as much at Sure Foot.  Did you have custom orthotics made?  I had a pair made from Sure Foot and felt that made a big difference, Denny actually endorsed that idea.  For me the convenience of the walking boot was a big plus, I hate doing the locker thing or walking in conventional ski boots. I really like the infinite adjustment of the BOA system, flex and cant adjustments.  As far as downside there is none for me compared to conventional boots, though I haven't tried some of the new technology like the vacuum formed Fisher's.

I am sure if you put yours on Ebay you probably could get a better return than any conventional boot.

post #107 of 283
Aside from walking to/from the lift, they just don't make sense to me. In order to ski well, boots have to be cranked down, regardless of the design. The reason snowboard boots are so comfortable is not because of design, it's because they can be soft and a little loose and you can still ride well. It just doesn't work that way for skiing, where you need a tight stiff fit for good performance. If you want to trade precise skiing for comfort, just get an intermediate's bucket boot. Less hassle and expense. The Apex design may ski ok, but it just isn't going to ski as well as a high performance boot.

If you want to spend the money so you can walk a little bit easier to/from the lift (which is what, 5-10 minutes of your day? suck it up) and sacrifice simplicity and performance for the rest of the day, well, have at it, I guess. You'd be better off spending the difference on a good boot fitter, IMO.
post #108 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski girl View Post

Hey all! OK, pbr1952, are you any way ,shape, form or fashion connected to APEX? I mean even just friends with someone, Rep, what ever. Because you talk about these boots like they are Manna from Heaven, and they are not! I dont remember you posting anything but positives about these boots and no matter what the product there is going to be some down side some where. And yes I own a pair of the MC 2 and they were almost a full months income for me. I am a 53 year old female with an incomplete spinal cord injury. I am PSIA certified, I walk with forearm crutches and ski and board hard with outriggers virtually all groomed black and some double blacks and am on the slopes 75 plus days a season. I bought these boots for the mobility the could offer me, and for that they ARE wonderful. But I am sad to say they are not as comfortable as my regular ski or board boots which often I choose to wear for there comfort over my MC 2s. They are a bit more comfortable boading than skiing. I read that you or someone saw Billy Kidd wearing the APex boots, but I wonder how often you would actually see him wearing them because he was not wearing them last season when I saw him at Steamboat. Don't get me wrong, I do like my MC 2s, but for just over $ 1000 I should be TOTALLY in Love with them. One short coming I didn't realize until after buying and skiing them is the liner of the soft boot. It is not uniformly padded like the linings of anything I own or have noticed. They have this fairly thin spandex type material connecting the top of the liner to the footbed starting from where the big toe starts rapping all the way around the toes and going about a 3rd of the way down the little toe side. So there is really not much there to pad or insulate your toes between the shell of the soft boots and nothing to pack out and form to your feet. I think that may be why they say on the web site "DON'T DOWN SIZE" which I only read the other day as I did not buy from there site. Also the lack of any padding in the toes is why my big toe hurts after a day of skiing from pushing your toes in to steer. All in all I think I would have been a little happier if I would have went a size up and either went with thick socks or maybe even tried a conventional padded liner. So, do I like my Apex, for the most part. Would I recommend them, NO.
Maybe in a couple more years they will improve this a couple other little things and I may reconsider. Right now if someone offered me half of what I paid for them I would probably jump on it. But you never know how any boot will feel until you have skied it ALL day, not just worn a while at the ski shop or to demo for a few runs which was my case. For those talking of bad feet, just my opinion, don't even consider unless you can demo a pair all day. Just remember, any new ski boot is going to feel and ski different and take a little getting use too. As far as bombing down a black, performance wise, no complaints. I feel stiff, secure and in full control skiing and boarding. These are just my opinions and my experiences. If your experiences were better I am happy for you. But if you have had any minor problems that you were able to fix or notice something that could be improved so this product can improve and evolve into a really great one, lets here them! Because of my disability and the fact I ski and board I really want them to become a Great product!
Sincerely, skigirl. MMM, really to old to be ski girl, I am really just an ol snow hag, LOL
Anyway, happy skiing everyone

