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Help: I want to short carve like the korean guy on the interski videos

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

I think I have the long carved turns down. But with short carves I feel I'm sitting back too far. I'm trying this thing where I lift both skis off the ground and recoil both legs at transition. I can get few turns in but then I feel I'm losing control. It also feels like a lot of work. Should it? Any pointers to get me going in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

 

post #2 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ki8um View Post

I think I have the long carved turns down. But with short carves I feel I'm sitting back too far. I'm trying this thing where I lift both skis off the ground and recoil both legs at transition. I can get few turns in but then I feel I'm losing control. It also feels like a lot of work. Should it? Any pointers to get me going in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

 



if you watched the korean video he is using a ton of foot squirt and generally very AFT in his whole turn except right in the falline where he is slammed into the front of his boot. If you watch he even streaches out by sitting on his tails before he even starts his turns.

 

The koreans(and the other Eastern Asia counties) seem really open to radical from a american stand point ideas on balance. They are embracing AFT transitions and it has let them make them a rounder more dynamic carved turn than just anybody else.

 

 

 

post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 

Umm... I looked up the term "foot squirt" (it's copyrighted!) but I didn't get a very clear definition. I've also seen videos of "cross-under turns" and "two-footed release" and they also look very similar. It's possible that I'm still very green. Having no formal training doesn't help much either. I apologize for my inexperience but I'd love to learn. Thanks in advance.

post #4 of 27

Short turns are more work than long turns. Short turns are also not carved turns. A typical carving ski has a 9-11 meter turning radius. Without accounting for bending the ski, that would mean a minimum of 18 meters downhill per turn. If the turns you are talking about are the turns I'm thinking of (the snaky very short radius turns), those look to be at most 3-4 meters per turn. The snakiness comes from tipping  the edges more to help the ski turn quicker, but the skis have to be guided (i.e. skidding vs carving) in order to make turns that short. The trick is that guiding needs to come from pivoting the skis with the pivot point underneath the foot (as opposed to being the tip of the skis). If you are feeling loss of control, you probably are not staying over the center of the skis as they snake (accelerate) forward. This will make it extremely difficult to pivot the skis underfoot.

 

Video would be most helpful for providing specific pointers. Otherwise I'm just guessing...

 

The first drill to do is called "railroad tracks" (pure carving with no steering). The second drill to do is multiple flat spin 360s (no air) - keep the spin falling straight down the fall line - no drift left or right. Do the rotations clockwise and counter clockwise. This is pure skidding combined with pure steering of the skis. The third drill is a "falling leaf" variation. Start with a slide slip, then let it drift left and right, then let the drifts end with an uphill component so that your path ends up looking like the path of a leaf falling to the ground, then turn the falling leaf track from a "U" shape to a "W" (double U vs double V) shape with the second coming as a result of flipping the lateral direction of travel from forward to backward or vice versa (do them both). This combines skidding with edge control and pressure management. The next drill is shuffling your feet through the turns. There are tons of variations (shuffling through the entire turn, shuffle only the top half, only the bottom half or only at transition). The main goal of this drill is to get you stay centered over the skis through subtle movement of the core. The final drill is a funnel drill. Start with larger radius turns and gradually make them smaller until you lose it or get to your desired turn size.

 

Short radius turns are harder to perform well because the timing of the movements is quicker. This is more athletic skiing. You have to put all of the skills together to make this happen. Inefficient movements cause problems quicker. Lack of skill shows up quicker. Opportunities to cheat (e.g. push the heels) are more tempting. Although everything has to be done quicker, you still have to have patience to let the skis do as much of the work as possible.

post #5 of 27

Hmm - I see Bush has posted something that looks opposite of some of my observations/advice. I did not intend that. There is common meaning between our posts.

