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Mounting position... 1 cm forward worth remount?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Hello,

 

(I did searches, but didn't find conclusive advice)

 

I recently got new boot w new BSL, so I had to have my local ski shop readjust them.  Turns out they just cranked the forward pressure screws to accommodate the 1 cm BSL change, and now the midpoint of the boot is noticeably forward from the mark on my skis (170cm Fischer WC RC Pros).

 

These, as many of you know are cheater GS skis.  (15 m radius).  I'm 5'7" 180ish.

 

 

Today, conditions were not optimal (wet PP on top was not holding edges), but still the tail of the ski felt both grippier throughout bottom of turn, but then skidded out (possibly due to snow).

 

And I was leaving TRENCHES with carves.  Not sure how much was my +20 flex with new boots, or the new boot position.  Also, all of a sudden the "cheater GS" ski feels like it's not enough ski for me (15 meters, and 170 cm way too little seeming)

 

 

Is 1 cm forward on a 170cm ski enough that I'll want to get them remounted further back, or should I just forget about it for now and just keep it how it is?  This will be for NASTAR (mini GS carving)

post #2 of 20

Keep in mind that a 1cm BSL difference would actually only put you 0.5cm in front of the line if you just move the heel piece up like they did.  Then, take into consideration that the general rule of thumb is to put new holes no closer than 1cm measured center to center from the old holes, and you'll realize that unless you decide violate that rule of thumb, you physically can't move the toe pieces back 0.5cm to compensate for your new BSL.  Honestly, you're probably best off sticking with them as is.  Your could move them back 1cm, which would put you -0.5cm from the mark, but you may or may not like them better there.

post #3 of 20

Just wait and ski them a few more times before you do anything at all.  If you do feel you need to get back 1/2 cm an alternative will be to mount a carving plate on the ski and then your bindings to the plate.

 

Mike

post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaobrien6 View Post

Keep in mind that a 1cm BSL difference would actually only put you 0.5cm in front of the line if you just move the heel piece up like they did.  Then, take into consideration that the general rule of thumb is to put new holes no closer than 1cm measured center to center from the old holes, and you'll realize that unless you decide violate that rule of thumb, you physically can't move the toe pieces back 0.5cm to compensate for your new BSL.  Honestly, you're probably best off sticking with them as is.  Your could move them back 1cm, which would put you -0.5cm from the mark, but you may or may not like them better there.


What he said. 

 

post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 

OK Guys, thanks.  But just to clarify, the midpoint on the boot is a full centimeter (probably more if I actually measured) from the midpoint mark.  So, that means before it was also a little ahead.

 

So starting point may have been +.75, and now it is at least +1.25  (it's enough that to the naked eye, it's like: "woah, the boot's center point is kind of far ahead of the center mark on the ski"

 

 

I'm fed up like mad with my local shop, so I'm going to cool off before going back in there (srs), but I was just hoping to get some insight.... like I said, if indeed it would be worth a remount.

 

This has the metal freeflex raceplate.  I am absolutely uncomfortable taking out screws to see how close the holes are... but if this is one of those things where the end result may not be perfect, then it is what it is.

post #6 of 20

Is that one of the plates that comes un-drilled or does it have pre-drilled holes?  Very easy to remount if it's pre-drilled and can be remounted if it's un-drilled and they are really more than 1cm off center.

 

Mike
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

 

 

This has the metal freeflex raceplate.  I am absolutely uncomfortable taking out screws to see how close the holes are... but if this is one of those things where the end result may not be perfect, then it is what it is.



 

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC View Post

Is that one of the plates that comes un-drilled or does it have pre-drilled holes?  Very easy to remount if it's pre-drilled and can be remounted if it's un-drilled and they are really more than 1cm off center.

 

Mike
 



 



I believe it does have pre-drilled holes in the metal without threading.  According to info here I consider reliable, there is no threading, however screwing in of the little screws creates threads, and must be tightened to 6-8 Nm of torque.  It is this last detail that I am exceedingly uncomfortable with.  I feel like I might get wrong torque and cause injury or something, and not be able to go back to how it was if I didn't like another mount.

 

On the other hand, I feel completely comfortable with adjusting my Railflex bindings on other skis, for obvious ease-of-use reasons.  DIN and forward pressure is easy, and I'm comfortable with, but I just feel like I'll mess up the screws and ruin the raceplate or something.  My torque-wrench is one of the ancient mechanical ones, not even sure if it would fit down into the binding screws.

post #8 of 20

Just don't over tighten them and you'll be fine.  If you're that worried then just take it to a shop and have them move the toe back one set of holes.  That should get your boot back near the recommended line.