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr1952 View Post
 

I am in no way connected to Apex, I have worked in the marine industry for 35 years. If you look back at previous contributions to the thread you will see that I pointed out that the two boa system, with the basic liner worked better for me than the performance liner.  I have had none of the problems that you are having with skiing.  I have never tried to use them for boarding and never will, I am a skier. Have you talked to Apex about your problems?  Anytime I have had a question or problem Denny (president of the company) has called me back personally with advise or input, outstanding customer service!.  I not only saw Billy Kidd skiing them, but he has been endorsing them on the Apex website since day one! (Haven't checked recently to see if he still is)  The cost didn't bother me because I probably would have spent as much at Sure Foot.  Did you have custom orthotics made?  I had a pair made from Sure Foot and felt that made a big difference, Denny actually endorsed that idea.  For me the convenience of the walking boot was a big plus, I hate doing the locker thing or walking in conventional ski boots. I really like the infinite adjustment of the BOA system, flex and cant adjustments.  As far as downside there is none for me compared to conventional boots, though I haven't tried some of the new technology like the vacuum formed Fisher's.

I am sure if you put yours on Ebay you probably could get a better return than any conventional boot.

 

Funny. A one poster going after a 62 poster and both posting in monoparagraphs.

 

And pbr - c'mon - you think Billy REALLY skis in those things for free? Twice I skied with him at Steamboat, and twice (shockingly!) a confederate in the group just HAPPENED to ask about his boots. :rolleyes. Gee, what are the odds, right?

post #109 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lindahl View Post

Aside from walking to/from the lift, they just don't make sense to me. In order to ski well, boots have to be cranked down, regardless of the design. The reason snowboard boots are so comfortable is not because of design, it's because they can be soft and a little loose and you can still ride well. It just doesn't work that way for skiing, where you need a tight stiff fit for good performance. If you want to trade precise skiing for comfort, just get an intermediate's bucket boot. Less hassle and expense. The Apex design may ski ok, but it just isn't going to ski as well as a high performance boot.

If you want to spend the money so you can walk a little bit easier to/from the lift (which is what, 5-10 minutes of your day? suck it up) and sacrifice simplicity and performance for the rest of the day, well, have at it, I guess. You'd be better off spending the difference on a good boot fitter, IMO.

 

Have you skied with them yet?  If not then your opinion is total conjecture.  I have and they ski as well or better than any high performance boot I have had. Lot easier in and out and a lot more adjustable, I walk more than 5-10 minutes more like 30 minutes, and I come out of the shell when stopping for lunch or have to hike up an incline.  There are plenty of reviews by pro skiers that say these boots are as good as plug boots, (Real skiers, Americas best boot fitters etc)  You can crank these down, it's just better with the BOA system than four buckles

post #110 of 283
Hi pbr, the walking boot was my main reson for getting these boots. As I said I am disabled and walk like a lame duck with crutches off the slopes but when I am on the slopes I glide like a swan! I have called Apex with a few questions because my local reps answer is usually "I don't know". They have ALWAYS been super nice and helpful and Jed was right on helping me with a problem with a screw and cam for my top buckle.
I did not know there were different liners? There web site says nothing about basic or sport. But does say that expandable neoprene toe box and I think that is what I am talking about when I say they are so thin and no cushion in the toe? I have the double boa, not sure why anyone would want the single over the double? So you think my thin liner problem my just be that I have the performance instead of the basic? I will call Apex first thing Monday morning!
Also, I need to clairify that the reason I said I would sell these was so I could get a size bigger and try getting a thicker liner. My snowboard boots are 26 and fit great, but the Apex 26 were really big on me even with a thick sock so went with the 25 because the ski shop said is is easier to make a boot bigger than smaller. They are really comfortable out of the hard shell and if I can get the comfort issue when they are in the hard shell and ski resolved then I will gladly sing there praises!

One thing I would like them to add is a loop on the hard shell on the top back for something to easily grab and make a little easier to pull the hard shell on and off when sitting like the loop on the soft shell.

I'll be sure to let you know how things go.

Sincerely, ski girl
post #111 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofun3 View Post
 

 

 

 

Funny. A one poster going after a 62 poster and both posting in monoparagraphs.

 

And pbr - c'mon - you think Billy REALLY skis in those things for free? Twice I skied with him at Steamboat, and twice (shockingly!) a confederate in the group just HAPPENED to ask about his boots. :rolleyes. Gee, what are the odds, right?

