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Ski history, what happened?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

Lets start with a cave painting of skis.

ancientskier.gif

 

 

Twin tip, camber underfoot, HUGE tip rocker.

 

 

 

86367.jpg

 

No idea when these came in, but tapered tip and tail, minimal (if any) side cut, low but early tip and tail rise.

 

ipsheming-mich-1928.jpg?1264048082

 

1928. Minimal side cut HUGE tip rise.

 

 

 

 Late 1950s,  snow cat (and grooming) gains popularity.

 

 

 

18920.JPG

 

1960 Lots of camber, flat tail, still very large tip rise.

 

 

215125328_62e53da65a.jpg

 

80's-90's. Yea...

 

Then something strange happened in 2000, the ski world was shocked, how could it ever work? What a stupid idea. REAL skiers would never use such a crutch.

biglines_52909.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/end drunk rant.

 

post #2 of 21

I thought it was interesting, Mr. K.* Got anything for the past ten years?

 

*Featured it on the home page...

post #3 of 21

Nice research!  icon14.gif

post #4 of 21

Need it, Want it, need it, need it, got it, need it, got it, got it, had it, need it. had it, want it, had it. 

post #5 of 21

Sweet research for all the DP invented rocker and Volant invented reverse sidecut types...

post #6 of 21

Funny thing is RossiSmash has everything here and skis them. Ott+Wedeln.gif

 

 

Those Spatulas still look outrageous IMHO....more so that they are the prerequisite Volant metal.

 

 

P.S. Kudos for the return of the inebriated post....we need more of these!

post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

Sweet research for all the DP invented rocker and Volant invented reverse sidecut types...



Volant invented early rise.

post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Volant invented early rise.



Wasn't that just because they bent so easily?  rolleyes.gif


Edited by Rossi Smash - 3/24/11 at 2:45am
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post

Funny thing is RossiSmash has everything here and skis them. 

 

Those Spatulas still look outrageous IMHO....more so that they are the prerequisite Volant metal.

 

P.S. Kudos for the return of the inebriated post....we need more of these!



RR.....

 

Actually MastersRacer skis on gear decades older than I do!!!  icon14.gif

 

My cut off is the late '60's

 

post #10 of 21

I have a pair of Head Competition Vectors you can borrow.

They pretty much define stiff and cambered.

You might want to replace the Geze longthongs tho....biggrin.gif

post #11 of 21

Anyone know about the Fischer Pines ski?

I was told it was one of the first to have rocker back in the 80's.

I saw a reference to it on epic on a thread from '05 - "The worst ski ever?" no information though.

post #12 of 21

Well look at these things that, who else, Rossi has:

Reverse sidecut, and supposedly reverse camber? (according to comprex)

Rossi what say you?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

SHORT-EE WEDELN SKIS Permite. Brattleboro, Vermont , 119cm, 1960's

 

SHORT-EE tips.jpg

 

 

bottoms.jpgSkis 60's WEDELN SHORT-EE.jpg



 

post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Well look at these things that, who else, Rossi has:

Reverse sidecut, and supposedly reverse camber? (according to comprex)

Rossi what say you?

 



 



Sorry.....I just have those pictures, not the skis.

 

post #14 of 21

Well, check this article out: (it's long)

http://www.skiinghistory.org/Taylor.html

The Strange Long History of the Short Ski by Morten Lund

 

Actually, I've found the original article in Ski Heritage Journal Vol 14, number 1 .

scanned by google. It has many more photos.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wlgEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=&rview=1#v=onepage&q&f=false


From the article:

Cliff Taylor developed those skis. Originally, the Shortees were 5 foot long:

Quote:
 Clif reasoned that the major weakness of sawed-off skis was their tendency to wobble rather than track, so he designed a straight-sided five-footer tapering back to the tail without sidecut, guessing that straight sides would promote tracking.
 

 The ones in the photos above look like the 3 foot model.

Quote:

 But he had one more giant step to go. One day at Hogback it was so icy no one could ski. Clif decided to cut a ski down to three feet—it worked like a charm. He could ski ice! Then it hit him: might it be possible for a novice to learn to ski parallel on three-foot skis, like John Hooper, without spending years sweating the stem? The thought was enough to curl his hair.

In 1960, he took a deep breath and designed his first three-footer, and sent the drawings to Paris, Maine. Back came the first 32-inch Shortees.
 

 

The seemingly reverse sidecut may just be the distortion from the camera lens.

post #15 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

The seemingly reverse sidecut may just be the distortion from the camera lens.



I would still call it reverse side cut, given the tip and tail taper.

post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post





Wasn't that just because they bent so easily?  rolleyes.gif


yeah, so? cool.gif

 

post #17 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

I thought it was interesting, Mr. K.* Got anything for the past ten years?

 

*Featured it on the home page...



I was hoping other people would add and help answer the question of "what happened". I only noticed this while waiting for my order in a carl's jr a few weeks ago. They have a print of an antique skiing photo (30's maybe) and I noticed the tips on my JJ's paled in comparison.

 

I touched skis for the first time 3 years ago, right when the current rocker craze seemed to start.

 

Did everyone go groomer crazy? Am I right in thinking that "back country style" skiing became uncool, but now everyone is realizing how much more fun skiing 3d terrain is after years of being influenced by their parents who thought groomers were the best thing ever because they really weren't that good at skiing?

 

Aside from grooming, why did we start making skis so skinny?

 

The very early (cavemen) skiers had it right, they only skied ungroomed snow, and simply wanted the easiest, most effective means of crossing the pow.

 

Why is there such a resistance to the "new" technology from capable, older skiers (the ones that probably grew up skiing with their gaper parents on that awesome new groomed (easier) snow)?