 

Mike
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

I believe it does have pre-drilled holes in the metal without threading.  According to info here I consider reliable, there is no threading, however screwing in of the little screws creates threads, and must be tightened to 6-8 Nm of torque.  It is this last detail that I am exceedingly uncomfortable with.  I feel like I might get wrong torque and cause injury or something, and not be able to go back to how it was if I didn't like another mount.

 

On the other hand, I feel completely comfortable with adjusting my Railflex bindings on other skis, for obvious ease-of-use reasons.  DIN and forward pressure is easy, and I'm comfortable with, but I just feel like I'll mess up the screws and ruin the raceplate or something.  My torque-wrench is one of the ancient mechanical ones, not even sure if it would fit down into the binding screws.



 

post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 

Ok, thanks... now, if and when I go to the shop, I can tell them specifically to just move the toe piece back, and then readjust forward pressure (can't even put in words how lame some aspects of the tech department is at my ski shop, but that's a tangential issue... if straight-up requested, they will do a simple service like that).
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeC View Post

Just don't over tighten them and you'll be fine.  If you're that worried then just take it to a shop and have them move the toe back one set of holes.  That should get your boot back near the recommended line.

 

Mike
 



 



To anyone:  I forgot to ask in first post, will the forward position of my boots make the ski slower?  I read here that "getting in the backseat" accelerates the skis, so just wondering if some of the technique my body has been using to gain speed through turns will be diminished or abolished with this new position???

post #10 of 20

That's exactly why I do most of my own ski work, including mounting my own bindings.  Stone grinds and major ptex repairs are the only things I would have a shop do.

 

Mike
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post

Ok, thanks... now, if and when I go to the shop, I can tell them specifically to just move the toe piece back, and then readjust forward pressure (can't even put in words how lame some aspects of the tech department is at my ski shop, but that's a tangential issue... if straight-up requested, they will do a simple service like that).



 

post #11 of 20

The plates on your skis RC4  WC RC are pre drilled.. You could simply move the bindings your self..... It takes literally 5 min.

On my skis I can move the bindings like full inch back and forth, but never got enough time to play with it...

 

Depending on your skis size 1+ cm could make quite difference...

post #12 of 20

All you really have to worry about is keeping the screw straight when you put screw it.  Don't try to use your torque wrench and socket set bit that doesn't clear the binding; your more likely to send the screw crocked doing that than you are to not have it tight enough or too tight using a screw driver.

 

PS.  Since you already paid an agreed upon price to have your shop put the bindings in the correct spot, you could just take them back and tell them to please proceed and suggest they do it right, or better yet, walk in with your skis and ask to borrow their torque wrench and screw driver bit (if they have one that fitswink.gif)

post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtBMBW View Post


 

To anyone:  I forgot to ask in first post, will the forward position of my boots make the ski slower?  I read here that "getting in the backseat" accelerates the skis, so just wondering if some of the technique my body has been using to gain speed through turns will be diminished or abolished with this new position???


The way I understand it a more forward position makes initiating a turn easier and a more reward position makes it more stable.  I guess it could be argued that if the position is so far forward that it causes you to skid coming out of the turn, that would be slower.  The counter to that would be a position further back could cause you to turn slower making you late in the gate.  But the position is affecting turn performance and not speed.  However...

 

I'm a full believer in ball of foot over skis center running surface.  I wouldn't focus on where the manufacturers mark is so much. I would focus on where you get the best performance.  The perect mounting position is a fairly individual thing.  I also think most folks just figure out how to ski well with what they have.  In your case it might be getting more rearward coming out of the turn so you have enough pressure on the ski so it doesn't wash out.

 

Have fun,

Ken
 

 

 

post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 

Update... I actually measured the ski with a cheap tape measure from both ends to where I believe the ball of foot is (estimation based on boot bulge; couldn't be sure down to the millimeter).

 

It turns out the ball of foot is approximately on the center of the running surface.

 

But the skis feel so different.  Part of it I'm guessing is conditions.  My new boots are 1 cm size smaller, the same last (in reality slightly narrower based on smaller shell size), and 20 flex ratings stiffer. 