 

WRT to foot squirt,  when you get very aft - the skis jet forward (taking the feet with them). The only way to get from that position to slamming the feet in the front of the boot is .....

going through center.

post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Short turns are more work than long turns. Short turns are also not carved turns. A typical carving ski has a 9-11 meter turning radius. Without accounting for bending the ski, that would mean a minimum of 18 meters downhill per turn. If the turns you are talking about are the turns I'm thinking of (the snaky very short radius turns), those look to be at most 3-4 meters per turn. The snakiness comes from tipping  the edges more to help the ski turn quicker, but the skis have to be guided (i.e. skidding vs carving) in order to make turns that short. The trick is that guiding needs to come from pivoting the skis with the pivot point underneath the foot (as opposed to being the tip of the skis). If you are feeling loss of control, you probably are not staying over the center of the skis as they snake (accelerate) forward. This will make it extremely difficult to pivot the skis underfoot.

 


This is it! This is my issue! Thanks, I'll try the drills.

 

It's true they aren't pure carved turns. But there's a little bit of arc at each turn.

 

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post #7 of 27

It's not necessary to lift your skis off the ground, and the Koreans don't. They get light sometimes when managing rebound, but it's not a general requirement.

 

BWPA observes correctly with regard to the Koreans, but I find it difficult to maintain a rapid turn cadence from the back seat. It takes more muscle than I have. YMMV.

 

Rusty's drills are excellent and will help you stay over your feet. That's where you need to be, IMHO.

 

To initiate a new turn quickly, I want to have my balance nailed. If I shove my tails out to make a shorter turn, the next turn will be slow to initiate. If I'm aft, it seems to take more muscle and time to initiate. If I stand over my arches, touch the front of the boot with my shin, and tip the skis with some knee angulation (no tipping the shoulders uphill!), I'm primed to: 

a) finish the current turn by guiding the tips until the turn is as complete as I want it to be and

b) initiate the next turn early, to keep the cadence rapid and the turns short.

 

If you have trouble initiating rapidly, chances are there was something ineffective about the previous turn.

 

post #8 of 27

When I watched the Korean ski, all I could do was laugh.  Why would you want to ski like that???

post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

When I watched the Korean ski, all I could do was laugh.  Why would you want to ski like that???


 

Because they get the most ski performance out of any of the skiers on the video? I'd sure as hell prefer to ski like the Koreans than the PSIA or Italians in that video. Not saying that I ski better than any of those guys, just who I would like to ski like.

 

As for how to make a short turn like the Koreans, I wouldn't say being centred through the whole turn and turning your legs would be the key, that'll help you ski like the PSIA guy. The things that stood out to me from the Koreans turns were their very low stance, strong flexion at initiation and high edge angles. How they might teach it to you, I have no idea.

 

 

post #10 of 27

Buried elsewhere in all of the Interski clips was a discussion of trying to get lateral movement of the center of mass into short radius turns like it was a hard thing to accomplish. Or at least harder to do than what the Koreans were doing. Not saying it's true, just saying it was a point of discussion. I always thought you wanted to keep the center of mass going straight down the fall line (e.g. bump skiing).

 

As to why one would want to ski like that, although the usefulness of those turns is debatable, it is a cool sensation. Although I've never done this on skis (been close in the bumps), I do it often on my board.. You have to get your hips lower to the ground to get the feet out further away from the body to help get those higher edge angles. The turns feel fully carved and the conscious control movements are 50% tipping, 50% retraction/extension of the legs and 0% guiding/pivoting.

post #11 of 27


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

Buried elsewhere in all of the Interski clips was a discussion of trying to get lateral movement of the center of mass into short radius turns like it was a hard thing to accomplish. Or at least harder to do than what the Koreans were doing. Not saying it's true, just saying it was a point of discussion. I always thought you wanted to keep the center of mass going straight down the fall line (e.g. bump skiing).

 

As to why one would want to ski like that, although the usefulness of those turns is debatable, it is a cool sensation. Although I've never done this on skis (been close in the bumps), I do it often on my board.. You have to get your hips lower to the ground to get the feet out further away from the body to help get those higher edge angles. The turns feel fully carved and the conscious control movements are 50% tipping, 50% retraction/extension of the legs and 0% guiding/pivoting.



