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98-105mm, double rise w/camber under foot...what's out there?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

Looking to demo (and eventually buy) a double-rise w/camber ski that is approximately 98-105mm wide.  Here are the ones that I know about...

 

Rossignol S3

Dynastar 6th Sense Slicer

Blizzard The One

Fischer Watea 98

Blizzard Bonafide (2011-2012)

Scott Dozer

ON3P Jeronimo

 

What else am I missing that's out there or upcoming?

post #2 of 19

Definitely check out Line Prophet 100s.  A fantastic ride provided you're strong/heavy enough to flex them.

 

post #3 of 19

Isn't the S3 rockered? 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by savechief View Post

Looking to demo (and eventually buy) a double-rise w/camber ski that is approximately 98-105mm wide.  Here are the ones that I know about...

 

Rossignol S3

Dynastar 6th Sense Slicer

Blizzard The One

Fischer Watea 98

Blizzard Bonafide (2011-2012)

Scott Dozer

ON3P Jeronimo

 

What else am I missing that's out there or upcoming?


But check out next year's Kastle's FX104

 

post #4 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceDude View Post

Isn't the S3 rockered? 


 


It's rockered and has camber. Not all of the skis on that list are. Some of them are flat w/rocker. I think that's what he means by double-rise unless he just means twintip which the Bonafide for example is not.

 

post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




It's rockered and has camber. Not all of the skis on that list are. Some of them are flat w/rocker. I think that's what he means by double-rise unless he just means twintip which the Bonafide for example is not.

 

 

I'll attempt to clarify what I'm looking for.  I'm not necessarily looking for a fully symmetrical twin-tip, but wouldn't rule one out.  I am looking for some amount of traditional camber under foot (which of the skis that I mentioned above have *zero* traditional camber?...I might want to rule them out) and "rocker" at the tip and tail.  The "rocker" I'm looking for can be subtle (i.e. early rise) or more pronounced.  The phrase "double rise" came from SierraJim's review of the S3, The One and the Slicer in his "Western Daily Drivers in the 90-100mm Range" review.
 

 

post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by savechief View Post



 

I'll attempt to clarify what I'm looking for.  I'm not necessarily looking for a fully symmetrical twin-tip, but wouldn't rule one out.  I am looking for some amount of traditional camber under foot (which of the skis that I mentioned above have *zero* traditional camber?...I might want to rule them out) and "rocker" at the tip and tail.  The "rocker" I'm looking for can be subtle (i.e. early rise) or more pronounced.  The phrase "double rise" came from SierraJim's review of the S3, The One and the Slicer in his "Western Daily Drivers in the 90-100mm Range" review.
 

 


Pretty sure the Bonafide and One are flat under foot I've never seen the Scott.

post #7 of 19

2012 Kastle MX98!!!!!!!!!!!! If you've got some spare cash of course and don't mind it having a flat tail

post #8 of 19

Things to add to the consideration list:

 

Praxis BC  = awesome (in some ways not the best name as it is a really nice all-around alpine ski) 

 

The DPS Wailer 105 looks to be a super sweet ski as well in this general realm - someone on TGR is looking to move an undrilled pair..

 

Maybe add the K2 Kung Fujas to the list.

 

That said, generally speaking, you can run this very general class of ski wider than a conventional ski. If you are not really truly set on that "narrower"  waist width, you might also check out the Praxis Concept, DPS Wailer 112RP, S7, Obsethed, Bent Chetler, YLE, etc...  From my POV, anything much under 100 makes little sense for this sort of ski (I'd put the S3 on the narrowest limit). Just my .02...

 

The fascination with Kastle continues to elude me. Maybe if I tried them I'd feel differently. wink.gif

post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




Pretty sure the Bonafide and One are flat under foot I've never seen the Scott.


You look to be right about flat under foot according to BWPA's review (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/189378-Blizzard-quot-the-one-quot-2010-11-review).  So, I have changed my criteria to either traditional camber or flat under foot, because The One is definitely on my list of favorites to demo right now.

 

post #10 of 19

I got to demo a pair from Surface One Lifes for about a month. They are a little wider under foot (specs say 112), but I thought they were a lot of fun.

http://www.surfaceskis.com/gear/all%20mountain/one%20life/index.html

 

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by savechief View Post




You look to be right about flat under foot according to BWPA's review (http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/189378-Blizzard-quot-the-one-quot-2010-11-review).  So, I have changed my criteria to either traditional camber or flat under foot, because The One is definitely on my list of favorites to demo right now.

 


My Ones have a few mm of camber -- not totally flat, but very low camber. These still have just a half dozen days on them so it may flatten out a bit more in the next 10-20 ski days.

 

post #12 of 19

In the '2012 Cochise' thread, SierraJim mentioned that "The Bonafide has a fair bit of low camber through the center section while the Cochise is flat." I believe the new Blizzi Bushwacker (88mm) is also cambered, and the Bodacious (118mm) is flat like the 108mm Cochise.  

 

This category (width, at least, if not your specific needs) is hothothot, and 2012 is only going to be muddier (all of the above plus Prophet 98, LPR 105, more).  I am going to have to win the lottery and quit my job to find time to ride them all...

post #13 of 19

Here are some clarifications as far as what I mean by some of the terms I've used. Nothing rocket science here, just a way to try and differentiate some stuff.

 

  • Double rise: IMO this is not "Rocker". Rather it is tip and tail rise with a conventionally cambered or flat center section. This has nothing to do with being a twin or not
  • Rocker: Basically continuous reverse camber from tip to tail without a notable flat or cambered center.
  • Tip Rise: Obvious, and usually combined with camber in the remainder of the ski.

 

The OP stated double rise w/camber and his list is pretty accurate. The "One" varies a bit with some being flat in the middle and some showing a very minimal camber. Some other skis mentioned in the thread meet his criteria, but most do not.

 

  • Bonafide is cambered in the center section with double rise.
  • Cochise is flat in the center section with double rise.
  • Prophet 100 has no rise at all and is conventionally cambered.
  • Prophet 98 and 105 are tip only with camber.
  • Katle MX 98 is tip only w/camber
  • Kastle FX 104 is conventional

 

There are myriads of choices in this broad width range for 2012 including many new (and very good) ones. The majority are tip rise with camber and in most cases the amount of rise and length of the run are rather moderate. The Bonafide and Cochise are obvious exceptions with both having double rise and the run on those is toward the longer end of the group. There are still a few skis in this range that I would classify as fully conventional. In most cases the skis with more dramatic amounts of rise are in the ~~ 110 and up range.

 

SJ

post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraJim View Post

Here are some clarifications as far as what I mean by some of the terms I've used. Nothing rocket science here, just a way to try and differentiate some stuff.

 

  • Double rise: IMO this is not "Rocker". Rather it is tip and tail rise with a conventionally cambered or flat center section. This has nothing to do with being a twin or not
  • Rocker: Basically continuous reverse camber from tip to tail without a notable flat or cambered center.
  •  


These definitions are rather divergent from the terms in general use. If you look anywhere from several years worth of definitional threads and debates here (and TGR & likely NS) to various companies' marketing glossaries, you'll find something more like:

 

Rocker = "double rise" = some variation on the theme of flat or cambered mid section with early rise tip and tail. While IIRC DPS claims to have introduced the term (and may well have), the Pontoon and Hellbent (flat midsections) took it to the masses and popularized the term. Sometimes the term "hybrid camber" (or similar) seems to be used used synonymously. Current well known popular models would include S7, Bent Chetler, Obsethed, etc...

 

Reverse Camber  = continuous curve with no flat spot (or maybe a super limited one if being a bit looser). Examples are Spatula, Praxis Powder, 4FRNT Renegade and several recent Volkl ELP models. Not too many of these...

 

Sometimes "rocker" is used more broadly to encompass both of the above or even include just front early rise. Obviously this broader definition is more of a catch-all, less precise & context dependent.

 

Redefining terms that have been settling in for a number of years seems likely to introduce confusion...

post #15 of 19


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post


 

Redefining terms that have been settling in for a number of years seems likely to introduce confusion...



I don't recall stating that I was defining anything. Rather, I made it very clear that I was clarifying the terms as I used them and as I desired them to be understood and within the context of the reviews or discussions where I used them.

 

SJ

 

 

 

 

 

post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




Pretty sure the Bonafide and One are flat under foot I've never seen the Scott.


 "the one" came flat some came camber there pretty much is no difference in skiing them. The Bonafide has camber but a longer and more splayed early rise in the tip and tail compared to "the one".

 

The interesting thing is despite having more rocker the bonafide and other freemountain line of skis actually feel quite normal while skiing, well except you can do MUCH more turn shapes than other skis. Hard to explain till you ski them.

 

post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Casey View Post

I got to demo a pair from Surface One Lifes for about a month. They are a little wider under foot (specs say 112), but I thought they were a lot of fun.

http://www.surfaceskis.com/gear/all%20mountain/one%20life/index.html

 


Did you find the One Lifes to be as stiff as the Surface website indicates they are?  As a side note, I wish that in this day of double rise, rocker, reverse camber (whatever you prefer to call it), I wish that more companies would include side profiles of their skis like Surface has.

 

post #18 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by savechief View Post



As a side note, I wish that in this day of double rise, rocker, reverse camber (whatever you prefer to call it), I wish that more companies would include side profiles of their skis like Surface has.

 


It would be nice - but keep in mind that it is really the combination of the flex pattern and camber that matters. The profile itself doesn't tell you that much.

 

FWIW my The One shows almost no camber on a flat surface and very little when you put skis base to base.

post #19 of 19
Take a look at the Liberty Helix. Slight camber and 105 under foot. The tip and tail have some rise as well. This is a very stable ski that turns really quick off piste.
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