New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What is ankle angulation?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

We speak of hip angulation, knee angulation and ankle angulation.

 

So what is ankle angulation?

 

Can it be done in ski boots?

 

Why do it?

post #2 of 21

Here is my take on "Ancle Agulation":

 

AncleAngulation001.jpg

post #3 of 21

There is no such thing as ancle angulation when in stiff boots. However, if you tip the foot inside the boot it will push against the sidewalls and push the boot in the same direction. In other words, you get angulation by tipping your foot, but not in the ancle.

post #4 of 21

How do you tip the foot?

post #5 of 21

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/101363/tilting-the-feet

Lots of guys tip their feet regardless.

post #6 of 21


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

There is no such thing as ancle angulation when in stiff boots.


This is correct. Apart from the sligtly falce use of the word "stiff". No proper functioning skiing boots, not even "soft" flex ones allow for "ancle angulation".

  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

However, if you tip the foot inside the boot it will push against the sidewalls and push the boot in the same direction. In other words, you get angulation by tipping your foot, but not in the ancle.


So by ancle angulation you dont angulate at the ancle but at the hip?  BTW, its pritty inefficient to to tip a 190cm tall and 95kg heavy skier by applying pressure onto into the sidewall of the boot 5cm from the snow. Thats not a lot of momentum.

 

post #7 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/101363/tilting-the-feet

Lots of guys tip their feet regardless.



Wow!  Thanks for that link Carl, I missed it!

Now I have to read through "The Foot's Role in Skiing" but I suspect I will learn something (remembering might be a problem but....).

 

 

post #8 of 21

Even in race plugs a small amount of lateral displacement of the ankle is possible TDK. Unless of course you over tighten the boots so they act like a splint. Not a practice I recommend since squeezing all the blood out of your feet interrupts profusion of oxygen and nutrients to the feet.  Another possibility is a posted footbed restricting the RoM of the sub talar joint. Even so, like I said in the other thread a few degrees of movement is quite common. I'm sure some would say "so what" but I suspect they also have custom footbeds and they have their cuffs aligned which deal with only a few degrees of adjustment. So it matters.

As far as momentum, you really don't understand the physiology if you think momentum has a lot to do with lateral RoM of the foot and lateral displacement of the ankle inside a ski boot.

post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 

Obviously, there is a whole lot to this foot thing what with 26 bones, 33 joints and 19 muscles in one foot and the movements of pronation/supination, inversion/eversion, etc. etc. that I am certainly not qualified to address.

At the risk of pi**ing off Crudbuster, it may be simpler to call it tipping the feet. 

By tipping the feet, I mean within the foot and not tipping the tibia, knees and legs that might cause the feet to tip.  I said ankle angulation to reflect this "in the foot movement" but admit I am over simplyfying and/or using the wrong terminology.

 

Do you ever try to pressure the different sides of your foot?  Put more pressure on the big toe side and the little toe side?  Lift the big toe and the little toe?  Pressure one side of the boot cuff one way and the other side the other way?  If you do, I would content that something is moving within your foot to do that.  Yes, within your boot.  Different muscles are being engaged and relaxed.

 

How about this?

Try some Railroad Tracks (RRT's) on a gentle slope - like the outrun of the beginner hill.

Just take one foot for example.

Press on the big toe side of your foot.  I would venture to guess that you will feel more cuff pressure above that big toe side.

To me, that means I tipped my tibia to create that pressure to push my boot over towards that side.

Now do the run again and this time lift the little toe of that same foot.  I would venture to guess that this time you might feel more cuff pressure on the little toe side pressing your tibia in order to tilt it. 

The first came from above the foot, the second from the foot itself. 

Thats what I call ankle angulation.

Is it a small movement?  Yes.  If your boot cuff went up to below your knees it would not be possible or it's affects would be unnoticable.  If your boots are stiff, the movemnts would be smaller but, I think, still there.