 

The monoparagraph saves space, I have no problem reading it.  I didn't buy them because  Billy endorsed them, but he told me he liked them couple of years ago.

post #112 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski girl View Post

Hi pbr, the walking boot was my main reson for getting these boots. As I said I am disabled and walk like a lame duck with crutches off the slopes but when I am on the slopes I glide like a swan! I have called Apex with a few questions because my local reps answer is usually "I don't know". They have ALWAYS been super nice and helpful and Jed was right on helping me with a problem with a screw and cam for my top buckle.
I did not know there were different liners? There web site says nothing about basic or sport. But does say that expandable neoprene toe box and I think that is what I am talking about when I say they are so thin and no cushion in the toe? I have the double boa, not sure why anyone would want the single over the double? So you think my thin liner problem my just be that I have the performance instead of the basic? I will call Apex first thing Monday morning!
Also, I need to clairify that the reason I said I would sell these was so I could get a size bigger and try getting a thicker liner. My snowboard boots are 26 and fit great, but the Apex 26 were really big on me even with a thick sock so went with the 25 because the ski shop said is is easier to make a boot bigger than smaller. They are really comfortable out of the hard shell and if I can get the comfort issue when they are in the hard shell and ski resolved then I will gladly sing there praises!

One thing I would like them to add is a loop on the hard shell on the top back for something to easily grab and make a little easier to pull the hard shell on and off when sitting like the loop on the soft shell.

I'll be sure to let you know how things go.

Sincerely, ski girl

I have the all carbon exoskeleton which they don't make anymore, I first purchased the single boa boot, and found them too loose for my liking, I called Apex and they took them back as credit and sold me the two boa which came with a much stiffer liner, I found that liner too stiff and asked them if I could have the original liners back, they overnighted them to me so I was ready the next day on the slope. 

post #113 of 283
Thread Starter 

PS  as you, I found the dealers  completely clueless and useless, and I told Denny as much.

post #114 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr1952 View Post

Have you skied with them yet?  If not then your opinion is total conjecture.  I have and they ski as well or better than any high performance boot I have had. Lot easier in and out and a lot more adjustable, I walk more than 5-10 minutes more like 30 minutes, and I come out of the shell when stopping for lunch or have to hike up an incline.  There are plenty of reviews by pro skiers that say these boots are as good as plug boots, (Real skiers, Americas best boot fitters etc)  You can crank these down, it's just better with the BOA system than four buckles

Some of those reviewers don't exactly support that opinion, as do a few that I trust that have skied them (one friend suggested they're about a 100 flex).

Here's Peter Keeltys review:
Quote:
We skied the boot in January—on actual boilerplate—and were blown away. We had advance word that Chad Fleischer of U.S. Ski Team and NBC World Cup broadcast fame liked the Apex so much that he refused to return his test pair and is presumably skiing them now. That's a strong pre-test confidence builder . . .

What we found was excellence. This is the one of the most comfortable boots we have experienced, one of the warmest, one of the easiest to put on, perhaps the most convenient off-snow boot ever built and certainly one of the lightest skis boots since the days of Scott. We expected all of that.

The real surprise came on the snow.

Because of the rigidity of the carbon fiber exoskeleton and the tight connection from foot to inner boot to walking boot to exo-shell, this is among the most responsive boots we've skied, in a league with the plug boots upon which we generally report. The thing is lightening quick and provides massive but manageable power to the edges—all four edges. It can be skied in high edge angles and with softer edges agreeably. It is forgiving, but also capable of impressive rebound-performance and serious ice hold.

It is not especially stiff in forward flex. We'd guess it to be in the 90 - 100 range, but that scale is all but meaningless when applied to the Apex. In fact, the boot encourages skiing through the soles of the feet rather than by pressuring shins against a traditional tongue and upper shell. An easy adaptation for many skiers and, from a skill development point of view, not a bad thing.

And there's the problem. You can't drive the ski because of the softer forward flex (the same problem my friend had). This is fine when ripping around groomers (as in Peters review) with newschool style - using the lateral stiffness. However, without being able to drive the ski forward like in a high performance boot, you're going to have problems with crud and other variable snow conditions. You also wont be able to bend a stiffer ski into smaller radii by throwing your weight into the forebody, as the power will be lost with the softer forward flex. Also, according to my friend, the flex pattern isn't a nice progressive flex like an alpine boot (at least in the MC2), so you loose the absorption and smoothness, not so good for moguls, jumps or really rough snow at higher speeds.

What surprises me about the review is that Peter was talking about impressive rebound performance. You can't always get that with a soft forward flex. You need to transmit power into the bend of the ski to get rebound out. A softer ski requires less power to get rebound out of it, and thus, can be done with softer boots. For example, to get rebound out of my Head 103s, I need to be skiing really fast and really pushing power into the forebody. I need my Cochises. With a Bushwacker, I can get rebound out of it with my TLT5P boots, and I overpower it with my Cochises pretty easily. This leads me to think that Peter was using a softer ski where the power of a high performance boot is wasted and unnecessary. Wen I say softer/stiffer here, I mean longitudinally, not torsionally.