 

 

Maybe I'm just not used to my new boots yet?  Also, they have stock footbed which may be dampening energy transfer.

 

Will the smaller BSL result in different turning dynamics (like, think about a gear turning a wheel... the larger gear is weaker, yet easier to turn the wheel... the smaller gear (higher number in your car), is smaller and harder to leverage wheel, yet when rolling provides more distance per revolution.  FURTHERMORE, the heel being one centimeter up, means less energy is going into my ski tails.

 

So maybe will the boots be worse at lower speeds (if this effect is not offset by the increased tip-pressure conferred by the 135 flex???)

 

 

On a FLAT Nastar course with super-wide gates in the flats this past weekend, I got 13-16ish handicaps.  For me this is pretty bad.  I found it difficult to execute clean carves at such slow speeds (I can't even tell you how flat this course is).  Then again, it's my problem because obviously the pacesetter knew how to get through them.  But I don't know if there are too many other variables.  The freeskiing that day, however, was exceptional.

 

 

Like Ron LeMaster's book says in the boot section, at some point it is just time to go skiing.  I'm getting to that point, I may not even get the skis adjusted, because I'm running out of days here as the season is winding down (only have one more day in Western NY, then four at Winter Park), and I'm not sure if these adjustments will be major enough to warrant days and days of practicing.

post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 

One additional thing: the whitish areas of wear/base oxidation on the base are localized to the region under the toepiece of the binding... looking too far forward.  Don't I want the wear to be along the entire raceplate surfce?  (or at least the whole length of the boot)???

post #16 of 20

The below are quotes from your posts.  In them are your answers; skis that don't want to carve until you get to speed on a flat course, exceptional free skiing, new boots, stock foot bed and you're about at the bsl.  Sounds like everything is right where it should be.

 

170cm Fischer WC RC Pros

 

measured the ski with a cheap tape measure from both ends to where I believe the ball of foot is (estimation based on boot bulge; couldn't be sure down to the millimeter).

It turns out the ball of foot is approximately on the center of the running surface.

 

Maybe I'm just not used to my new boots yet?  Also, they have stock footbed which may be dampening energy transfer.

 

On a FLAT Nastar course with super-wide gates in the flats this past weekend, I got 13-16ish handicaps.  For me this is pretty bad.  I found it difficult to execute clean carves at such slow speeds (I can't even tell you how flat this course is).  Then again, it's my problem because obviously the pacesetter knew how to get through them.  But I don't know if there are too many other variables.  The freeskiing that day, however, was exceptional.

 

Like Ron LeMaster's book says in the boot section, at some point it is just time to go skiing.

post #17 of 20

You've probably changed as much by going to a stiffer boot as you have by moving the boot sole center forward 0.5 cm. Racing on peely snow isn't going to give you much usable feedback on the performance of either change. You should reconsider the ski's performance when you are reliable and predictable snow.

post #18 of 20

 

If it's not at least 19m published radius is it _really_ a cheater GS?   popcorn.gif

post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

If it's not at least 19m published radius is it _really_ a cheater GS?   popcorn.gif


In that line of ski, I think the longer versions have radii similar to your magic number.  I don't know what to call my ski; you can call it what you want.  For the moment, it is a very obedient illegal ski for NASTAR, and a bundle of fun when freeskiing... and that's all I care about.

 

(I honestly thought people called that line "cheater GS"... but I will say when the ski was delivered by UPS and I discovered it was a 15 (instead of 16 that I thought it would be), I myself was a little alarmed and think that is closer to a slalom than giant slalom)

 

... yeah the radius is pretty small, because when I make huge sweeping carves, and then examine my tracks from the lift, it turns out they are not huge, and wouldn't even cover a line gate to gate even in NASTAR.... so to keep carves clean in nastar I can't angulate as much as I'd like (as Ron LeMaster teaches us in his book, the tilt angle of a carve determines radius, and even a 27m ski at 60 degrees comes down to 15).

 

 

Approaching the argument from the other side, for years the FIS GS radius was 21... therefore skis is the radius range of RC Pros (15-18) were appropriately characterized as "cheater GS".

 

Now, perhaps that classification is slightly outdated.

 

 

 

What does the smiley face eating his popcorn have to say about this?

 


Edited by Vitamin Ski - 3/16/11 at 11:50am
post #20 of 20

Smiley face thinks you will really like 19-21m skis, esp in softer snow.

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