It worked pretty well banking in the slush, but you're right. 

 

Can we think of it as "use your feet to move your COM vs. using your COM to move your feet"? 

post #12 of 27

Rusty, a 9-11 m ski can easily make 4-5 m turns given enough edging and pressure. Just look what Marcel Hirscher is doing with 14 m skis in the WC.

 

Further, I don't think the Koreans are sking out of the backseat. It would not be possible to have that amount of edging out of the back seat.

 

IMO the keys to the Korean skiing is deep agressive rectraction and a lot of edging.

 

The best drill for this is to grip the poles half way down and constantly press the tips against the snow. This will force you to retract deeply. Add a lot of edging to that and you are almost there. I'd skip their pole plants though.

 

 

post #13 of 27

If you want to arc a 4 m turn on an 11 m ski, you will have to tip it up on it's edge, past 45 degrees, until it is about 70 degrees to the snow.

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

 

Can we think of it as "use your feet to move your COM vs. using your COM to move your feet"? 


My philosophy is doesn't matter if what you think is right or not as long as it works. This gets instructors in trouble sometimes because they tell someone to think one way and it works well for that student. Then word gets passed around that is "the way" to do something. Personally I'm more worried about getting results and less worried about reuse of advice elsewhere. So although I prefer to think of the COM moving the feet, if using the feet to move the COM works for you, then by all means go for it.

 

post #15 of 27


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

 

IMO the keys to the Korean skiing is deep agressive rectraction and a lot of edging.

 


I agree. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

 

Quote:
The turns ... are 50% tipping, 50% retraction/extension of the legs ...

 

 

 

Quote:
 
The best drill for this is to grip the poles half way down and constantly press the tips against the snow

 

Great drill suggestion. I love drills involving brutal torture (oops - I mean that force movements to occur)! I have a snowboard drill where you alternate between touching the board and touching your shoulders.

post #16 of 27



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post


 


I agree. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great drill suggestion. I love drills involving brutal torture (oops - I mean that force movements to occur)! I have a snowboard drill where you alternate between touching the board and touching your shoulders.

Obviously it is retraction turns, but my point was that they need to be deep and really agressive. The drill is not torture, when you get the rythm you float through transition without noticable effort.

 

 

post #17 of 27


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post




My philosophy is doesn't matter if what you think is right or not as long as it works. This gets instructors in trouble sometimes because they tell someone to think one way and it works well for that student. Then word gets passed around that is "the way" to do something. Personally I'm more worried about getting results and less worried about reuse of advice elsewhere. So although I prefer to think of the COM moving the feet, if using the feet to move the COM works for you, then by all means go for it.

 


Thanks.  Trying to relate this to the Koreans (which might give you a better idea of where this came from) - when I watched them ski it reminded me of a tether-ball game.  You could see the legs swinging around like the ball and his upper body (and pole plants) were the pole.  It was almost as if his COM is locked to edge the skis and thus moved inconsistently without flow.  It seemed that some of the others were allowing there COM to move continuously and catching up with the feet (lighter pole touch and more flow). 

 

You're right again.  Magic sayings don't always

 

post #18 of 27


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

 The drill is not torture, when you get the rythm you float through transition without noticable effort.



The first part of the torture I refer to is the "you must be joking" look I get when I ask students to do certain drills. The second part is the look on my face when I see students with limited range of movements that I want to expand. In the old days it would take me forever to get results. It's the old ask for a foot to get an inch syndrome. My personal teaching philosophy is that anything that is hard to teach is a failure on the teachers part. But for certain students/student needs I've found that "torture" drills are the easy way to get students to make the desired changes. There may be drills that hit a happy medium in between these two extremes, but I don't have a lot of them in my bag of tricks. My general rule of thumb here is that drills like cowboy turns and white pass turns are extremely hard to do (i.e. torture) until you get the movements down. Once you have ingrained the movements, the drills are easy and become just a small variation on normal skiing (e.g. float without noticeable effort).

post #19 of 27



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post


 


 My personal teaching philosophy is that anything that is hard to teach is a failure on the teachers part. But for certain students/student needs I've found that "torture" drills are the easy way to get students to make the desired changes.