 

Does thinking about tipping your feet make a difference?  I think so.  It starts a turn from the ground up.

post #10 of 21



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 


So by ancle angulation you dont angulate at the ancle but at the hip?  BTW, its pritty inefficient to to tip a 190cm tall and 95kg heavy skier by applying pressure onto into the sidewall of the boot 5cm from the snow. Thats not a lot of momentum.

 

Primarily knee angulation, but also hip. I also like to see it as a balancing thing. When you are standing on one leg you balance primarily with the foot, so why shouldnt you when skiing.

 

With stiff boots I meant alpine boots. I can ancle angulate in my cross country boots.
 

 

post #11 of 21

I dont like the word "ancle angulation". I think its much more descriptive to talk about "rolling the ancle". The word "tipping" should be limited to the ski tipping onto its edge. "Tipping movements" are then a completely different issue. And one approach to tipping movements is adapting the theory of the kinetic chain principle starting at the ancle. From CarlR's link to the thread about "tipping the feet" there was missing the option of only rolling the new inside ancle leaving the new outside stance leg ancle unaltered. I for example have a problem with rolling my stance leg ancle onto its BTE but I can roll my inside leg ancle onto its LTE. I think its a bit like a side kick in karate. There the kicking legs ancle is inverted much like when making a carved turn where my weight and turn forces are providing my outside ski edge with lots of pressure and I use it to balance over it but I need to manually "digg" in my new inside ski LTE edge into the snow for better edge engagement. What it actually does it helps me tipp my inside leg to avoid A-frame.

 

Skiing with nordic skis is a very good experiance. When you do that you will notice how much you resort to your alpine ski boots for latteral support. But I dont see it as a very negative thing. I think that its very usefull with good ancle support. I have somtimes used rental boots and its a horrifying experiance. My foam race boots provide my feet with a very snugg fit. When I race I tighten my boots much tighter than I do if I ski just for fun. Tightening my boots for a race restricts my ancle movement and makes its possible to relax my outside foot ancle insted of straining it under heavy load.

post #12 of 21



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Even in race plugs a small amount of lateral displacement of the ankle is possible TDK. Unless of course you over tighten the boots so they act like a splint. Not a practice I recommend since squeezing all the blood out of your feet interrupts profusion of oxygen and nutrients to the feet.  Another possibility is a posted footbed restricting the RoM of the sub talar joint. Even so, like I said in the other thread a few degrees of movement is quite common. I'm sure some would say "so what" but I suspect they also have custom footbeds and they have their cuffs aligned which deal with only a few degrees of adjustment. So it matters.

As far as momentum, you really don't understand the physiology if you think momentum has a lot to do with lateral RoM of the foot and lateral displacement of the ankle inside a ski boot.


I asked a wc skier if he rolls his ancles inside the boots or not but he said that he doesent. Some coaches had suggested it but he did not find it useful. He kind of thaught there was a million more important things to pay attention to even at wc level but that was offcourse only his opinion. He also said its very individual.
 

 

post #13 of 21

The effects of moving your foot inside the boot are minimal and are fine tuning movements. Movements initiated outside the boot have much greater overall effect on edge angles and the skier's ability to maintain those edge angles. If all you did to turn was move your foot in your boot, you wouldn't make much of a turn. Moving your foot in your boot can be a trigger to make other movements. Telling someone to pressure the little toe for instance will initiate a chain of events resulting in changes of position throughout the body with the desired result being more edge angle. This occurs because the mind will instinctively make the movements in the body to create more pressure on the little toe.

 

When I race in DH and need to make a high speed, large radius turn, I'll adjust the pressure of my foot on the footbed in the boot. I generally end up doing a 'white pass' style turn as a result. I will apply more pressure to the inside little toe edge of the inside ski by rolling onto my little toe so my ski goes from a neutral position to being slightly on the little toe edge. During this turn I am actively maintaining my body position so the pressure on the little toe edge is the only thing that changes. This works well when I only need minor adjustments to direction and especially on soft snow. This is about the only time that I conciously use movement inside my boots to ski. I believe there are some movements being made subconciously inside the boot all the time to support the angulation I'm creating in other parts of my body, however those are similar to the activity of my foot when I am standing still on one foot. They are automatic.