So, to sum up, it has good lateral stiffness, but poor forward stiffness, which means it isn't a high performance boot unless your movement and power is mostly lateral. Reminds me of the TLT5P. It skis consistent snow very well (groomers, smooth corn, untracked lower density powder), but put it in crud and variable snow (or catch lots of air) and you're going to struggle with maintaining fore/aft balance.

This should be no surprise, as the entire rigidity of the forward flex is engineered only with a single top buckle and a rear spine. There is no overlap or stiff tongue, just a snowboard boot. A plastic tongue and a third ankle buckle would likely help quite a bit.
Edited by Brian Lindahl - 12/29/13 at 10:57am
post #115 of 283
I am not trying to bash or go after anyone. But I do own them and am discussing problems I am having and hoping to resolve.!

When I am cinched and buckled in the hard shell it is just like being in regular ski boots. Stiffness and performance are not my issue.

Only 5 or 10 minutes, LOL, I wish. I am with pbr there. More like 30 on a fun day and at Bear Mt it is a bit of a trek to the bathrooms. I am also a volunteer adaptive instructor and on days I teach it is probably an hour or more.

Oh and it was 2 years ago I meet Billy at steamboat and that's is probably why he was not wearing them. Sorry about that!
post #116 of 283
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lindahl View Post


Some of those reviewers don't exactly support that opinion, as do a few that I trust that have skied them (one friend suggested they're about a 100 flex).

Here's Peter Keeltys review:
And there's the problem. You can't drive the ski because of the softer forward flex (the same problem my friend had). This is fine when ripping around groomers (as in Peters review) with newschool style - using the lateral stiffness. However, without being able to drive the ski forward like in a high performance boot, you're going to have problems with crud and other variable snow conditions. You also wont be able to bend a stiffer ski into smaller radii by throwing your weight into the forebody, as the power will be lost with the softer forward flex. Also, according to my friend, the flex pattern isn't a nice progressive flex like an alpine boot (at least in the MC2), so you loose the absorption and smoothness, not so good for moguls, jumps or really rough snow at higher speeds.

What surprises me about the review is that Peter was talking about impressive rebound performance. You can't always get that with a soft forward flex. You need to transmit power into the bend of the ski to get rebound out. A softer ski requires less power to get rebound out of it, and thus, can be done with softer boots. For example, to get rebound out of my Head 103s, I need to be skiing really fast and really pushing power into the forebody. I need my Cochises. With a Bushwacker, I can get rebound out of it with my TLT5P boots, and I overpower it with my Cochises pretty easily. This leads me to think that Peter was using a softer ski where the power of a high performance boot is wasted and unnecessary. Wen I say softer/stiffer here, I mean longitudinally, not torsionally.


That flex is adjustable, I am currently using the most flexible insert and find the flex to be fine for me. The boots come with three different composite inserts for adjustment, and the have a metal one if you really want it to be stiff. Which liner you use also affects that stiffness. I tried the performance liner with the most flexible insert and it was very stiff.  These boots are very adjustable compared to conventional boots.

post #117 of 283
Thread Starter 

PS. I am skiing Ski logik Urll's Chariots with these boots

post #118 of 283
Hey all, you can change out the grommets in the back for forward stiffness. I wonder which ones they had in for there demo? And if forward stiffness is the only issue, I wonder if just a simple thing like a booster strap would work. They use them for that on regular boots for that don't they? Just my thoughts.
post #119 of 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr1952 View Post

That flex is adjustable, I am currently using the most flexible insert and find the flex to be fine for me. The boots come with three different composite inserts for adjustment, and the have a metal one if you really want it to be stiff. Which liner you use also affects that stiffness. I tried the performance liner with the most flexible insert and it was very stiff.  These boots are very adjustable compared to conventional boots.

From what I understood, my buddy was using the stiff configuration (liners and shell) and was still quite off from a high performance boot (like I said, he suggested 100 flex).
post #120 of 283
Thread Starter 

I think you guys are ripping it much harder than I do, it sounds like you are skiing at a very high level.  I agree you probably wont see these boots on someone standing in a starting gate. I will add I crank the BOA down as hard as I can.

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