 Exactly. I have had a great success with this drill when teaching retraction drills to children. Its very hard for young children to understand retraction turns when they have up movements ingrained, but this drill gets them retracting withing minutes.

post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 

The first part of the torture I refer to is the "you must be joking" look I get when I ask students to do certain drills. The second part is the look on my face when I see students with limited range of movements that I want to expand. In the old days it would take me forever to get results. It's the old ask for a foot to get an inch syndrome. My personal teaching philosophy is that anything that is hard to teach is a failure on the teachers part. But for certain students/student needs I've found that "torture" drills are the easy way to get students to make the desired changes. There may be drills that hit a happy medium in between these two extremes, but I don't have a lot of them in my bag of tricks. My general rule of thumb here is that drills like cowboy turns and white pass turns are extremely hard to do (i.e. torture) until you get the movements down. Once you have ingrained the movements, the drills are easy and become just a small variation on normal skiing (e.g. float without noticeable effort).


Rusty, what were you doing differently in the old days? 

 

Torture drills are great because they call out a learner's weakest skill and force the learner to deal with it (or, for less diligent learners, just not do the drill). Bonus points for torture drills that can't be cheated at. Some of my favourite torture drills, from easy to hard:

thousand step turns (literally; I saw one instructor bash out a good six or so steps per second)

outside ski turns

javelin turns

dolphin turns

charleston turns (maybe you guys call these whitepass? inside ski turns)
spiess
One foot short radius
post #21 of 27

In the old days, my bag of tricks was smaller, the skis weren't shaped and I wasn't nearly as good at diagnosing root causes as I am now. I had a lot more students for whom I could get some marginal improvement during the lesson, but not enough in 90 minutes to make the changes stick. Now, my goal is to get every student to go "wow" during the lesson, get a major change happen in the lesson and get at least some of it to "stick" after I leave. I'm not at 100% yet, but my hit rate is a lot higher.

post #22 of 27

Is it possible to see a video of the turns

post #23 of 27
Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

charleston turns (maybe you guys call these whitepass? inside ski turns)

 

I never heard the term "Charleston" for this. GREAT name. Five years ago or so, when I was just starting to grok what arc-to-arc felt like, I had an experience I'll never forget. I was visiting my brother who lives in PA, and we were skiing at a tiny little area with about enough vertical for me to make (maybe) a dozen turns top-to-bottom on my GS skis. Out of the corner of my eye, I kept seeing this guy who was doing some kind of really funky turns that were very cool to watch. They looked effortless for him - I actually think he may have had a clown wig on - but I had never seen anything like them. I had to see the guy go by three or four times before I finally understood what he was doing. He was making fast, clean, linked arc-to-arc slalom turns all the way down the hill, only on his inside foot, with the outside foot just kind of hanging out there ...as you say, like Charleston or the Lindy or something. Amazing. It was like watching Ted Ligety on acid. I have never seen anyone do anything like that since that day.

post #24 of 27

Obviously we all have strengths and weaknesses in our skiing, and I certainly have weaknesses. I certainly can't do the Ted Ligety-on-acid-with-a-clown-wig Charleston turns that I describe above, and probably never will be able to. Huge turns at cheek-flapping speeds aren't particularly my forte either. However, I don't think it's too conceited to say that on a good day I have some ability with regard to carrying off the kind of short-radius clean turns being discussed in a bunch of the posts. Some of my ski friends have asked about this too. They seem to suspect I have some kind of joint mutation or something that makes it unfairly easy for me.  ;)  Then I point out that most of the local high school slalom racers can do it too (much better than I), so it has to be something you can learn. Some of it is skis - it helps not to be on GS boards - but not all of it. I'm not an educator, so I'm likely to make a hash of this, but I'll try to articulate some of what FEELS like truth to me about this kind of turn.

 

1) Yes, I am aiming for a carved turn here, but there is something about practicing solid bump turns that helps remind me what I'm supposed to be doing with my feet / ankles / shins. This remains true even though my bump turns cover a spectrum from semi-carved to entirely skidded, and are essentially never arc-to-arc. I imagine that this is about becoming familiar with the fact - at least, I think it's a fact - that if you are going to be making a lot of turns in a short amount of time, it's mostly going to be happening from the knees down. You just don't have time to be cycling the entire length and mass of your legs back and forth from left-hip-on-the-snow to right-hip-on-the-snow when you're making turns this short and quick.

 

2) It starts with the feet and is followed by two knee dips. I have some friends who are pretty good at GS style arcs. They are patient. They wait for the ski to drift out from under them, and let it gradually carry their whole (upper and lower) leg out away from their bodies. Then they are very patient again and wait for the ski gradually to come around underneath them for the transition. It seems like they are using mostly their hips to get the angle. By contrast, when I am feeling good about my high-cadence short turns, I think I'm starting the turn using mostly some pretty aggressive foot and ankle flexing. The sensation is similar to one you can get pretty easily on ice skates, even if you're not an expert skater; you're not rotating, but you're definitely tipping and guiding forcefully with a lot of forward and lateral pressure on the cuff of the boot (skate). In the middle of the turn, I'm doing a pronounced little dip with my inside knee, but not sinking inside much with the hip or following the turn with my shoulders. This first knee dip is the catalyst or accelerator that really gets the ski coming around quickly. Then there is a second knee dip - outside knee this time - at the end, that finishes the turn and gets me to the transition quickly. I think this is what some of the more well-schooled posters are calling retraction. Making these two knee dips really assertive and meaningful, without a lot of associated leaning or hip action are, I think the pieces that a lot of people miss out on.

 

My two cents. Ignore if it seems like hogwash in your body's terms.

post #25 of 27

Just had to ask.  Is this the return of Thigh Cheese Skiing .. aka ... Tai Chi Skiing ??  eek.gif

post #26 of 27

     Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

charleston turns (maybe you guys call these whitepass? inside ski turns)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

I never heard the term "Charleston" for this. GREAT name.

 

If you jump straight to the 46 second mark of this video clip you'll see an excellent demo of the Charleston.... and no, it's NOT the same as a White Pass turn. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFB66xANk1A

 

The Charleston was an early hot dog trick popularized in the mid sixties (along with the Javelin Turn and Royal Christie) by Swiss ski racer/instructor Art Furrer (who was the face of Hart skis).  The White Pass turn is a variant of a GS racing turn developed by Phil and Steve Mahre for use in race situations that required quick turn initiation (they raced out of White Pass Washington, thus the name).  Rather than step up onto the new turning ski and roll it onto its inside edge, they would short-cut the move and simply roll onto the outside edge of their turning ski at the completion phase to initiate the turn instantly, then begin to edge and pressure the outside (proper) turning ski a moment later when it had time to 'catch up' so to speak.  This would give them a tighter, faster line.  I hear the term "White Pass" turn thrown around so often to (inaccurately) refer to generic turning on the outside edge, that I think its actual meaning is becoming lost.


Edited by exracer - 4/25/11 at 3:47pm
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post
If you jump straight to the 46 second mark of this video clip you'll see an excellent demo of the Charleston.... and no, it's NOT the same as a White Pass turn. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFB66xANk1A

 


My bad--at the time I'd never actually seen a charleston turn performed properly before and our manual's picture of a charleston turn... well... it's a picture, so it just looks like plain old one foot skiing. (To be honest I've still never seen anyone do a charleston turn in person. I'm working on it but need to get one foot short radius down first, I think.) What I was calling a charleston turn is really just skiing on the inside ski. Which I think is also different from a white pass turn. 

 

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