 

 


Edited by MastersRacer - 3/22/11 at 6:30pm
post #14 of 21


Oh, you mean the White Pass Turn you showed us three gates from the finish last weekend?

 

biggrin.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

The effects of moving your foot inside the boot are minimal and are fine tuning movements. Movements initiated outside the boot have much greater overall effect on edge angles and the skier's ability to maintain those edge angles. If all you did to turn was move your foot in your boot, you wouldn't make much of a turn. Moving your foot in your boot can be a trigger to make other movements. Telling someone to pressure the little toe for instance will initiate a chain of events resulting in changes of position throughout the body with the desired result being more edge angle. This occurs because the mind will instinctively make the movements in the body to create more pressure on the little toe.

 

When I race in DH and need to make a high speed, large radius turn, I'll adjust the pressure of my foot on the footbed in the boot. I generally end up doing a 'white pass' style turn as a result. I will apply more pressure to the inside edge of the inside ski by rolling onto my little toe so my ski goes from a neutral position to being slightly on the little toe edge. During this turn I am actively maintaining my body position so the pressure on the little toe edge is the only thing that changes. This works well when I only need minor adjustments to direction and especially on soft snow. This is about the only time that I conciously use movement inside my boots to ski. I believe there are some movements being made subconciously inside the boot all the time to support the angulation I'm creating in other parts of my body, however those are similar to the activity of my foot when I am standing still on one foot. They are automatic.

 

 



 

post #15 of 21

Like I said TDK, even the type of footbed you use can effect how much RoM you have inside your boot. Is it more than a few degrees? Nope. That doesn't mean we can overlook the foot's movement inside the boot and how we actively and consciously shift pressure inside the boot? Eventually, when you groove a move (like MR has), you can use it in an unconsciously competent way. Until then you need to go through the three earlier phases of learning. Unconscious incompetence (don't know you suck), Conscious incompetence (you know you suck), conscious competence (you know you can execute the move properly) and finally when you have experienced all of that you can use unconscious competence (you do the learned move instinctively). Like knee angulation it's a personal choice and has to do with personal movement biases in each joint.

post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

The effects of moving your foot inside the boot are minimal and are fine tuning movements. Movements initiated outside the boot have much greater overall effect on edge angles and the skier's ability to maintain those edge angles. If all you did to turn was move your foot in your boot, you wouldn't make much of a turn. Moving your foot in your boot can be a trigger to make other movements. Telling someone to pressure the little toe for instance will initiate a chain of events resulting in changes of position throughout the body with the desired result being more edge angle. This occurs because the mind will instinctively make the movements in the body to create more pressure on the little toe.

 

 

 


  Like that!  icon14.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

When I race in DH and need to make a high speed, large radius turn, I'll adjust the pressure of my foot on the footbed in the boot. I generally end up doing a 'white pass' style turn as a result. I will apply more pressure to the inside edge of the inside ski by rolling onto my little toe so my ski goes from a neutral position to being slightly on the little toe edge. During this turn I am actively maintaining my body position so the pressure on the little toe edge is the only thing that changes. This works well when I only need minor adjustments to direction and especially on soft snow. This is about the only time that I conciously use movement inside my boots to ski. I believe there are some movements being made subconciously inside the boot all the time to support the angulation I'm creating in other parts of my body, however those are similar to the activity of my foot when I am standing still on one foot. They are automatic. 

 

MR, I hope you mean outside edge above.  Either that or my feet are pointing the wrong way cause my little toe side is on the outside.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro  
 
Unconscious incompetence (don't know you suck), Conscious incompetence (you know you suck), conscious competence (you know you can execute the move properly) and finally when you have experienced all of that you can use unconscious competence (you do the learned move instinctively). 