 

 

 

This also makes me wonder why someone like Plake uses straight skis, perhaps simply because he can? Like the guy riding the 80's cruiser MTB on the downhill trails at Silverton, while I struggle on my 50 lb freeride bike with 8'' travel.

post #18 of 21

You really might want to learn just a little history. I recommend the Skiing Heritage Journal. Fabulous publication. Available on google books. Do a search.

 

 

Skis were skis. Backcountry skiing was done on "skinny" skis in terms of todays standards, but there was no choice of something wider.

Skis were not wide before grooming.

Grooming is a more recent phenom. - late 40's but really not super big till probably mid 70's Also, you're assuming "ungroomed" means deep soft snow. Totally untrue. In a lot of places it just means it is what it is, moguls, bumps, ruts, holes etc. Only places that get a lot of snow fall would have a lot of 3-d snow to ski regularly. Otherwise, you could be skiing very hard gnarly bumps and it would still be ungroomed.

Supposedly, the technology to make a torsionally stiff wide ski was not available before late 90's and really into the 00's. I'm not sure I buy that, but maybe someone can chime in.

 

Apparently ancient skis in mongolia were 12 -15cm wide. We're talking planks here. Steamed and bent

Ski journal couple years ago had photos of people in Mongolia still making them.

see here for description:

Nomads of South Siberia: the pastoral economies of Tuva By Sevʹi͡an Izrailevich Vaĭnshteĭn

pg. 119

http://books.google.com/books?id=tas8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA118&dq=Mongolian+ancient++skis&hl=en&ei=3eSMTb6_M4XWgQfBp5mfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mongolian%20ancient%20%20skis&f=false


Edited by Tog - 3/25/11 at 12:13pm
post #19 of 21

You have to include Snowshoe Thompson and the Sierra Nevada longboard racers in this discussion..

Camber, no sidecut, tip rise and 15-18' long!

 

 

IMG_1366.JPG

post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

You really might want to learn just a little history. I recommend the Skiing Heritage Journal. Fabulous publication. Available on google books. Do a search.

 

 

Skis were skis. Backcountry skiing was done on "skinny" skis in terms of todays standards, but there was no choice of something wider.

Skis were not wide before grooming.

Grooming is a more recent phenom. - late 40's but really not super big till probably mid 70's Also, you're assuming "ungroomed" means deep soft snow. Totally untrue. In a lot of places it just means it is what it is, moguls, bumps, ruts, holes etc. Only places that get a lot of snow fall would have a lot of 3-d snow to ski regularly. Otherwise, you could be skiing very hard gnarly bumps and it would still be ungroomed.

Supposedly, the technology to make a torsionally stiff wide ski was not available before late 90's and really into the 00's. I'm not sure I buy that, but maybe someone can chime in.

 

Apparently ancient skis in mongolia were 12 -15cm wide. We're talking planks here. Steamed and bent

Ski journal couple years ago had photos of people in Mongolia still making them.

see here for description:

Nomads of South Siberia: the pastoral economies of Tuva By Sevʹi͡an Izrailevich Vaĭnshteĭn

pg. 119

http://books.google.com/books?id=tas8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA118&dq=Mongolian+ancient++skis&hl=en&ei=3eSMTb6_M4XWgQfBp5mfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mongolian%20ancient%20%20skis&f=false




I meant 3d as in not groomed flat. I was very unclear.

 

120-150mm isn't exactly skinny.

post #21 of 21

"120mm - 150mm isn't exactly skiiny"

 

No, it's not. Those are primitive skis made in essentially the wilderness.

 

Recreational production skis were never that wide till very recently. As far as I know.

 


"I meant 3d as in not groomed flat. I was very unclear."

 

 The point is that "not groomed flat" or "ungroomed" does not mean it's soft snow. Most trails used to be "ungroomed" but were not flat nor soft necessarily.

If people ski on the same trails it then becomes bumpy and not flat, but also can be hard as a rock. This is still "ungroomed" but not exactly the conditions ideal for a 120mm ski.

 

Here's the Mongolian skis.

This from Ski Journal Vol. Two, Number Four

 

Making the skis. I think the width is based on flotation and also a size that's comfortable to work on.

 

MongolianSkisMaking.jpg

Photos: Dave Waag. Ski Journal Vol. Two, Number Four

 

Finished Product.  Reverse sidecut, early  rise?, massive tip curve, very little camber, integrated horse skins.

MongolianSkisPictured.jpg

 

Photos Dave Waag. Ski Journal Vol. Two, Number Four

 

 

Here's what it says about the skis in the text:

 

Quote:
 

"Their ski design- wide underfoot, narrower at the top and tail, and really carved up- was just ideal for the snow there," Naheed says.  "The width allows the ski to stay on top of that wet, faceted snow and float.  You could see they'd thought about their designs.  They could point out what was wrong with our skis, that they were too light, too narrow for the conditions."

 Lisa Richardson, Ski Journal Vol 2, 4; pg 043

 

 

These stills are from the Altai Project which produced a film, "Skiing in the Shadow of Genghis Khan"

by Nils Larsen, Dave Waag, and Naheed Henderson

See here:

http://www.vintagewinter.com/blogs/blog/2327012-indigenous-skiing-in-the-altai-mountains-of-nw-china

 

Here's the dvd :

http://www.vintagewinter.com/products/skiing-in-the-shadow-of-genghis-khan-dvd

Skiing in the Shadow of Genghis Khan DVD

http://www.vintagewinter.com/products/skiing-in-the-shadow-of-genghis-khan-dvd

 

btw, I just discovered that there was a film after scanning the photos and looking it up. I haven't seen it yet.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Tog - 3/26/11 at 10:21am
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