 

Great love it!  Why did some skiers immediately come to mind in each category?.

post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post




  Like that!  icon14.gif

 

 

MR, I hope you mean outside edge above.  Either that or my feet are pointing the wrong way cause my little toe side is on the outside.
 

 


Yes, you are correct. The outside (little toe) edge of the inside ski.
 

 

post #18 of 21

Please read the Ski Instruction and Coaching forum posting guidelines.  As a community of open dialog on skiing and snowsports, Epicski's stance is that terms such as "right or wrong" and "good or bad" have a poor application in productive technique discussions. Please remember that technique values and experiences are subjective to each person, and it's OK to disagree with another poster's opinions without character attacks, slander or disrespect. Be aware that satire, sarcasm, patronizing or facetious comments, intended as humor, may not be read in the tone intended. Do not label or stereotype other members or their skiing.  Disruptive posts may be subject to deletion or closing of the thread.
Thank you!

post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post




Yes, you are correct. The outside (little toe) edge of the inside ski.
 

 

LTE is indeed a better term, because in this context you don't know if inside means inside relative to the foot, or inside relative to the turn (which I assume you were assuming in your original post)
 

 

post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Like I said TDK, even the type of footbed you use can effect how much RoM you have inside your boot. Is it more than a few degrees? Nope. That doesn't mean we can overlook the foot's movement inside the boot and how we actively and consciously shift pressure inside the boot? Eventually, when you groove a move (like MR has), you can use it in an unconsciously competent way. Until then you need to go through the three earlier phases of learning. Unconscious incompetence (don't know you suck), Conscious incompetence (you know you suck), conscious competence (you know you can execute the move properly) and finally when you have experienced all of that you can use unconscious competence (you do the learned move instinctively). Like knee angulation it's a personal choice and has to do with personal movement biases in each joint.



This is correct. We should not overlook the importance of the footbed. After all the boot is the most important pc of equipment both for ski comfort and performance and the footbed is what supports us throughout the whole day. Starting your tipping movements by inverting your outside ski leg ancle and inverting your inside ski leg ancle is one way of approaching tipping movements. But this will not help us any if we cannot initiate a clean carved turn. So far I have not stubled onto any skier that had a problem with tipping the skis on edge. But stumbled onto many skiers that could not initiate a clean carved turn. Or keeping the skis tracking edge locked. Especially on a racing track.

post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowhawk View Post

By tipping the feet, I mean within the foot and not tipping the tibia, knees and legs that might cause the feet to tip.  I said ankle angulation to reflect this "in the foot movement" but admit I am over simplyfying and/or using the wrong terminology.

 

Do you ever try to pressure the different sides of your foot?  Put more pressure on the big toe side and the little toe side?  Lift the big toe and the little toe?  Pressure one side of the boot cuff one way and the other side the other way?  If you do, I would content that something is moving within your foot to do that.  Yes, within your boot.  Different muscles are being engaged and relaxed.

 

How about this?

Try some Railroad Tracks (RRT's) on a gentle slope - like the outrun of the beginner hill.

Just take one foot for example.

Press on the big toe side of your foot.  I would venture to guess that you will feel more cuff pressure above that big toe side.

To me, that means I tipped my tibia to create that pressure to push my boot over towards that side.

Now do the run again and this time lift the little toe of that same foot.  I would venture to guess that this time you might feel more cuff pressure on the little toe side pressing your tibia in order to tilt it. 

The first came from above the foot, the second from the foot itself. 

Thats what I call ankle angulation.

Is it a small movement?  Yes.  If your boot cuff went up to below your knees it would not be possible or it's affects would be unnoticable.  If your boots are stiff, the movemnts would be smaller but, I think, still there.

 

Does thinking about tipping your feet make a difference?  I think so.  It starts a turn from the ground up.



 Sean Warman, former PSIA Demo Team member, had a boot-off/boot-on progression for experiencing what Snowhawk describes here.  It's a nuance muscle use thing that participates in the differentiation between a good skier and a great one.

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching